Inerrant

Halbhh

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Matthew has wise men visiting baby Jesus, Luke has shedherds.
Those can fit together easily. E.g-- They came at different times.

Matthew states he hanged himself. Acts talks about going headfirst and his guts spilling out. The idea that his body fell headfirst after hanging is laughable

Think on context: He would not have a modern thick rope!

It was an act of the moment, and maybe he used anything he had in his possession, like an old sash, worn and weak.

The material could break.

To gain wonderful things, don't approach with this kind of focus in thinking to find something wrong.

Just read with listening to what Jesus taught, to hear the messages.
 
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St_Worm2

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Your faith should be strong enough to not have to rely on an inerrant book.
Hello again Ponder7, since the Christian faith is typically based upon the things that we've come to know and understand about the Lord Jesus Christ and salvation from the Bible, what is the basis for your faith apart from the Bible?

Thanks!

--David
 
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Gregorikos

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Just registered today. I’m glad this forum exists. I’m a Christian and have read the Bible with emphasis on the New Testament. I believe the Bible is wonderful, inspirational, devotional, but the one thing it cannot be is historically accurate.

The gospels differ, which isn’t the issue. In many instances they have conflicting detail which cannot be reconciled. Matthew and Luke differ on Joseph’s father, Mark and Acts differ on the circumstances of Judas’ death, Mark and John differ on what day of the week Jesus died. Matthew has wise men visiting baby Jesus, Luke has shedherds. Mark and Matthew differ on when the stone was rolled away from Jesus’ tomb. Mark and Luke differ on when the curtain was torn at the temple. I could go on and on and on. Any thoughts?

Is this your "ministry", Christian?
 
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Petros2015

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I could go on and on and on. Any thoughts?

I tend to prefer Luke to Matthew where there is conflict. I feel like Matthew shows signs of "drift".

There's one demon possessed man in the Legion story in Luke and Mark

Mark 5:1-20
Luke 8:26-39

but by the time we are at Matthew, there are two.

Matthew 8:28-34

Likewise, to me, some other events in Matthew seem like they may be super-embellished versions of the same events in the other gospels.

The difference between Luke 11:13

13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

and Matthew 7:11

11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

is pretty critical, I would say.

It's possible that these sermons and these sayings were given at different times, or just remembered one way and not the other. But anywhere, there is a big difference between those two verses. Both may be true... but I strongly suspect Luke is truER. At any rate, it's the one I hold to as the primary intent, whereas someone else might choose Matthew 7:11 to found a Prosperity Gospel off of, which I disagree with.

I could ask, "who was first to Jesus' tomb, how many angels did they find there, and who did they tell afterwards?" and have several different answers from the different gospels.

But... all of them were agreed on this point:

they found an empty tomb

The question of inerrancy was for me (and many others, I think) a stumbling block. Finally, I stopped asking the question "is it inerrant?" and simply asked "is it sufficient?" and found that for myself I had to answer that it was.
 
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hedrick

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I would say that the Gospels are a witness to Jesus. As such they are human works. When God wanted to redeem us, he sent his son, not a book. I do think the Gospels can give us a reasonable understanding of Jesus.

We make lots of decisions based on evidence that isn’t inerrant. Most people know how to deal with that. I have no idea how you’d establish inerrancy. Most of the arguments seem to come down to, it has to be inerrant or I could never have faith. But wanting something doesn’t make it true.
 
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Silverback

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I would say that the Gospels are a witness to Jesus. As such they are human works. When God wanted to redeem us, he sent his son, not a book. I do think the Gospels can give us a reasonable understanding of Jesus.

We make lots of decisions based on evidence that isn’t inerrant. Most people know how to deal with that. I have no idea how you’d establish inerrancy. Most of the arguments seem to come down to, it has to be inerrant or I could never have faith. But wanting something doesn’t make it true.

I came to faith on the belief that Scripture was inerrant, and that Gods word was perfect. When it comes to issues of salvation, and the Gospel message God has preserved these teachings.

Things such as names, geography, times of day, seasons and the like, I think there could be errors.

This causes me no real issue, which is uncommon amongst LCMS Lutherans.
 
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mikeforjesus

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Mark states that Jesus was crucified the morning after the Passover meal. John clearly states he died the prior day. Why the difference? Because John wants to show that Jesus IS the Passover meal

Mark 15:42 Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath,

John 19:31
Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

John 19:14
14 Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, “Behold your King!”

Mark and John explain that day was same preparation day and mark explains preparation day is day before sabbath

where does it mention jesus was crucified the morning after the Passover meal it says his crucifixion is on preparation day that is day before sabbath and Passover is same day
 
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jamiec

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Just registered today. I’m glad this forum exists. I’m a Christian and have read the Bible with emphasis on the New Testament. I believe the Bible is wonderful, inspirational, devotional, but the one thing it cannot be is historically accurate.

The gospels differ, which isn’t the issue. In many instances they have conflicting detail which cannot be reconciled. Matthew and Luke differ on Joseph’s father, Mark and Acts differ on the circumstances of Judas’ death, Mark and John differ on what day of the week Jesus died. Matthew has wise men visiting baby Jesus, Luke has shedherds. Mark and Matthew differ on when the stone was rolled away from Jesus’ tomb. Mark and Luke differ on when the curtain was torn at the temple. I could go on and on and on. Any thoughts?
I think a lot of the discrepancies can be accounted by reading the Gospels as primarily theological interpretations from different POV & and for somewhat different purposes, rather than primarily as recitals of historical fact.

Other disagreements may be the result of the authors’ (and their churches’) having access to different streams of the Christian tradition.

God is the Primary Author of all Scripture, but, even though it is truly and aptly called the Word of God, it comes to us in the words of the men who are its secondary authors. It is an entirely human production, no less than one that is in a true sense the Word of God.

And although it is in some sense “God-breathed” & “useful”, I see no reason to regard it as totally inerrant. I believe that in some sense it comes with God’s Authority behind it; but not that it is free from all error.
 
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jamiec

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Just registered today. I’m glad this forum exists. I’m a Christian and have read the Bible with emphasis on the New Testament. I believe the Bible is wonderful, inspirational, devotional, but the one thing it cannot be is historically accurate.

The gospels differ, which isn’t the issue. In many instances they have conflicting detail which cannot be reconciled. Matthew and Luke differ on Joseph’s father, Mark and Acts differ on the circumstances of Judas’ death, Mark and John differ on what day of the week Jesus died. Matthew has wise men visiting baby Jesus, Luke has shedherds. Mark and Matthew differ on when the stone was rolled away from Jesus’ tomb. Mark and Luke differ on when the curtain was torn at the temple. I could go on and on and on. Any thoughts?

About the narratives of the death of Judas: I have a theory about this.

IMO, the Matthean Judas hangs himself because, like Ahithophel the Shilonite, he has been disloyal to his King: David was Ahithophel’s King; and Jesus the Davidic Messiah-King was Judas’ King. Ahithopel gives Absalom good advice, which is banjaxed; so Ahithophel, seeing that the defeat of Absalom is certain, goes home, sets his affairs in order, and hangs himself. Judas, for Matthew, is Jesus’ Ahithophel.

For Luke, Judas ISTM is a Nadan figure. Who he ?

Ahiqar - the “Achiacharus” or “Ahikar” or “Achior” (see also the Book of Judith) of the Book of Tobit (11.18;14.10) is the hero of a tale, the Story of Ahiqar, in which - well, here is a footnote about him:

“[14:10] Nadin: in the Story of Ahiqar, the hero Ahiqar, chancellor under the Assyrian kings Sennacherib and Esarhaddon, adopts his nephew Nadin and prepares him to become his successor. But Nadin treacherously plots to have his uncle put to death. Ahiqar hides in a friend’s house and is finally vindicated when Nadin’s scheme is discovered. Thereupon Nadin is thrown into a dungeon where he dies. It was Ahiqar’s almsgiving that delivered him from death; see note on 2:2. The Greek and Latin versions of the Book of Tobit read the name as Nadab, but the Aramaic form has the ancient name Nadin, which is also found in the fifth-century B.C. Aramaic Story of Ahiqar.”

https://bible.usccb.org/bible/tobit/14?10=#17014010

Good brief article on Story of Ahiqar here: Ahikar (Achior) | Encyclopedia.com

The point is, that in some versions of the Ahiqar-story, Nadan dies by…..bursting asunder. Just like Judas.

For St Luke, Jesus is the Davidic King - and the Lucan emphasis is on His universal reign; His compassion; and, His wisdom. Judas is not, in Luke, as in Matthew, the treacherous and despairing self-hanging wise councillor of the King, but the treacherous “kinsman” of the wise King.

IMHO, both Evangelists drew upon a shared Christian tradition, and shaped it as their respective Gospels, and hearers, required. In both of them, the disciple Judas betrays Jesus, and dies as a result.

Which suggests that some of the details in the narratives of the death of Judas, are more important than others. Which suggests that some parts of the Bible are more important than others. IOW, not everything in the Bible is on the same level: some parts are more theologically central than others.

For St Matthew, Judas is a bad councillor. In Acts 1, he is a bad “bishop”. Either way, he is a bad member of the King’s Household.

And therefore, a warning: to me, to you, and to any and every Christian. The people in the Gospels are not in essence different from us. The Gospels are sacraments in motion, sacred dramas that happen when heard or read.

As for harmonisation in general:

(1) I think the discrepancies in the Bible, and its flaws & limitations generally, are present in order to prevent it turning into an object of undeserved worship. IOW, its imperfections have a positive theological & pastoral function.

(2) My instinct is, not to harmonise discrepant passages, but to wonder what, & why, they mean as they stand. I strongly dislike making passages that say different things as they stand mean the same thing, if they might not be meant to. I think we should ask, “If this passage is erroneous, or discrepant with others, why is it ? And why does it say what it does ?”.
 
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jamiec

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Mark 15:42 Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath,

John 19:31
Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

John 19:14
14 Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, “Behold your King!”

Mark and John explain that day was same preparation day and mark explains preparation day is day before sabbath

where does it mention jesus was crucified the morning after the Passover meal it says his crucifixion is on preparation day that is day before sabbath and Passover is same day
There may be a solution to those discrepancies, but it would not bother me unduly if there were not.
 
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OzSpen

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Just registered today. I’m glad this forum exists. I’m a Christian and have read the Bible with emphasis on the New Testament. I believe the Bible is wonderful, inspirational, devotional, but the one thing it cannot be is historically accurate.

The gospels differ, which isn’t the issue. In many instances they have conflicting detail which cannot be reconciled. Matthew and Luke differ on Joseph’s father, Mark and Acts differ on the circumstances of Judas’ death, Mark and John differ on what day of the week Jesus died. Matthew has wise men visiting baby Jesus, Luke has shedherds. Mark and Matthew differ on when the stone was rolled away from Jesus’ tomb. Mark and Luke differ on when the curtain was torn at the temple. I could go on and on and on. Any thoughts?

Ponder,

Those are your assertions. I await your details on why the Bible "cannot be historically accurate."

Oz
 
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Bob_1000

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Just registered today. I’m glad this forum exists. I’m a Christian and have read the Bible with emphasis on the New Testament. I believe the Bible is wonderful, inspirational, devotional, but the one thing it cannot be is historically accurate.

The gospels differ, which isn’t the issue. In many instances they have conflicting detail which cannot be reconciled. Matthew and Luke differ on Joseph’s father, Mark and Acts differ on the circumstances of Judas’ death, Mark and John differ on what day of the week Jesus died. Matthew has wise men visiting baby Jesus, Luke has shedherds. Mark and Matthew differ on when the stone was rolled away from Jesus’ tomb. Mark and Luke differ on when the curtain was torn at the temple. I could go on and on and on. Any thoughts?
Didn't you notice that the lineage in Matthew started with Abraham, the FATHER of our faith and the lineage in Luke started with Adam the FATHER of all earthly lineages?

Matthew and Luke differ because Luke is the earthly lineage of Jesus and Matthew is the spiritual lineage of Jesus.
 
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OzSpen

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Just registered today. I’m glad this forum exists. I’m a Christian and have read the Bible with emphasis on the New Testament. I believe the Bible is wonderful, inspirational, devotional, but the one thing it cannot be is historically accurate.

Ponder7,

Which criteria do you use to determine if any historical writing is accurate or not?

Oz
 
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pescador

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Just registered today. I’m glad this forum exists. I’m a Christian and have read the Bible with emphasis on the New Testament. I believe the Bible is wonderful, inspirational, devotional, but the one thing it cannot be is historically accurate.

The gospels differ, which isn’t the issue. In many instances they have conflicting detail which cannot be reconciled. Matthew and Luke differ on Joseph’s father, Mark and Acts differ on the circumstances of Judas’ death, Mark and John differ on what day of the week Jesus died. Matthew has wise men visiting baby Jesus, Luke has shedherds. Mark and Matthew differ on when the stone was rolled away from Jesus’ tomb. Mark and Luke differ on when the curtain was torn at the temple. I could go on and on and on. Any thoughts?

The Bible is not a history book or journalism. It is the inspired word of God, written for our spiritual instruction and edification.
 
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Just registered today. I’m glad this forum exists. I’m a Christian and have read the Bible with emphasis on the New Testament. I believe the Bible is wonderful, inspirational, devotional, but the one thing it cannot be is historically accurate.

The gospels differ, which isn’t the issue. In many instances they have conflicting detail which cannot be reconciled. Matthew and Luke differ on Joseph’s father, Mark and Acts differ on the circumstances of Judas’ death, Mark and John differ on what day of the week Jesus died. Matthew has wise men visiting baby Jesus, Luke has shedherds. Mark and Matthew differ on when the stone was rolled away from Jesus’ tomb. Mark and Luke differ on when the curtain was torn at the temple. I could go on and on and on. Any thoughts?

Welcome to the forum. You're in for an interesting "ride".
 
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pescador

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There is a multitude of contradictions which cannot be reconciled.

Reconciled to what? There is no reason to think that a multitude of logical contradictions means much. To those guided by the Spirit of God the Bible is an inerrant source of instruction and inspiration. Why do you feel the need to reconcile?
 
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pescador

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Those can fit together easily. E.g-- They came at different times.



Think on context: He would not have a modern thick rope!

It was an act of the moment, and maybe he used anything he had in his possession, like an old sash, worn and weak.

The material could break.

To gain wonderful things, don't approach with this kind of focus in thinking to find something wrong.

Just read with listening to what Jesus taught, to hear the messages.

I agree 100% with your last two sentences!
 
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OzSpen

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The Bible is not a history book or journalism. It is the inspired word of God, written for our spiritual instruction and edification.

pescador,

Are there any incidents in OT and NT that are historical?

You say the Bible is not a history book, but ancient historians and archaeologists disagree with you. See:
  1. Is the New Testament History? Dr Paul Barnett (Hodder & Stoughton 1986 / Aquila Press, Sydney South, Australia, 2003)
  2. The Historical Reliability of the Gospels, Craig Blomberg (Downers Grove, Ill: Inter-Varsity Press, 1987).
  3. Egyptologist, Dr K A Kitchen, On the Reliability of the Old Testament (Grand Rapids, MI / Cambridge UK: William B Eerdmans 2003).
Are you an ancient historian who knows the criteria of historicity and can discern the historical reliability of any document?

Oz
 
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pescador,

Are there any incidents in OT and NT that are historical?

You say the Bible is not a history book, but ancient historians and archaeologists disagree with you. See:
  1. Is the New Testament History? Dr Paul Barnett (Hodder & Stoughton 1986 / Aquila Press, Sydney South, Australia, 2003)
  2. The Historical Reliability of the Gospels, Craig Blomberg (Downers Grove, Ill: Inter-Varsity Press, 1987).
  3. Egyptologist, Dr K A Kitchen, On the Reliability of the Old Testament (Grand Rapids, MI / Cambridge UK: William B Eerdmans 2003).
Are you an ancient historian who knows the criteria of historicity and can discern the historical reliability of any document?

Oz

The sense of your post is that you're personally challenging me, so I'm hesitant to respond. I will however, with the caveat that I will drop the discussion if you can't be more reasonable.

The Bible is not a history book in the sense that it is a consistent, verifiable, chronological account of events. If that was the case, there would be no contradictions. All one has to do is read the gospels to see that is the case. For example, when did Jesus go to the temple and overturn the tables? The accounts differ, so which one is historically correct?

And I'm not going to respond to your reductio ad absurdem: are there any incidents in OT and NT that are historical?
 
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