Massachusettes sees at least 80 deaths from Covid among the vaccinated

Aldebaran

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A political weapon? Really? In what way? In how it is being reframed as a rights issues instead of a health issue.

I'll trust the science when science has learned enough to teach the rest of us.
 
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Aldebaran

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Your kinda shooting your foot there, that's the point, covid is filling up hospitals in ways that the flu never did.

Then the Flu shot was never needed.
 
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rambot

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I'll trust the science when science has learned enough to teach the rest of us.
Question: Do you believe that COVID19 is just the flu or that it's maybe a tad more serious than that?
 
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Aldebaran

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Question: Do you believe that COVID19 is just the flu or that it's maybe a tad more serious than that?

Where is this leading to?
 
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rambot

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Where is this leading to?
This isn't Jewish dialects and is a simple question. What keeps people from answering simple questions? It's not a trap.

Given your avoidance, I will just assume that yes you do agree it's slightly more seirous than the seasonal flu.

And you'd be right.

AND you'd be listening to what science has taught you so far. So there ARE lesson of the science that you ARE willing to accept; where that line is, who knows though.
 
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Aldebaran

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This isn't Jewish dialects and is a simple question. What keeps people from answering simple questions? It's not a trap.

Given your avoidance, I will just assume that yes you do agree it's slightly more seirous than the seasonal flu.

And you'd be right.

AND you'd be listening to what science has taught you so far. So there ARE lesson of the science that you ARE willing to accept; where that line is, who knows though.

You're putting words in my mouth and then drawing conclusions based on that alone.
If I believed it was more serious, it would be because that's what the outcome has been. It would not be based on "scientists/politicians" telling me that a person who tested positive and then got ran over by a bus died from Covid, or that a person who got the shots, and then got Covid a week later were actually "unvaccinated".
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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Your kinda shooting your foot there, that's the point, covid is filling up hospitals in ways that the flu never did.
Responding to your statement: "Covid is more like the flu, where your immunity doesn't last more then a few years to that one strain, then add in that there is multiple strains rotating. Eventually a mutation will hit the area your antibodies are designed for.

No, you are the one saying contradictory things. "Covid is like the flu."

The flu hospitalizes only susceptible people (well, except for 2020 when flu magically vanished). Around HALF of all people in this country get a flu shot - the other half do not.

So you are arguing that it is like the flu and not like the flu.
 
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loveofourlord

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Responding to your statement: "Covid is more like the flu, where your immunity doesn't last more then a few years to that one strain, then add in that there is multiple strains rotating. Eventually a mutation will hit the area your antibodies are designed for.

No, you are the one saying contradictory things. "Covid is like the flu."

The flu hospitalizes only susceptible people (well, except for 2020 when flu magically vanished). Around HALF of all people in this country get a flu shot - the other half do not.

So you are arguing that it is like the flu and not like the flu.

Is childish responses the best you have? guess I will just ignore everything you say now if that's your level of argumentation.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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Is childish responses the best you have? guess I will just ignore everything you say now if that's your level of argumentation.
I am pointing out the logic you are using. But sure...you can pretend this is about me. Whatever you need to do to feel better.

Or you could address the statement, which is the adult thing to do, rather than hurl an ad hominem.
 
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rambot

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You're putting words in my mouth and then drawing conclusions based on that alone.
If you don't engage by answering my questions then seriously, what do you expect from me?
If I believed it was more serious, it would be because that's what the outcome has been. It would not be based on "scientists/politicians" telling me that a person who tested positive and then got ran over by a bus died from Covid, or that a person who got the shots, and then got Covid a week later were actually "unvaccinated".
This answer is a trainwreck.
1) Scientists were saying it was more serious WAAAAAAY back almost in 03/2020. So great. You "figured out" what scientists were telling you ALMOST a year earlier all on your own. I'm really not sure why that is a good thing, at all. Imagine if society ALL took that attitude:
"The people who study and understand disease are telling us it's bad but ignore them. Lets just wait to see how this disease plays out, then we'll be able to figure it out on our own." It just feels so illogical to me.
That said, that is CERTAINLY Trump's outlook too "Don't trust people smarter than you who are closer to the data and also undercut their credibility by saying "so called" or putting their titles like 'scientists' in quotation marks.
2) If you get run over by a bus but your wounds are such that they are not lethal (say...broken ribs and various and sundry other broken bones) BUT because you have COVID your body is unable to support itself, then yes you die from COVID.
This one is the MOST hilarious to me because it presumes that doctors WHO ARE TREATING THE PATIENT are too stupid to figure out what people died from.
Geez. What hubris exists in that argument.
3) If you stopped listening to quacks and listened to the folks who developed and worked on the vaccine you'd understand why "a week later" is unvaccinated.

What is keeping you from listening to the people who can tell you that information?
 
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loveofourlord

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I am pointing out the logic you are using. But sure...you can pretend this is about me. Whatever you need to do to feel better.

Or you could address the statement, which is the adult thing to do, rather than hurl an ad hominem.

what statement, you made a idiotic comment that 3 year olds use and expect a actual response, use a grownup argument and maybe we can have a actual conversation. But fine I will be nice this one time, and last time I will respond to childish arguments.

You do realize that saying X is like Y in one case, isn't the same as what you guys have been saying for almost 2 years X is Y.

The kind of argument we've been attacking is, "it's just another flu, or it's just the flu." as in deaths and harm, I was talking about MUTATION rate which was zero to do with your own argument. So quit it with the childish arguments of, "HAH YOU SAID BLACK!..."and have a real conversation.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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"Safe and effective"=5,166 sick and 80 dead.
Correct. Safe because while those people are getting sick and dying they are doing so from Covid and not from the vaccine. Effective because while there are that many getting sick and dying it's a very, very small amount compared to the unvaccinated. So yeah, safe and effective.

It's like just about any safety measure - it is not perfect but it doesn't harm the vast majority of people using it and it actually saves the vast majority of using it from the thing that it's supposed to protect them from. Just like seat belts are safe and effective - even though a tiny number of people die from the seat belts and another small number of people die despite using seat belts, in the vast majority of cases the seat belts save lives which would have been deaths if not for the seat belts.

Same can be said for treatments for almost all sicknesses and diseases and injurie as well.
 
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Aldebaran

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If you don't engage by answering my questions then seriously, what do you expect from me?

Better than to make up answers for me that I didn't give.

This answer is a trainwreck.

And you wonder why I don't bother giving an answer?

This one is the MOST hilarious to me because it presumes that doctors WHO ARE TREATING THE PATIENT are too stupid to figure out what people died from.
Geez. What hubris exists in that argument.

Not stupid at all, but rather swayed by more funding by labeling a death as a Covid death.
 
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rambot

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Better than to make up answers for me that I didn't give.
What is better? What can I do instead?
And you wonder why I don't bother giving an answer?
No. I don't wonder why you don't bother to answer a question. I wondered what you expect me to do when you DON'T answer a question.
Not stupid at all, but rather swayed by more funding by labeling a death as a Covid death.
Doubling down huh.
I mean, certainly that is libelous. Luckily for anyone who says that, it's too cowardly to ACTUALLY accuse any individual of anything and it's easier just to INSINUATE that. Baseless accusation.

Because if there's one thing that is true, it's that doctors have 0 integrity or interest in anyone's ultimate health right? That's why you go into health care....

If your understanding of a situation requires an entire job category to be lying, conniving, duplicitous, dishonest (and your not talking about investment bankers or politicians), your theory is bunko.
 
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whatbogsends

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2) If you get run over by a bus but your wounds are such that they are not lethal (say...broken ribs and various and sundry other broken bones) BUT because you have COVID your body is unable to support itself, then yes you die from COVID.
This one is the MOST hilarious to me because it presumes that doctors WHO ARE TREATING THE PATIENT are too stupid to figure out what people died from.
Geez. What hubris exists in that argument.

"Covid death" didn't mean "died from Covid" in 2020 and the early part of 2021 in many places in the US.

"If you were in hospice and had already been given a few weeks to live, and then you also were found to have COVID, that would be counted as a COVID death. It means technically even if you died of a clear alternate cause, but you had COVID at the same time, it's still listed as a COVID death. So, everyone who's listed as a COVID death doesn't mean that that was the cause of the death, but they had COVID at the time of the death." Dr. Ezike outlined.

IDPH Director explains how Covid deaths are classified (week.com)
 
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rambot

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"Covid death" didn't mean "died from Covid" in 2020 and the early part of 2021 in many places in the US.

"If you were in hospice and had already been given a few weeks to live, and then you also were found to have COVID, that would be counted as a COVID death. It means technically even if you died of a clear alternate cause, but you had COVID at the same time, it's still listed as a COVID death. So, everyone who's listed as a COVID death doesn't mean that that was the cause of the death, but they had COVID at the time of the death." Dr. Ezike outlined.

IDPH Director explains how Covid deaths are classified (week.com)
red-buzzer-asian-got-talents.gif


A week later Dr. Ezike clarified her statement. I know because this quote was brought up before and I found a quote from the same lady that clarified this comment.

Regardless EVEN IF THAT WERE VERBATIM TOTALLY TRUE, that is only ONE state.
Soo.....
 
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whatbogsends

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A week later Dr. Ezike clarified her statement. I know because this quote was brought up before and I found a quote from the same lady that clarified this comment.

Regardless EVEN IF THAT WERE VERBATIM TOTALLY TRUE, that is only ONE state.
Soo.....

PORTLAND, Ore. — Fred Creasy was diagnosed with stage 4 colon cancer at the end of June. Doctors gave the 81-year-old just 30 days to live. He died at the end of July while in hospice care at Avamere Rehabilitation Facility in Newport.

“They told my daughter you better come down here because it's going to be today. And within five hours he was gone,” said daughter Rhonda McCrary.


McCrary said her father tested positive for COVID-19 around the same time of his cancer diagnosis.

“He had no symptoms. He wasn't even quarantined,” said McCrary.

McCrary said her dad died from advanced cancer and Avamere considered Creasy recovered from the coronavirus. A few days after his death, Lincoln County Public Health reported Creasy as the county’s ninth COVID-19 death.

“I mean, that’s not what he died from. He died from colon cancer, not COVID and places are listing loved ones as COVID deaths. And they're labeling that and it's just not true,” said McCrary.

McCrary said Creasy died with COVID-19, not from COVID-19, and there’s obviously a difference.

Other families across Oregon are also questioning why their loved ones are being counted as COVID-19 deaths, including the family of a 26-year-old Oregon man who was listed as a COVID-19 death but tested negative for the virus.



According to the Oregon Health Authority (OHA), there is no difference when it comes to tracking and reporting COVID deaths. OHA spokesman Jonathan Modie explained in an email how the state determines what is counted as a COVID-19 death:

We consider COVID-19 deaths to be:

Deaths in which a patient hospitalized for any reason within 14 days of a positive COVID-19 test result dies in the hospital or within the 60 days following discharge.

Deaths in which COVID-19 is listed as a primary or contributing cause of death on a death certificate.

We count COVID-19 deaths this way because the virus can often have effects on an individual’s health that may complicate their recovery from other diseases and conditions, even injuries, and indirectly contribute to their death. Another reason is because OHA is using this data to track the spread of the disease, and to create actionable steps for stopping its spread.



Colorado previously reported deaths the same way Oregon does. State health officials were counting people who died from COVID-19 and with COVID-19 as the same thing. But after public outcry, the state changed how they reported coronavirus deaths to differentiate between people who died from COVID-19 and people who died with COVID-19.

“As a clinician and as a physician, that kind of classification makes a lot more sense to me because then we've got more granularity on the data and we know exactly who is directly related to COVID, whereas who may have just died while being infected with COVID,” said Dr. Kohli.

Dying with COVID and dying from COVID are same thing in Oregon | kgw.com

Now, we're up to 3 states.
 
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Aldebaran

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What is better? What can I do instead?

Are you implying that you can't think of anything better to do when someone doesn't answer your question than to make up answers? How about just accepting that someone sees your question as being a leading question, and realize the person didn't take the bait?

No. I don't wonder why you don't bother to answer a question. I wondered what you expect me to do when you DON'T answer a question.

Accept it and move on.

Doubling down huh.
I mean, certainly that is libelous. Luckily for anyone who says that, it's too cowardly to ACTUALLY accuse any individual of anything and it's easier just to INSINUATE that. Baseless accusation.

Because if there's one thing that is true, it's that doctors have 0 integrity or interest in anyone's ultimate health right? That's why you go into health care....

If your understanding of a situation requires an entire job category to be lying, conniving, duplicitous, dishonest (and your not talking about investment bankers or politicians), your theory is bunko.

Doctors work within a bureaucracy of regulations, insurance, and now government pressure. So do hospitals. I know you won't accept this, just as you won't accept someone not answering your questions. But that's not my problem.
BTW, read post 159 for an example of what I just said.
 
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