Once again, what are we to make of Zechariah 14:16-19?

DavidPT

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Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Not only do we need to determine what this is meaning, we also need to determine when it is meaning. The latter being mainly the focus of the OP.

When it comes to prophetic events in general, how can one reasonably argue that chronology is irrelevant? For example, in Zechariah 14 would anyone suggest that verse 12 is fulfilled prior to verse 2? Probably not, right? And why is that? Is it not because chronology is obviously relevant after all, otherwise why would it matter when verse 12 is meaning in relation to when verse 2 is meaning?

Many insist that nothing in Zechariah 14 involves any events outside of this present age, and for certain, verses 16-19 don't. But is that what the chronology of events show to be the case?

IMO, some of Zechariah 14 pertains to this age and some of it pertains to an age post the 2nd coming. Therefore I place what is recorded in Zechariah 14 into 2 categories.

The first category, I will label it A), events pertaining to this age.

The second category, I will label it B), events pertaining to an age post the 2nd coming.

The verses I see pertaining to A) would be all of the following---1-5, 12-15.

The verses I see pertaining to B) would be all of the following---6-11, 16-21.


But let's assume that it is incorrect for me to assume that verses 16-19 fit category B), that they instead fit category A). In order to conclude they fit A) rather than B), a cpl of things have to be factored in first, though. For instance, verse 12. Is not verses 16-19 meaning after the fulfillment of verse 12, the fact these remaining obviously didn't encounter the same fate at the time, that those meant in verse 12 did? Because if they did, how does one explain that the text in verse 16 says this---that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King? Those that received the punishment described in verse 12, are or are not these of the ones of all the nations which came against Jerusalem? Doesn't this simply mean that not everyone living in the nations that attacked Jerusalem were even involved in the attack? They simply lived in the nations involved in the attack, and not that they were also participants of the attack, thus why some are spared and some are not.

The next thing to factor in, has verse 12 even been fulfilled yet? Can anyone convincingly argue that it has already been fulfilled? I don't see how.

Since the OP is getting rather lengthy already, I would like to focus on one more thing involving the verses in question, meaning this---that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. How does one apply something like that to this age, in any sense? When is the last time one has ever heard of any families residing on the earth the past 2000 years, that have been threatened with no rain for refusing to come up? Since no reasonable person should disagree that Zechariah 14 involves events pertaining to the last days if that same person agrees that the last days began 2000 years ago with the first coming and that we are still in the last days even today, how then can anyone reasonably apply what is recorded in verses 16-19 to that of the past 2000 years?
 
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dqhall

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Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Not only do we need to determine what this is meaning, we also need to determine when it is meaning. The latter being mainly the focus of the OP.

When it comes to prophetic events in general, how can one reasonably argue that chronology is irrelevant? For example, in Zechariah 14 would anyone suggest that verse 12 is fulfilled prior to verse 2? Probably not, right? And why is that? Is it not because chronology is obviously relevant after all, otherwise why would it matter when verse 12 is meaning in relation to when verse 2 is meaning?

Many insist that nothing in Zechariah 14 involves any events outside of this present age, and for certain, verses 16-19 don't. But is that what the chronology of events show to be the case?

IMO, some of Zechariah 14 pertains to this age and some of it pertains to an age post the 2nd coming. Therefore I place what is recorded in Zechariah 14 into 2 categories.

The first category, I will label it A), events pertaining to this age.

The second category, I will label it B), events pertaining to an age post the 2nd coming.

The verses I see pertaining to A) would be all of the following---1-5, 12-15.

The verses I see pertaining to B) would be all of the following---6-11, 16-21.


But let's assume that it is incorrect for me to assume that verses 16-19 fit category B), that they instead fit category A). In order to conclude they fit A) rather than B), a cpl of things have to be factored in first, though. For instance, verse 12. Is not verses 16-19 meaning after the fulfillment of verse 12, the fact these remaining obviously didn't encounter the same fate at the time, that those meant in verse 12 did? Because if they did, how does one explain that the text in verse 16 says this---that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King? Those that received the punishment described in verse 12, are or are not these of the ones of all the nations which came against Jerusalem? Doesn't this simply mean that not everyone living in the nations that attacked Jerusalem were even involved in the attack? They simply lived in the nations involved in the attack, and not that they were also participants of the attack, thus why some are spared and some are not.

The next thing to factor in, has verse 12 even been fulfilled yet? Can anyone convincingly argue that it has already been fulfilled? I don't see how.

Since the OP is getting rather lengthy already, I would like to focus on one more thing involving the verses in question, meaning this---that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. How does one apply something like that to this age, in any sense? When is the last time one has ever heard of any families residing on the earth the past 2000 years, that have been threatened with no rain for refusing to come up? No reasonable person should disagree that Zechariah involves events pertaining to the last days if that same person agrees that the last days began 2000 years ago with the first coming and that we are still in the last days even today. How then can anyone reasonably apply what is recorded in verses 16-19 to that of the past 2000 years?
Have you ever observed the feast of tabernacles as was required of Jews living near Jerusalem in the first century? According to the Talmud men were supposed to go to Jerusalem for three festivals: Tabernacles (Booths), Passover and Pentecost. Those who lived far from Jerusalem were given the option of not attending the festivals.

Since the temple was destroyed, modern Jews are not required to attend the festivals in Jerusalem.

Zechariah could not mean today as there are billions of people and not all could fit in Jerusalem, nor could everyone afford airfare to get to Ben Gurion airport (TLV).
 
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DavidPT

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Zechariah could not mean today as there are billions of people and not all could fit in Jerusalem, nor could everyone afford airfare to get to Ben Gurion airport (TLV).


It for sure can't be meaning today if meaning in a literal sense, and especially because nothing even matches it to begin with, if meaning in a literal sense, since no one today is being refused rain for not complying. But let's assume it is still meaning in the literal sense, but that it is instead meaning a time post the 2nd coming. There is such a thing as sending delegates rather than it literally involving every single person living in the nations that are required to do this.
 
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lismore

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Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Millennium. :)
 
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Andrewn

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IMO, some of Zechariah 14 pertains to this age and some of it pertains to an age post the 2nd coming. Therefore I place what is recorded in Zechariah 14 into 2 categories.

The first category, I will label it A), events pertaining to this age.

The second category, I will label it B), events pertaining to an age post the 2nd coming.

The verses I see pertaining to A) would be all of the following---1-5, 12-15.

The verses I see pertaining to B) would be all of the following---6-11, 16-21.
The entire chapter is a description of Christ's Spiritual Kingdom, both present and future.
 
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DavidPT

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The entire chapter is a description of Christ's Spiritual Kingdom, both present and future.


Can you point out what portions of Zechariah 14 pertain to the future aspect of Christ's Spiritual Kingdom? And what are you meaning when you say Spiritual Kingdom, when you are applying the future to it? IOW, what does this Spiritual Kingdom look like to you when it is involving the future rather than the present? The same as it does in the present, where one is living by faith rather than by sight, where the spirit realm is not visible to the naked eye, etc?
 
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dqhall

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It for sure can't be meaning today if meaning in a literal sense, and especially because nothing even matches it to begin with, if meaning in a literal sense, since no one today is being refused rain for not complying. But let's assume it is still meaning in the literal sense, but that it is instead meaning a time post the 2nd coming. There is such a thing as sending delegates rather than it literally involving every single person living in the nations that are required to do this.
Jesus came, taught, fed and healed people. He said, “I am the way, the truth and the life.” A few million Jews seek God by studying the Old Testament. Christians may search the New Testament and the Old Testament. I would set this passage in Zechariah aside as it can not be taken literally.

Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.” (NIV)
 
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DavidPT

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Millennium. :)


Which millennium, though? Premil's version of the millennium, or Amil's version? No matter how one looks at it, unless those verses are pertaining to all of eternity, they apply to the millennium, even to Amil's version of the millennium since their millennium involves the past 2000 years, and that if they insist verses 16-19 involve the past 2000 years, that places these verses during the millennium per their view.
 
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DavidPT

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Jesus came, taught, fed and healed people. He said, “I am the way, the truth and the life.” A few million Jews seek God by studying the Old Testament. Christians may search the New Testament and the Old Testament. I would set this passage in Zechariah aside as it can not be taken literally.

Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.” (NIV)


Maybe it can't be taken literally, and let's say we all agree that it can't. Is that reason enough by itself to not apply it to a time post the 2nd coming, then?
 
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Jeshu

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The entire chapter is a description of Christ's Spiritual Kingdom, both present and future.

i agree that Zechariah 14 describes a spiritual kingdom but you forgot to add the past kingdom. Eternity, which contains Christ's kingdom, is past, present and future.

Peace.
 
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dqhall

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Maybe it can't be taken literally, and let's say we all agree that it can't. Is that reason enough by itself to not apply it to a time post the 2nd coming, then?
I wait for the second coming without regard to predictions in Revelation.

Live in the present day, tomorrow will take care of itself.

Matthew 6:31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
 
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spiritfilledjm

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Which millennium, though? Premil's version of the millennium, or Amil's version? No matter how one looks at it, unless those verses are pertaining to all of eternity, they apply to the millennium, even to Amil's version of the millennium since their millennium involves the past 2000 years, and that if they insist verses 16-19 involve the past 2000 years, that places these verses during the millennium per their view.

So then that would have to mean that the amil theory is incorrect.
 
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Douggg

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Zechariah could not mean today as there are billions of people and not all could fit in Jerusalem, nor could everyone afford airfare to get to Ben Gurion airport (TLV).
I think the intent is that the nations send representatives to Jerusalem to observe the feast of tabernacles.
 
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DavidPT

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So then that would have to mean that the amil theory is incorrect.

Maybe not if they can convincingly show how Zechariah 14:16-19 fits the past 2000 years better than a future 1000 year period instead. Arguing that if meaning after the 2nd coming, this means one has to conclude animal sacrificing resumes, is not a valid argument IMO.
 
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spiritfilledjm

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Maybe not if they can convincingly show how Zechariah 14:16-19 fits the past 2000 years better than a future 1000 year period instead. Arguing that if meaning after the 2nd coming, this means one has to conclude animal sacrificing resumes, is not a valid argument IMO.

Agreed. there are tons of different ways to interpret prophetical scripture and all the debating in the world won't matter in the end (pun always intended). It's going to happen how it's going to happen and nothing that anyone thinks is going to change what God has planned. I'd love to see how an a-mil or post-mil can make those views fit with Revelation 20:1-6 much less Zechariah 14:16-29...but even though this is the eschatology forum, that'd be off-topic for this specific question.
 
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DavidPT

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Agreed. there are tons of different ways to interpret prophetical scripture and all the debating in the world won't matter in the end (pun always intended). It's going to happen how it's going to happen and nothing that anyone thinks is going to change what God has planned. I'd love to see how an a-mil or post-mil can make those views fit with Revelation 20:1-6 much less Zechariah 14:16-29...but even though this is the eschatology forum, that'd be off-topic for this specific question.


The way I tend to reason in general, prophecies recorded in the Bible, they typically involve chronology in order to be fulfilled, regardless what sense they might get fulfilled in. For example, the following prophecy.

Psalms 110:1 <<A Psalm of David.>> The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.


Did this involve chronology in order to fulfill this? Yes. First Christ has to initially be in heaven, then He has to come down from heaven, meaning when He is born. Then He has to live for awhile, then die, then bodily resurrect, then hang around on the earth a few more days, then finally ascend back to heaven in order to sit on the Father's right hand. Yet, this verse is not entirely fulfilled, though---there is still this part---until I make thine enemies thy footstool. This last part obviously involves Him returning to the same earth He exited from 2000 years ago.


Since Zechariah 14 also involves prophetic events, shouldn't that mean chronology is relevant here as well, and that from the chronology alone one should be able to correctly identify what time periods are meant? If there is a verse, such as verse 12 in Zechariah 14, where it is undeniably obvious to some of us that that hasn't been fulfilled yet, shouldn't that mean that the time period involving verses 16-19 haven't even arrived yet, and can't arrive until verse 12 has been fulfilled first?
 
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DavidPT

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The following is me thinking out loud again, thus not addressed to anyone in particular.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.


Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.


First we see that the Lord gathers all nations against Jerusalem to battle. Obviously, Zechariah 14:16 can't be meaning before the Lord gathers all nations against Jerusalem to battle. I would think we should all be in agreement about that at least. Already this is proving chronology is relevant in Zechariah 14.


In verse 12 we see this----And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem. Take note what the text actually says and what it doesn't say. What it actually says is, this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem. What it doesn't say is, this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have not fought against Jerusalem. Which then brings us to verse 16.

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King.

What we need to ask ourselves at this point, are these meaning any of the ones which actually fought against Jerusalem, or are these meaning the ones that didn't? The answer to that can be found in verse 12, don't you think? If these remaining, in verse 16, are meaning any of the ones that fought against Jerusalem, how does one explain how they avoided the plague recorded in verse 12 when that verse is making it crystal clear that all ppl, not just some ppl, but all ppl that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth?


Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Regardless where one might place these events in time, it would be ludicrous for anyone to suggest that this doesn't at least involve an era of time to fulfill. This alone---shall even go up from year to year--regardless what sense that might be meaning in, proves that what is recorded in these verses involve an era of time at least. If verse 16 isn't even fulfilled until the 2nd coming happens first, what do we do with these verses then? Assume they are involving eternity, that mortals can somehow live forever? Because no matter how you look at it, none of these fit anyone that has been saved and have put on bodily immortality. You don't threaten the saved that has put on bodily immortality, with that of no rain if they fail to comply with what is commanded. That only applies to someone who is still mortal and still in possession of free will.

Even if verses 16-19 can somehow be applied to the past 2000 years instead, it still makes them mortal, it still makes them of not the saved since God wouldn't be doing to the saved what He is doing to the ones that might refuse to comply with what is demanded of them.
 
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dqhall

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I think the intent is that the nations send representatives to Jerusalem to observe the feast of tabernacles.
The Gentiles are not Jewish, they do not know when the feast of tabernacles is. They have not read the Jewish manual “ Sukkot” about the seven day harvest festival’s rules and regulations. No one is sending representatives to observe Passover in Jerusalem either, not even the Samaritans on the side of Mt. Gerazim.
 
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Douggg

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The Gentiles are not Jewish, they do not know when the feast of tabernacles is. They have not read the Jewish manual “ Sukkot” about the seven day harvest festival’s rules and regulations. No one is sending representatives to observe Passover in Jerusalem either, not even the Samaritans on the side of Mt. Gerazim.
Jesus will be here on earth at that time. As well as the saints who return with Him.

Knowing when the feast of tabernacles is - everyone will know.
 
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