What would you mean by "testable evidence"? examples?

com7fy8 · Sep 20, 2021

Kylie said:
So you just feel it really strongly, and thus conclude that what you feel must be correct?

No . . . I trust it to God >

"casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you." (1 Peter 5:7)

I do not trust myself or what I feel. And Jesus does say we need to deny ourselves in order to follow Him >

"'If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.'" (in Luke 9:23)

I trust Him to decide and guide my feelings, so I am sharing with Him.

Kylie · Sep 21, 2021

com7fy8 said:
No . . . I trust it to God >

"casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you." (1 Peter 5:7)

I do not trust myself or what I feel. And Jesus does say we need to deny ourselves in order to follow Him >

"'If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.'" (in Luke 9:23)

I trust Him to decide and guide my feelings, so I am sharing with Him.

That still leaves the door open for something other than God to come and do it instead, and just leave you thinking it's God...

com7fy8 · Sep 22, 2021

Kylie said:
That still leaves the door open for something other than God to come and do it instead, and just leave you thinking it's God...

. . . Satan's stuff will not only "leave" me, but will try to deceive me into thinking it is God.

Yes, there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," we have in Ephesians 2:2. This evil spirit of selfishness "works" very hard, including by means of dominating and controlling drives for pleasure, and nasty and negative anger and anxiety and arguing, and unforgiveness and frustration. If it is really not God, then, this stuff will find a way to come out.

Things will happen; "God resists the proud" > in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5. And we now are reaping emotionally according to whatever we really have been sowing. We are getting into more and more . . . of something, or of Jesus.

So, in order to keep fooling myself with what is inferior to Jesus . . . this won't happen by accident.

It is my opinion that ones without Jesus can fool themselves into claiming they are fine. But in order to stay the way they want to be, they often isolate themselves with things and people who do not love them, but only help them to feel nice, at best. You can't learn how to love any and all people in sharing with God, by isolating yourself with a cute little doggie, for one example. And food won't do this. On we could go.

And there are ones who in-crowd with only ones they can use for things they want. But the pandemic has helped to bring out how fine people really are, deeply, while they have been more pushed to stay only with ones of their own feather. Things come to bring out how we really are.

But with Jesus we can have rest which is almighty in its safety and immunity to sin-sick stuff >

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

And there are wrong things which help keep people weak so they can suffer, because they do not make you strong in God's grace, simple as this. So, this is why certain ones will care about you enough to warn you against these things . . . right while ones say they "hate" you.

Kylie · Sep 22, 2021

com7fy8 said:
. . . Satan's stuff will not only "leave" me, but will try to deceive me into thinking it is God.

Yes, there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," we have in Ephesians 2:2. This evil spirit of selfishness "works" very hard, including by means of dominating and controlling drives for pleasure, and nasty and negative anger and anxiety and arguing, and unforgiveness and frustration. If it is really not God, then, this stuff will find a way to come out.

Things will happen; "God resists the proud" > in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5. And we now are reaping emotionally according to whatever we really have been sowing. We are getting into more and more . . . of something, or of Jesus.

So, in order to keep fooling myself with what is inferior to Jesus . . . this won't happen by accident.

It is my opinion that ones without Jesus can fool themselves into claiming they are fine. But in order to stay the way they want to be, they often isolate themselves with things and people who do not love them, but only help them to feel nice, at best. You can't learn how to love any and all people in sharing with God, by isolating yourself with a cute little doggie, for one example. And food won't do this. On we could go.

And there are ones who in-crowd with only ones they can use for things they want. But the pandemic has helped to bring out how fine people really are, deeply, while they have been more pushed to stay only with ones of their own feather. Things come to bring out how we really are.

But with Jesus we can have rest which is almighty in its safety and immunity to sin-sick stuff >

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

And there are wrong things which help keep people weak so they can suffer, because they do not make you strong in God's grace, simple as this. So, this is why certain ones will care about you enough to warn you against these things . . . right while ones say they "hate" you.

Yeah, this doesn't actually explain how you have verified that what you think is going is what is actually going on.

com7fy8 · Sep 23, 2021

Kylie said:
Yeah, this doesn't actually explain how you have verified that what you think is going is what is actually going on.

I don't know how to explain it. I just offer what I have read in the Bible and experienced and how it fits together, for me.

How do you explain that you have experienced the sun? How do you know there is sun shining and this is going on?

For one thing, because we have common experience, for this, I suppose, you don't have to try to convince me. You don't need to give me an explanation.

I understand if I have perceived there is God, this is because He has had me doing so. In Hebrews 5:14 we have something about "senses" so we can perceive the difference between good and evil. I would say God can give a person senses for experiencing Him.

But my words to you might not mean what I mean. Maybe it is like if you were an Eskimo who has never been told anything about an elephant. My words of description about an elephant could sound to you like I am talking about a walrus. Because I say things like tusk and fat and not much hair. And you have only experience of a walrus.

So, if I offer words about God, you possibly only can liken what I say to whom and what you have experienced or understand. So, without my actual experience, possibly there is no explaining.

You can't even play a decent game of word chess with me, if each of us has totally different meanings and rules for each of the pieces!!

But, no matter what you or I do, God knows what He means by His words to us humans. So, we trust Him to do with us what He knows He means and desires. And I would say He has given me explanations, but I know I do not have the experience and knowledge He has, to go with anything He shares with us.

It is like if you answer a child's question. You have much more perspective and experience than the child is capable of having, to know what you are talking about.

Kylie · Sep 23, 2021

com7fy8 said:
I don't know how to explain it. I just offer what I have read in the Bible and experienced and how it fits together, for me.

How do you explain that you have experienced the sun? How do you know there is sun shining and this is going on?

For one thing, because we have common experience, for this, I suppose, you don't have to try to convince me. You don't need to give me an explanation.

I understand if I have perceived there is God, this is because He has had me doing so. In Hebrews 5:14 we have something about "senses" so we can perceive the difference between good and evil. I would say God can give a person senses for experiencing Him.

But my words to you might not mean what I mean. Maybe it is like if you were an Eskimo who has never been told anything about an elephant. My words of description about an elephant could sound to you like I am talking about a walrus. Because I say things like tusk and fat and not much hair. And you have only experience of a walrus.

So, if I offer words about God, you possibly only can liken what I say to whom and what you have experienced or understand. So, without my actual experience, possibly there is no explaining.

You can't even play a decent game of word chess with me, if each of us has totally different meanings and rules for each of the pieces!!

But, no matter what you or I do, God knows what He means by His words to us humans. So, we trust Him to do with us what He knows He means and desires. And I would say He has given me explanations, but I know I do not have the experience and knowledge He has, to go with anything He shares with us.

It is like if you answer a child's question. You have much more perspective and experience than the child is capable of having, to know what you are talking about.

If I wanted to convince you that I had experienced the sun, I could make a record. I could record myself on video outside on a sunny day, showing both myself and the sun. I can make measurements of the sun's warmth and light, the position in the sky. I could provide a lot of information about my experience with the sun.

I doubt you could do the same with your experience with God.

com7fy8 · Sep 23, 2021

Kylie said:
I doubt you could do the same with your experience with God.

Exactly . . . because we both have senses making us able to experience the sun.

So, if I can experience God, but you do not have senses for doing this, of course there might be a very big nothing I could do to show God to you. Plus, it is not I who prove God to someone, but God Himself proves Himself to us.

It is like how that platypus itself proved to be the convincing evidence. Well-known scientists told scientists at home about the platypus; but the ones at home refused to believe them. Even when they looked at an actual specimen, they claimed it was several creatures sewn together, until they got into it. But they had senses in common, so they could benefit from the proof.

But I am talking about non-physical senses. And if you do not trust that there is spiritual being in existence, then you are going to not trust what I am offering . . . possibly no matter what I say or do.

But my opinion is that God Himself is our only real proof.

But feelings, by the way, in my opinion, are not the same as senses for actually experiencing a reality. But sensing does include feeling, right?

Kylie · Sep 23, 2021

com7fy8 said:
Exactly . . . because we both have senses making us able to experience the sun.

So, if I can experience God, but you do not have senses for doing this, of course there might be a very big nothing I could do to show God to you. Plus, it is not I who prove God to someone, but God Himself proves Himself to us.

It is like how that platypus itself proved to be the convincing evidence. Well-known scientists told scientists at home about the platypus; but the ones at home refused to believe them. Even when they looked at an actual specimen, they claimed it was several creatures sewn together, until they got into it. But they had senses in common, so they could benefit from the proof.

But I am talking about non-physical senses. And if you do not trust that there is spiritual being in existence, then you are going to not trust what I am offering . . . possibly no matter what I say or do.

But my opinion is that God Himself is our only real proof.

But feelings, by the way, in my opinion, are not the same as senses for actually experiencing a reality. But sensing does include feeling, right?

Of course, all of this is still perfectly explainable by saying that there is no God and what you feel when you experience God is something else that you attribute to God.

So, how do you verify what you experience of God? I can verify what I experience with the sun, but can you do the same with God?

com7fy8 · Sep 25, 2021

Kylie said:
So, how do you verify what you experience of God? I can verify what I experience with the sun, but can you do the same with God?

I trust God to verify with me. And the process of this includes prayer and things in God's word.

One thing I find is the Bible says things that are a match with my experience of Jesus and how He changes me.

And I have talked with Jesus people who have told me that they have experienced things of God, but did not have words for their experience, but I came along and gave them words for how they already were experiencing God.

So, no it is not like how I can verify experience with the sun. God is not physical or human. So, relating with Him is different than with physical things and humans. But I am finding each human is not to be figured out; so verifying him or her can be a silly exercise, since my perception of the person can be different than the real person! So, trying to verify someone as I perceive the person versus how the person really is could be silly.

And God is so more complex than humans whom He has created. Maybe it is kind of like how your computer is very complicated, but your computer is only a creation of humans so much more complex than I would say we can realize.

So . . . may be we could say, trying to verify God, when we don't even realize all there is to Him . . . could be not likely to work. But we can enjoy Him, love Him, and benefit from Him how He pleases, and trust Him to bless others, also.

What was that that happened today? Here is something that has happened to me . . . a number of times >

I am working on restoring a wooden rocking chair, by gluing it back together and screwing metal braces to the underside, to maybe help keep it together . . . for my sweetie

And I have a rubber screwdriver tool which is the shape of a hand grenade. And I am using this for loving personally, by doing the chair for her.

Well . . . years ago I was not sharing so personally with anyone; but as I have developed as a Christian I have gotten to be more into family caring and sharing with people . . . so, among other things, I am also involved with her family and ones she helps in her kind and tender and caring way. And by helping her neighbor I got involved with him so he gave me this rubber grenade shaped tool with multiple heads for working with screws.

But years ago I did help with a visiting nurse's flea market fundraiser and a women brought me a carton with donations with a small grenade-shaped item that was metal and heavy for such a small thing. Right away, I took it away from everyone and phoned the police and set it behind a tree behind the multi-service emergency station. But it was a cigarette lighter!

So, I see God's poetry and verification in this. While I was not so personally relating but only donating time and service, I had a hard metal grenade which got me into problems because I carried it somewhere, instead of leaving it in place and abandoning it for the emergency people to handle. Yet, I did value their safety enough to handle it myself, in case that matters. They did not agree, but I have no family . . . .

But now, poetically and with a variation on things . . . I have a soft grenade shaped thing which I can use as a tool for loving my sweetie, in soft and tender more personal relating . . . not merely for making a questionable gesture of caring for others. And this grenade arrived and I can keep it, and use it for loving more personally and maybe more wisely.

So, I see how God can work things with poetry not only of words, but of things and events and people . . . and fit it with how I am developing as a person.

So, what are the statistical chances of this happening . . . including how symbolically I have a small hard grenade while I am still kind of cold and hard in how I relate, and then a soft and useful grenade shows up when I am more personally kind and helpful? And God in His all-control of people and things can have this poetry happen. I have regular poetic things work out like this . . . not only once in my life, or a few times. And I don't notice them, maybe, until some time after they have happened; I need to be in prayer so I can see certain things that have been there.

Kylie · Sep 25, 2021

com7fy8 said:
I trust God to verify with me.

Of course, the trouble is that it could be something pretending to be God and giving you the verification you expect God to give you. You'll get everything you need to convince you that it's God, but it still won't be God, will it?

com7fy8 · Sep 25, 2021

Kylie said:
Of course, the trouble is that it could be something pretending to be God and giving you the verification you expect God to give you. You'll get everything you need to convince you that it's God, but it still won't be God, will it?

We are warned that Satan can do "miracles". And yes we can be wishful in our interpretation of God's word and of things and what we decide God must want.

And yes I have fooled my own self and did not know this.

So . . . yes evil is possible and sin is possible and deceit . . . self-deceit . . . is possible.

So, how do we know?

God's word > God's word ministers His grace which changes us to be more like Jesus and to personally share with Him and benefit from how He proves Himself in us and in our lives. So, this is not only a theoretical thing, or about our own ability. Yes, there is so much anti-love, anti-God evil; without Jesus we can not hold up and keep from fooling our own selves.

God gives us light > light shows so much more than any number of words could explain. Even physical sunlight can show you what no amount of words could tell you in detail, about a harbor scene or exactly what someone looks like. And God is more than humans can see and imagine.

prayer

"The things which are impossible with men are possible with God." (in Luke 18:27)

"casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you." (1 Peter 5:7)

And there is faith which is "the evidence of things not seen," we have in Hebrews 11:1. Faith is God's gift.

So . . . it doesn't depend on me and my ability.

Kylie · Sep 25, 2021

com7fy8 said:
We are warned that Satan can do "miracles". And yes we can be wishful in our interpretation of God's word and of things and what we decide God must want.

And yes I have fooled my own self and did not know this.

So . . . yes evil is possible and sin is possible and deceit . . . self-deceit . . . is possible.

So, how do we know?

God's word > God's word ministers His grace which changes us to be more like Jesus and to personally share with Him and benefit from how He proves Himself in us and in our lives. So, this is not only a theoretical thing, or about our own ability. Yes, there is so much anti-love, anti-God evil; without Jesus we can not hold up and keep from fooling our own selves.

God gives us light > light shows so much more than any number of words could explain. Even physical sunlight can show you what no amount of words could tell you in detail, about a harbor scene or exactly what someone looks like. And God is more than humans can see and imagine.

prayer

"The things which are impossible with men are possible with God." (in Luke 18:27)

"casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you." (1 Peter 5:7)

And there is faith which is "the evidence of things not seen," we have in Hebrews 11:1. Faith is God's gift.

So . . . it doesn't depend on me and my ability.

I still don't see how you could possibly have confirmed that what you experience is from God and is not from something else that you are just attributing to God.

com7fy8 · Sep 26, 2021

Kylie said:
I still don't see how you could possibly have confirmed that what you experience is from God and is not from something else that you are just attributing to God.

On my own, I offer, there is no way I can be sure. In case I am right, it is because of God and the people who help me to make sure, and His word, all with trusting God to make sure. He is the One who knows and has things go right, if and when He does. However He knows I am wrong, Hebrews 12:4-14 guarantees how our Father corrects His children.

And at any moment, only God can know what He really desires with me or anyone else, and only He can have us going the right way. So, I commit all to Him. I'm not fast enough or smart enough to know at each moment what God wants with me; so I need to constantly stay available and submissive so I do what He really desires, at each moment of sharing with Him. I do not have time to do my own sorts of doubting and questioning, which will keep me away from doing what He pleases, at each moment.

So, yes I would say it is beyond human comprehension and capability. I can't explain it, but I appreciate however He has had mercy on me and has corrected me so I can discover how to love any and all people, not loving only ones I hope to use somehow.

Other things have a way of not lasting. God has lasted and how He has kept doing me and others good has lasted. So, I offer this for consideration.

And I do understand I don't have time to sit around wondering if He is God. He has things to do with us, all the time . . . better than what I have been doing as a human self-producer and trying to figure things out. He is better than all I have tried to do and how I have tried to understand and hoped to do.

How can you confirm your mother is your mother? How much time do you need to spend wondering if she is, and looking for possible reasons to doubt she is your mother?? I suppose you could confirm to someone that your mother has or has not been good for you. But in order to prove this . . . you and the one you are proving to might need to have common experience, so he or she could know what you are talking about. But, even then, how really can you know what really has been good and what has been bad? May be you made this up. I think there are things a person can know, whether anyone else has common experience with him or her, or not. But proving it to someone else . . . might require some anecdotes.

How am I to confirm that God is God? Trying to do that could be more dumb, that an ant trying to confirm that I exist. But I could prove myself to the ant; but how much would the ant be able to comprehend the proof and benefit from it?? God is able to prove Himself; but, like I offer, we need to be honest and have perception so we can benefit from how He proves Himself. He can confirm and people can spurn.

Kylie · Sep 26, 2021

com7fy8 said:
On my own, I offer, there is no way I can be sure.

I'm glad you can say this. I know a lot of people would take the intellectually dishonest position and claim that their subjective experience proves their beliefs objectively.

com7fy8 · Sep 26, 2021

Kylie said:
I'm glad you can say this. I know a lot of people would take the intellectually dishonest position and claim that their subjective experience proves their beliefs objectively.

I have proof that I am capable of not being honest!

This could bring us to perhaps a sort of evidence. It seems humans often are in denial about how they are wrong.

Or, they may say, oh it's all my fault, but then do what does nothing or makes things worse, and/or get down on themselves.

I used to be petrified to ice about anything possibly being wrong with me, because I somehow dreaded that anything wrong in me could keep me from passing the Day of Judgment.

But with my Bible learning and my claim of experience with God, I have found encouragement to seek God's real correction about whatever is really wrong with me. I am not only trying to avoid hell, but Biblical correction changes us so we are like Jesus and love like Jesus and share as family with others who are discovering how to love any and all people. So, such correction is not only for my own self.

And I have been a conceited hyper-critical person who could welcome any excuses to look down on others. And it seems generally known how a person like that tends to be in denial about it, no matter what evidence comes to prove the person is a misfit and clueless about how to love.

But, I offer, God got through to me, by means of people's examples and things Jesus has said about loving and how to be.

But a thing is God is gentle and humble and quiet; so He might not make much noise while He includes humans and His book which can be quiet. And I had a major amount of noise going on in me, which had a way of keeping me in my mess. And I can still mess myself and need to be changed.

But when I become sweet and pleasant and caring about people, instead, this is pretty convincing . . . how God so quiet and kind is powerful enough to get rid of any sort of cruel and perverted and immoral and self-righteous and raging and ragging stuff, and keep me cheerful and kind with various people, not only with my sweetie and her doggie.

Estrid · Sep 29, 2021

Hazelelponi said:
For something to be tested as scientifically true, it must also be able to be falsified.

For instance, Newtons theory of the law of gravity is falsified when, in the absence of gravity, a brick can fly upward, therefore, Newtons theory would be true.

Of course, due to the study of black holes Newtons law has been proven wrong... but it took more than 200 years and huge technological advancements to do so.

However, If you take falsifiablity away from science, it ceases to be science altogether and enters into the realm of religion, which is basically where science is today, as they have reached their limit, for now, of what they can actually prove.

Does Science Need Falsifiability?

The issue with God, as a whole, is that He cannot be proven through falsification, which has always been, up until now, a defining factor in science.

But even as science moves from the realm of science into the realm of religion, they're "faith" as it were, exists in saying God cannot be proven (ever), but through knowledge will some day be able to be disproven, instead of leaving that door to possibility open, they have already shut it firmly.

So we can look around and see God in the flowers of the field, in the universe and laws upon which it exists, but I find it doubtful a "true believer" will ever be Christian, unless God places His Hand upon them directly.

I was once a "true believer" in Islam, and ultimately it was God's work that took me out of that belief, whether through others or through His power working on me... I think the "true believer" in the absence of a God, would need the same...

That's just my thinking on the matter though.

Science in anything like it's modern form has existed FOR
maybe .0005% of human existence. Or far less.
A bit early to say what can eventually be done.

Science does not prove things, btw.

It does have to work with evidence, though.

A big problem for demonstrating the existence of God
besides lack of evidence is of course that with "proof"
there's no meaning to faith.

Estrid · Sep 29, 2021

Kylie said:
And how did you verify that what you got was actually from God?

If a person prays for a yes / no answer long enough the
Answer will come, plainly enough.
If they doubt it was God and keep praying, it will come
back, "No" if the previous had been yes, and of course,
vice versa.

com7fy8 · Sep 30, 2021

Estrid said:
A big problem for demonstrating the existence of God
besides lack of evidence is of course that with "proof"
there's no meaning to faith.

Well, God is so more and different than we are . . . kind of like how a computer is quite different than the ones who created the computer. The computer can be proof of the existence of the ones who created it. However . . . though I have the computer as proof, I might know nothing at all about the humans who made it.

And on top of this, ones are demanding what they dictate to be proof that God exists; yet, if they got their proof, they still would not necessarily be actually experiencing Him and how He is.

Experiencing how His love effects us and has us loving would I suppose be better evidence than only having a word-chess argument that brings people to believe in Him. I'm not sure that what is intellectual is enough, then.

I mean how God in His love can effect our character so we become like Jesus says in the very beginning of His Sermon on the Mount >

poor in spirit

meek

merciful

pure in heart

He says the pure in heart will see God. If I am pure in His love . . . now I can experience Him. Anything else could be only intellectual, theoretical; so is there really believing, without sharing with God in His love?

There is "faith working through love," after all > Galatians 5:6. And this scripture says if a person is circumcised or not makes no difference. There are things, even religious which can be design plays to keep our attention away.

ruthiesea · Oct 2, 2021

essentialsaltes said:
Exsqueeze me? There are plenty of measurements that show the null hypothesis (that light doesn't bend) is not correct.

That light bends is the null hypothesis. When testing a theory the aim is to disprove or invalidate it. That would be the hypothesis. If the result is the null hypothesis then the theory is supported.

Estrid · Oct 2, 2021

com7fy8 said:
Well, God is so more and different than we are . . . kind of like how a computer is quite different than the ones who created the computer. The computer can be proof of the existence of the ones who created it. However . . . though I have the computer as proof, I might know nothing at all about the humans who made it.

And on top of this, ones are demanding what they dictate to be proof that God exists; yet, if they got their proof, they still would not necessarily be actually experiencing Him and how He is.

Experiencing how His love effects us and has us loving would I suppose be better evidence than only having a word-chess argument that brings people to believe in Him. I'm not sure that what is intellectual is enough, then.

I mean how God in His love can effect our character so we become like Jesus says in the very beginning of His Sermon on the Mount >

poor in spirit

meek

merciful

pure in heart

He says the pure in heart will see God. If I am pure in His love . . . now I can experience Him. Anything else could be only intellectual, theoretical; so is there really be believing, without sharing with God in His love?

There is "faith working through love," after all > Galatians 5:6. And this scripture says if a person is circumcised or not makes no difference. There are things, even religious which can be design plays to keep our attention away.

None of that addresses what I said

What would you mean by "testable evidence"? examples?

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