Once again, what are we to make of Zechariah 14:16-19?

DavidPT

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The Gentiles are not Jewish, they do not know when the feast of tabernacles is. They have not read the Jewish manual “ Sukkot” about the seven day harvest festival’s rules and regulations. No one is sending representatives to observe Passover in Jerusalem either, not even the Samaritans on the side of Mt. Gerazim.


I can't make heads or tails of what point you are hoping to make here?

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Based on what the text is saying here, how can you be assuming what you are? In verse 16 the text states---that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem. Did the Jews come against themselves, or did someone other than Jews come against them, as in Gentiles? And does not the text say that the ones remaining of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles?

In verse 17---all the families of the earth, is that only meaning the Jews? In verse 18, the family of Egypt, is that meaning the Jews?
 
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Andrewn

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Can you point out what portions of Zechariah 14 pertain to the future aspect of Christ's Spiritual Kingdom? And what are you meaning when you say Spiritual Kingdom, when you are applying the future to it? IOW, what does this Spiritual Kingdom look like to you when it is involving the future rather than the present? The same as it does in the present, where one is living by faith rather than by sight, where the spirit realm is not visible to the naked eye, etc?
To use a cliche that is often repeated, "the Kingdom of God is both now and not yet." We experience it now in a small measure, and will experience it in the future in full-measure. It is not that some of the things in Zec 14 are for now and others are for the future. Everything is for now in a small measure and everything is for the future in full measure. Let me comment on your step-by-step thinking:

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Remember that Jerusalem is the Church, the Apostle Paul explained this in Galatians. Contrary to Dispensationalist teaching, there has been one church since Adam and this has been subjected to violence, and still being subjected to violence and Jesus / the Lord came to earth to establish his Kingdom and now that the Church has spread all over the world and not only in Israel, Jesus still fights for the Church. Even Judah fights against Jerusalem. He already came to the Mount of Olives and issued running water from Jerusalem and will come again to the Mount of Olives with all the holy ones with him.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
This describes the punishment of those who are fighting the Church as they suffer in Gehenna.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
This describes the blessings of believers who have the opportunity to celebrate the feast of tabernacles with the Lord who tabernacled among us. We worship the King in Jerusalem, and bring him our best offerings.

If these remaining, in verse 16, are meaning any of the ones that fought against Jerusalem, how does one explain how they avoided the plague recorded in verse 12 when that verse is making it crystal clear that all ppl, not just some ppl, but all ppl that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth?
There are 3 groups: those who fight against the Church / Jerusalem, and those who fight for the Church / Jerusalem, and unbelievers who do not fight against the Church.

Regardless where one might place these events in time, it would be ludicrous for anyone to suggest that this doesn't at least involve an era of time to fulfill.
You're right.

You don't threaten the saved that has put on bodily immortality, with that of no rain if they fail to comply with what is commanded. That only applies to someone who is still mortal and still in possession of free will.

Even if verses 16-19 can somehow be applied to the past 2000 years instead, it still makes them mortal,
Both the Struggling Church and the Victorious Church need the rain of the Holy Spirit.
 
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"RAIN" definition, promised or withheld in Zechariah 14:17-19:

Righteousness. As in Hosea 10:12. "Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the Lord, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

Also in Isaiah 45:8. "Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it."

"CONSUME AWAY" definition of Zechariah 14:12:

Starvation. This plague of immediate and overwhelming starvation would unfortunately be shared by the horse, the mule, the camel, the ass, and all beasts as well in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:15). Abrupt, devastating human and animal starvation taking place while Jerusalem was under the siege predicted in Zechariah 12:2.

"EGYPT" definition in Zechariah 14:18-19:

Disobedient, Old Covenant Jerusalem. As in Revelation 11:8. "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and EGYPT, where also our Lord was crucified."
 
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sovereigngrace

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To use a cliche that is often repeated, "the Kingdom of God is both now and not yet." We experience it now in a small measure, and will experience it in the future in full-measure. It is not that some of the things in Zec 14 are for now and others are for the future. Everything is for now in a small measure and everything is for the future in full measure. Let me comment on your step-by-step thinking:


Remember that Jerusalem is the Church, the Apostle Paul explained this in Galatians. Contrary to Dispensationalist teaching, there has been one church since Adam and this has been subjected to violence, and still being subjected to violence and Jesus / the Lord came to earth to establish his Kingdom and now that the Church has spread all over the world and not only in Israel, Jesus still fights for the Church. Even Judah fights against Jerusalem. He already came to the Mount of Olives and issued running water from Jerusalem and will come again to the Mount of Olives with all the holy ones with him.


This describes the punishment of those who are fighting the Church as they suffer in Gehenna.


This describes the blessings of believers who have the opportunity to celebrate the feast of tabernacles with the Lord who tabernacled among us. We worship the King in Jerusalem, and bring him our best offerings.


There are 3 groups: those who fight against the Church / Jerusalem, and those who fight for the Church / Jerusalem, and unbelievers who do not fight against the Church.


You're right.


Both the Struggling Church and the Victorious Church need the rain of the Holy Spirit.

Good study!
 
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DavidPT

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Remember that Jerusalem is the Church, the Apostle Paul explained this in Galatians. Contrary to Dispensationalist teaching, there has been one church since Adam and this has been subjected to violence, and still being subjected to violence and Jesus / the Lord came to earth to establish his Kingdom and now that the Church has spread all over the world and not only in Israel, Jesus still fights for the Church. Even Judah fights against Jerusalem. He already came to the Mount of Olives and issued running water from Jerusalem and will come again to the Mount of Olives with all the holy ones with him.

With that in mind that Jerusalem is the church, explain what is meant by south of the church in verse 10, below, since that says Jerusalem, and that you propose that Jerusalem means the church. How can Jerusalem, a literal city in the middle east, not be meant in verse 10?

Zechariah 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.


This describes the punishment of those who are fighting the Church as they suffer in Gehenna.

I don't agree with this. This is meaning something that takes place during the 2nd coming. I tend to take it to mean Revelation 19:21 myself.


This describes the blessings of believers who have the opportunity to celebrate the feast of tabernacles with the Lord who tabernacled among us. We worship the King in Jerusalem, and bring him our best offerings.


Maybe verse 16 by itself gives that impression, but if we factor in verses 17-19 it doesn't appear to give that impression.

There are 3 groups: those who fight against the Church / Jerusalem, and those who fight for the Church / Jerusalem, and unbelievers who do not fight against the Church.

I agree that this involves 3 groups. I don't think you are going to find much agreement with that and some of the other Amils on this forum, though. They only see two groups not three. I don't know why and I don't know how they do since it is plainly obvious from the texts involved that some of the unbelievers from all nations attack Jerusalem while other unbelievers from these same nations don't. That's already two groups right there and we haven't even factored in the ones being attacked, thus adding up to 3 groups not 2 groups.

Both the Struggling Church and the Victorious Church need the rain of the Holy Spirit.


As to the rain I'm still not certain what sense to take that in. Is literal rain meant? Maybe. Yet, I don't know that for certain.
 
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As to the rain I'm still not certain what sense to take that in. Is literal rain meant? Maybe. Yet, I don't know that for certain.

If that was a threat of no literal rain droplets for a literal nation of Egypt, there is practically zero rainfall in the land of Egypt anyway, isn't there? What kind of threat would that have been, for a nation who used the Nile for its source of water, and not natural rainfall? This tells me that there is symbolism going on here, in regard to the blessing of "rain" or the withholding of it.
 
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DavidPT

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If that was a threat of no literal rain droplets for a literal nation of Egypt, there is practically zero rainfall in the land of Egypt anyway, isn't there? What kind of threat would that have been, for a nation who used the Nile for its source of water, and not natural rainfall? This tells me that there is symbolism going on here, in regard to the blessing of "rain" or the withholding of it.


I don't really keep up with weather related events involving Egypt, so, assuming you are correct, this then appears to be a good point you make here.
 
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Andrewn

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I don't really keep up with weather related events involving Egypt, so, assuming you are correct, this then appears to be a good point you make here.
she is most definitely correct, and was going to write the same thing.

With that in mind that Jerusalem is the church, explain what is meant by south of the church in verse 10, below, since that says Jerusalem, and that you propose that Jerusalem means the church. How can Jerusalem, a literal city in the middle east, not be meant in verse 10?
The whole earth gradually becoming filled with the knowledge of God and transformed into plain with fruitful vineyards (figuratively and spiritually).

I don't agree with this. This is meaning something that takes place during the 2nd coming. I tend to take it to mean Revelation 19:21 myself.
Both Zec 14:12 and Rev 19:21 likely have the same spiritual meaning. Is there such a thing as a sword that comes out of the mouth? No, this needs to be understood figuratively and spiritually.

Maybe verse 16 by itself gives that impression, but if we factor in verses 17-19 it doesn't appear to give that impression.
I'm not sure why you say this. We can analyze any parts that don't seem to fit.

As to the rain I'm still not certain what sense to take that in. Is literal rain meant? Maybe. Yet, I don't know that for certain.
Jesus talked a lot about the life-giving water that he gives. This is a central theme in the entire chapter of Zec 14.

James 5:7 says “Be patient, therefore, beloved until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious crop from the earth, being patient with it until it receives the early and the late rains.”
 
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Jesus talked a lot about the life-giving water that he gives. This is a central theme in the entire chapter of Zec 14.

Yes, he did, and it was indeed a frequently-visited theme. In fact, Zechariah was probably the very context Jesus had in mind when he said in John 7:38 "He that believeth on me, AS THE SCRIPTURE HATH SAID" (probably from Zechariah 14:8) "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
 
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Have you ever observed the feast of tabernacles as was required of Jews living near Jerusalem in the first century? According to the Talmud men were supposed to go to Jerusalem for three festivals: Tabernacles (Booths), Passover and Pentecost. Those who lived far from Jerusalem were given the option of not attending the festivals.

Since the temple was destroyed, modern Jews are not required to attend the festivals in Jerusalem.

Zechariah could not mean today as there are billions of people and not all could fit in Jerusalem, nor could everyone afford airfare to get to Ben Gurion airport (TLV).
I would say it was always a delegation or representative that went up for a country. Those who did not send a delegation or representative would be punished. Not that the whole Nation of people would go to Jerusalem.

The whole point is God currently asking other Nations to send representatives to Jerusalem, and punishing them if they decline?

No, because currently where two or more are gathered in the Name of Jesus Christ, God is there with them. A whole nation could gather in groups any where, and that would be the same as sending one or more people to Jerusalem. In fact right now God would be more pleased if the whole nation gathered in small groups, than just sending a single person interested in God to Jerusalem.
 
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Another pertinent question: Why is it only this particular, single Feast of Tabernacles celebration that is highlighted here in Zechariah 14? Why weren't the other two required harvest feasts, Passover and Pentecost, brought up in this context?

I maintain that the symbolism of those other two required harvest feasts would have been fulfilled types as of the time Jerusalem's siege and its destruction from Zechariah 12-14:15 was over, and would no longer need to be emphasized. Anyone else have ideas on the reason for this?
 
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Andrewn

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Another pertinent question: Why is it only this particular, single Feast of Tabernacles celebration that is highlighted here in Zechariah 14? Why weren't the other two required harvest feasts, Passover and Pentecost, brought up in this context?
We know that the Lord was crucified during the feast on Passover and that the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost. Thus both of these have been fulfilled.

According to Exo 34:22, the feast of Tabernacles is a "Festival of Ingathering at the year's end" and marks the end of the harvest time and thus of the agricultural year.

My guess is that Christians celebrate Tabernacles by bringing themselves and other believers as a harvest to the Lord. Each year, more harvest is brought to the Lord.

Tabernacles may also be the time when the Lord will come again and gather with his saints.
 
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DavidPT

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Yes, he did, and it was indeed a frequently-visited theme. In fact, Zechariah was probably the very context Jesus had in mind when he said in John 7:38 "He that believeth on me, AS THE SCRIPTURE HATH SAID" (probably from Zechariah 14:8) "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."


The context involving Zechariah 14:8 is the new Jerusalem that comes down from God out of heaven. Is that what you feel Jesus was referring to as well?
 
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Tabernacles may also be the time when the Lord will come again and gather with his saints.

YES to this, Amen.

Eschatology should have a simple enough premise that even a young child can grasp the basic concepts. That is why I believe that the symbolism of the three required Jewish harvest feast celebrations was intended to show no less than THREE bodily resurrections of the saints out of the dust of the ground, and at those very specific days of the year.

In that Israelite agricultural society, any young Jewish child could have caught the symbolism of lifeless-looking bare grain being planted in the ground, and then "resurrected" to life again in a harvest, similar to the dead bodies of God's children being planted in the ground, and then bodily raised in a changed state.

"A picture paints a thousand words", as they say. I believe God intended the three required harvest feast celebrations to repeatedly pantomime the three bodily resurrections which would take place at those very same times of the year - Passover, Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles.

We know that the Lord was crucified during the feast on Passover and that the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost. Thus both of these have been fulfilled.

It is no accident that Christ was called the "FIRST-fruits". Definitely a Passover week bodily resurrection, along with the small "remnant of the dead", the Matthew 27 saints, in that "First resurrection". But I believe the symbolism of the next Pentecost resurrection was predicted by Daniel's oddly precise 1,335th day, which aligns with that year's Pentecost day in AD 70. If one pieces together the historical accounts that match with Daniel's prediction of when this 1,335 days would begin, they line up with this AD 70 Pentecost day exactly.

If those two resurrections have already been fulfilled at those two very specific days of the calendar year, I see no reason why Zechariah 14:16-19 's thrice-repeated emphasis on the lone, remaining Feast of Tabernacles cannot symbolize the final bodily resurrection in the future for the rest of us believers. I guess one could call us the "LAST-fruits", in that case.
 
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There are 3 groups: those who fight against the Church / Jerusalem, and those who fight for the Church / Jerusalem, and unbelievers who do not fight against the Church.

The context involving Zechariah 14:8 is the new Jerusalem that comes down from God out of heaven. Is that what you feel Jesus was referring to as well?
It is commendable that you believe the passage describes the new Jerusalem rather than earthly Jerusalem as Dispensationalists believe. Still, how are evil mortal (including Jews as per Zec 14:14) going to fight against a spiritual kingdom coming down from heaven?
 
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Andrewn

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That is why I believe that the symbolism of the three required Jewish harvest feast celebrations was intended to show no less than THREE bodily resurrections of the saints out of the dust of the ground, and at those very specific days of the year.

It is no accident that Christ was called the "FIRST-fruits". Definitely a Passover week bodily resurrection, along with the small "remnant of the dead", the Matthew 27 saints, in that "First resurrection".
Christ was resurrected during Passover. But the obligation to bring First Fruits (Bikkurim) to the Temple began at the festival of Shavuot (Pentecost) and continued until the festival of Sukkot (Tabernacles).

The Holy Spirit started to bring First Fruits to the Kingdom of God on Pentecost 30 AD and will continue until a time that only God knows about (Mat 24:36).

If those two resurrections have already been fulfilled at those two very specific days of the calendar year, I see no reason why Zechariah 14:16-19 's thrice-repeated emphasis on the lone, remaining Feast of Tabernacles cannot symbolize the final bodily resurrection in the future for the rest of us believers.
It is certainly possible, and I already said as much in my previous message. But we are not supposed to be fortune tellers, trying to guess what only God knows.

But I believe the symbolism of the next Pentecost resurrection was predicted by Daniel's oddly precise 1,335th day, which aligns with that year's Pentecost day in AD 70. If one pieces together the historical accounts that match with Daniel's prediction of when this 1,335 days would begin, they line up with this AD 70 Pentecost day exactly.
I don't understand this. Would you explain?
 
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claninja

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Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Not only do we need to determine what this is meaning, we also need to determine when it is meaning. The latter being mainly the focus of the OP.

When it comes to prophetic events in general, how can one reasonably argue that chronology is irrelevant? For example, in Zechariah 14 would anyone suggest that verse 12 is fulfilled prior to verse 2? Probably not, right? And why is that? Is it not because chronology is obviously relevant after all, otherwise why would it matter when verse 12 is meaning in relation to when verse 2 is meaning?

Many insist that nothing in Zechariah 14 involves any events outside of this present age, and for certain, verses 16-19 don't. But is that what the chronology of events show to be the case?

IMO, some of Zechariah 14 pertains to this age and some of it pertains to an age post the 2nd coming. Therefore I place what is recorded in Zechariah 14 into 2 categories.

The first category, I will label it A), events pertaining to this age.

The second category, I will label it B), events pertaining to an age post the 2nd coming.

The verses I see pertaining to A) would be all of the following---1-5, 12-15.

The verses I see pertaining to B) would be all of the following---6-11, 16-21.


But let's assume that it is incorrect for me to assume that verses 16-19 fit category B), that they instead fit category A). In order to conclude they fit A) rather than B), a cpl of things have to be factored in first, though. For instance, verse 12. Is not verses 16-19 meaning after the fulfillment of verse 12, the fact these remaining obviously didn't encounter the same fate at the time, that those meant in verse 12 did? Because if they did, how does one explain that the text in verse 16 says this---that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King? Those that received the punishment described in verse 12, are or are not these of the ones of all the nations which came against Jerusalem? Doesn't this simply mean that not everyone living in the nations that attacked Jerusalem were even involved in the attack? They simply lived in the nations involved in the attack, and not that they were also participants of the attack, thus why some are spared and some are not.

The next thing to factor in, has verse 12 even been fulfilled yet? Can anyone convincingly argue that it has already been fulfilled? I don't see how.

Since the OP is getting rather lengthy already, I would like to focus on one more thing involving the verses in question, meaning this---that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. How does one apply something like that to this age, in any sense? When is the last time one has ever heard of any families residing on the earth the past 2000 years, that have been threatened with no rain for refusing to come up? Since no reasonable person should disagree that Zechariah 14 involves events pertaining to the last days if that same person agrees that the last days began 2000 years ago with the first coming and that we are still in the last days even today, how then can anyone reasonably apply what is recorded in verses 16-19 to that of the past 2000 years?

1.) ancient Hebrew oracles are not necessarily in chronological order because ancient Hebrews often used what we call today “block logic”.

2.) God spoke to the prophets of Israel in riddles, dreams, and vision (numbers 12:6-8). Therefore, we shouldn’t necessarily understand OT oracles as literal events unless given explanation by an interpreter (such as an angel) or NT clarification.

3.)we should look for anchor points in passages, where the NT describes fulfillment. For example Zechariah 14:8 mentions living waters flowing. John 7:37-39 states the living waters flowing is fulfilled with the coming of the Holy Spirit

4.) now, in regards to the OP, what does the NT state about coming to worship in Jerusalem?

I.) Jesus stated a time was coming when his people would no longer worship in Jerusalem but instead worship in spirit and truth (John 4:21-23).

II.) the author of Hebrews stated believers had already come to mount zion and the heavenly Jerusalem to worship (Hebrews 12:22-24).

Therefore, I would argue these spiritual NT applications of coming to Jerusalem to worship should be applied to Zechariah 14, when attempting to interpret its meaning
 
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Christ was resurrected during Passover. But the obligation to bring First Fruits (Bikkurim) to the Temple began at the festival of Shavuot (Pentecost) and continued until the festival of Sukkot (Tabernacles).

The Holy Spirit started to bring First Fruits to the Kingdom of God on Pentecost 30 AD and will continue until a time that only God knows about (Mat 24:36).


It is certainly possible, and I already said as much in my previous message. But we are not supposed to be fortune tellers, trying to guess what only God knows.


I don't understand this. Would you explain?

That Passover "First resurrection" event in AD 33 was symbolized by the early Barley harvest Firstfruits offered in Leviticus 23:10-11 - not the later wheat harvest coming in later at Pentecost (as in Leviticus 23:15). That small "First-fruits" sheaf handful of barley (like the "remnant of the dead" Matthew 27:52-53 saints) was to be offered along with a single He-lamb (which represented Christ).

As for the much larger, Pentecost AD 70 resurrection that came later, I don't have much time today to cover all the historical records for proving that date here, but I did do so on another website at the following link, starting at reply #19:

The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections

That post I started began with my Preterist testimony, so you may want to skip over that part and just read the #19 reply. But you might want to grab a cup of coffee, because that #19 reply is a couple pages long.
 
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What tends to muddy the waters when it comes time to interpret the entire, intact Zechariah 12-14 prophecy given to Israel about her "siege against Judah and Jerusalem" is Zechariah's presentation of the TWO Jerusalems, with God "casting out" the allegorical "bondwoman and her son" by eradicating the natural Jerusalem Temple and priesthood, and establishing the promised true, spiritual Jerusalem which was above, which is the mother of us all. God was "taking away the first, that He may establish the second". It was the Old Covenant Jerusalem being shaken to the foundations and passing way, so that the unshaken kingdom of the New Covenant Jerusalem would stand alone without a rival. The "harlot" being killed to make way for the faithful "bride".

Yes, the natural Jerusalem was physically torn down, and literally experienced those enumerated horrors of a siege and civil war within the city, but that passed away in favor of the spiritual Jerusalem with its "living water" flowing from out of the New Jerusalem believers, in a ceaseless stream that would go to both the Jewish lands (represented by the "former sea" or the Dead Sea) and also Gentile lands (represented by the "hinder sea" or the Mediterranean). This "living water" has continued ever since, augmented by the "rainfall" of God blessing all those in the various nations of the world that give homage to King Jesus, the Lord of hosts.
 
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