I never get tired of hearing the Gospel...

Clare73 said:

The one gospel of Jesus Christ goes by many different names in the NT, but they're all still one and the same gospel of Jesus Christ to the world:

the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew, Mark),
gospel of the kingdom of heaven (Matthew),
good news (gospel) of the kingdom (Matthew),
gospel of the kingdom of God (Luke),
the gospel of Jesus Christ (Mark),
the gospel of God (Paul),
the gospel of God's grace (Paul),
the gospel of Christ (Paul),
Christ's gospel (Paul),
the gospel of our Lord (Paul),
the gospel of peace (Paul),
my gospel (Paul),
our gospel (Paul),
the gospel preached of me (Paul),
etc.

Click to expand...

The sure mercies of David are only needed if Laws are there to be broken.
So... the Everlasting Covenant has nothing at all to do with Paul's gentile gospel.

Matthew 5:19 says Commandments in the Kingdom of Heaven are able... not only to be taught against... but broken... all of the Sermon on the Mount is Kingdom Law. Therefore, Kingdom Law is the home-base of the Gospel of the Kingdom.

And since the keeping of this Kingdom Law is how sheep are given the Holy Spirit
in John 14:15-17... it follows that Galatians 3:5 is an entirely different gospel.

Ligurian said:

The sure mercies of David are only needed if Laws are there to be broken.
So... the Everlasting Covenant has nothing at all to do with Paul's gentile gospel.

Click to expand...

I'm thinking we have no basis for discussion.

Ligurian said:

The hidden half of the gentile gospel:

15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
------------------------------------

Galatians 2:7-9

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Peter taught what Jesus taught: The Gospel of the Kingdom.

Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Matthew 10:5-7 These Twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Matthew 24:14 And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Click to expand...

as did Paul
“And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬



there’s only the one gospel in reality there is no gentile gospel and Jewish gospel . Israel rejected the gospel and it was sent out to all the world for anyone who believes Paul was only a witness of the gospel to the Gentiles as we’re the rest also like Peter preaching to Gentiles here














“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-39, 42-45, 47-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬




they all believed Jesus died and rose whether jew or gentile and we all need to accept the Gospel of the kingdom whether Paul or Peter or John preached it . There’s only one gospel and it’s for everyone Paul’s mystery revealed was Jew and gentile were part of the same body partakers by the same gospel


“How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭3:3, 5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Soyeong said:

I agree that the people in darkness are referring to the same group, so do you consider that group to be Gentiles?

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The great thing about the gospel is it does away with Jew and gentile and makes one believing people out of all nations it’s Abraham’s promise coming to pass

“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul’s revelation was that Gentiles were to be included by the gospel
“That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭3:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s revelation of what Jesus had already said


“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Ligurian said:

The sure mercies of David are only needed if Laws are there to be broken.
So... the Everlasting Covenant has nothing at all to do with Paul's gentile gospel.

Matthew 5:19 says Commandments in the Kingdom of Heaven are able... not only to be taught against... but broken... all of the Sermon on the Mount is Kingdom Law. Therefore, Kingdom Law is the home-base of the Gospel of the Kingdom.

And since the keeping of this Kingdom Law is how sheep are given the Holy Spirit
in John 14:15-17... it follows that Galatians 3:5 is an entirely different gospel.

Click to expand...

Clare73 said:

I'm thinking we have no basis for discussion.

Click to expand...

Philippians 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

yeah... amazing.

Ligurian said:

the Everlasting Covenant has nothing at all to do with Paul's gentile gospel.

Click to expand...

Clare73 said:

I'm thinking we have no basis for discussion.

Click to expand...

Ligurian said:

Philippians 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of those mutilators of the flesh. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Click to expand...

"Gentile gospel" to the Philippians who are the circumcision?

yeah... amazing.

Click to expand...

I'll say!

You are too confused. . .we have no basis for discussion.

Ligurian said:

The hidden half of the gentile gospel:

15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
------------------------------------

Galatians 2:7-9

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x
Peter taught what Jesus taught: The Gospel of the Kingdom.

Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Matthew 10:5-7 These Twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Matthew 24:14 And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Click to expand...

Pilgrims hope said:

as did Paul
“And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s only the one gospel in reality there is no gentile gospel and Jewish gospel . Israel rejected the gospel and it was sent out to all the world for anyone who believes Paul was only a witness of the gospel to the Gentiles as we’re the rest also like Peter preaching to Gentiles here

‬‬

Click to expand...

So... even though all Paul taught is that Jesus is the Messiah... they're the same thing to you? Even though Paul taught righteousness apart from the Law... and Jesus taught the Law of the Kingdom in the Sermon on the Mount... they're the same gospel to you?

And which Peter was that, anyway?

1Cor.3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
1Cor.9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and [as] the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
1Cor.15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
Gal.2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Luke doesn't know anyone named Cephas, but calls Paul's Cephas of Galatians 2:9, by the name Peter, in Acts 15:7... while Act's James calls Luke's Peter the name Simeon, in Acts 15:14.

1 Peter 1:1 Peter [the] apostle [of] Jesus Christ, [to the] chosen pilgrim Diaspora, [in] Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
9:43 And it came to pass, that he tarried many days in Joppa with one Simon a tanner.
13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
27:32 And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.
13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [it]. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave [it] to Judas Iscariot, [the son] of Simon.

So... who are these men named James, Cephas, and John:
Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
... if Cephas was in Antioch when Paul went to Jerusalem to complain about the circumcision that came to Antioch from James, to talk with Peter in Acts 15:7... if Peter was already in Jerusalem?

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The Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven, for the circumcision:

Matthew 28:16-20 Then the Eleven Disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw Him, they worshipped Him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and disciple always the Nation, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

Matthew 10:5--Matthew 11:1 is one long commandment from Jesus to His Galilean Disciples, saying whom to teach and what to teach them:

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel; and as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Matthew 10:5-7 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Therefore, the 11 of Galilee were forever commanded this about Paul's gentiles: "Go not into the way of the gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not"

John 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou Me? Peter was grieved because He said unto him the third time, Lovest thou Me? And he said unto Him, Lord, Thou knowest all things; Thou knowest that I love Thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed My sheep. 18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry [thee] whither thou wouldest not. 19 This spake He, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He saith unto him, Follow Me.

Would Simon have glorified God if he hadn't fed/taught Jesus' sheep what Jesus had taught to him according to Matthew 28:19-20?
Think about what you'd have to do to the words of Jesus in order to make Peter NOT do what Jesus says... to NOT keep Jesus' Commandments...
If you're Jesus' sheep you know what this would mean.
If you're not Jesus' sheep, you won't see any problems at all.

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers Diaspora in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Pilgrims hope said:

The great thing about the gospel is it does away with Jew and gentile and makes one believing people out of all nations it’s Abraham’s promise coming to pass

“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬
“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul’s revelation was that Gentiles were to be included by the gospel
“That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭3:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s revelation of what Jesus had already said


“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Click to expand...

Before the word "gospel" had a Christian connotation, it was used to announce a king, a kingdom, and a way of living, and this is the same sense that Jesus used it by beginning his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is, so this was the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham.

In Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he might teach his children and those of his household to walk in God's ways by doing righteousness and justice so that the Lord may bring to him all that he has promised. In Genesis 26:4-5, God would multiply the offspring of Abraham as the stars of heaven, give to his offspring all these lands, and though his offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed because Abraham obeyed God's voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by making known to Him His ways that He might know Him, and Israel too, and there are many verses that describe God's law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others. God's law is how the offspring of Abraham knew how to be blessed (Psalms 119:1-3), so the fulfillment of the the promise that God made to Abraham comes through his offspring blessing the nations by turning them from their wicked ways and teaching them how to walk in God's ways in obedience to His law, which has its ultimate fulfillment in Jesus, who was sent to bless us by turning us from our wicked ways (Acts 3:25-26). So this is also how Gentiles become fellow heirs and partakers of the promise through faith.

In regard to Galatians 3:27-29, the Bible clearly refers to people who are Jews or Greeks, slaves or free, male or female, and Paul even identified as a Jew on multiple occasions (Acts 21:39, 22:3), so he was not denying the reality of these distinctions, but saying that these distinctions do not give a superior status when it comes to being in Christ and being part of Abraham's seed. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, and he walked in obedience to God's law.

Soyeong said:

Before the word "gospel" had a Christian connotation, it was used to announce a king, a kingdom, and a way of living, and this is the same sense that Jesus used it by beginning his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is, so this
was the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham.

Click to expand...

Always trying to undo the gospel of righteousness by faith apart from works (Romans 4:5, Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28). . .which was the gospel preached to Abraham in the Abrahamic Covenant, "All nations will be blessed through you" (Genesis 12:3), which is (the righteousness of) justification of the Gentiles by faith apart from works.

Clare73 said:

Always trying to undo the gospel of righteousness by faith apart from works (Romans 4:5, Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28). . .which was the gospel preached to Abraham in the Abrahamic Covenant, "All nations will be blessed through you" (Genesis 12:3), which is (the righteousness of) justification of the Gentiles by faith apart from works.

Click to expand...

I have said nothing contrary to the verses that you've cited. Saying that we are justified by faith apart from works is denying that there are any works that we can do to earn our justification and I said nothing about needing to do works in order to earn our justification. In 3:31, Paul said that our faith does not abolish God's law, but rather our faith upholds it, so he did not want us to conclude from Romans 3:28 that our faith does away with our need to obey God's law. Our faith upholds God's law, so only those who have faith will obey it and will be justified by the same faith, which is why Paul could say in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified while also using Abraham's example in Romans 4:4-5 to deny that our justification can be earned as a wage.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified, it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac, so the same faith by which he was justified was also express as works in obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification by his works as a wage. In James 2:21-23, Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage. Abraham's faith also led him to to obey God's law, which is why God fulfilled the promise through him that through his offspring all of the nations of the earth would be blessed (Genesis 26:4-5), and teaching obedience to God's law is how the offspring of Abraham knew how to be a blessing to the nations. Again, in Acts 3:25-26, Jesus is the ultimate fulfillment of that promise to be a blessing to the nations by turning us from our wickedness, and the transgression of God's law is what defines what wickedness is.

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, God's law is how his audience knew what sin, and Romans 10:16, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, and 1 Peter 4:17 all speak against those who do not obey the Gospel, but of this is contrary to justification by grace through faith. It was by grace that Noah was taught how to walk with God (Genesis 6:8-9), that Abraham was taught how to walk with God (Genesis 18:19), that Moses was taught how to walk with God (Exodus 33:13), and that David was taught how to walk with God (Psalms 119:29).

Soyeong said:

I have said nothing contrary to the verses that you've cited.

Click to expand...

"God's law was how his audience knew what sin is, so this
was the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham."

Again: The gospel preached to Abraham in the Abrahamic Covenant was the covenant promise: "All nations will be blessed through you" (Genesis 12:3), which is a promise of (the righteousness of) justification of the Gentiles by faith apart from works.

Ligurian said:

The sure mercies of David are only needed if Laws are there to be broken.
So... the Everlasting Covenant has nothing at all to do with Paul's gentile gospel.

Matthew 5:19 says Commandments in the Kingdom of Heaven are able... not only to be taught against... but broken... all of the Sermon on the Mount is Kingdom Law. Therefore, Kingdom Law is the home-base of the Gospel of the Kingdom.

And since the keeping of this Kingdom Law is how sheep are given the Holy Spirit
in John 14:15-17... it follows that Galatians 3:5 is an entirely different gospel.

Click to expand...

Pilgrims hope said:

<snip> Abraham’s promise <snip>
“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Click to expand...

There are "ten thousand teachers" says the gospel of the gentiles.


In the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven, there is only one shepherd, one voice.

Matthew 23:8-10
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, Christ; and all ye are brethren.
And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called teachers: for one is your Teacher, Christ.

John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

John 8:39 Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because thou hast hearkened to My voice.

Ligurian said:

Philippians 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

yeah... amazing.

Click to expand...

Clare73 said:

"Gentile gospel" to the Philippians who are the circumcision?

Click to expand...

I don't follow the gospel to the gentiles.

Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with money shall be surely circumcised, and My covenant shall be on your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Ligurian said:

There are "ten thousand teachers" says the gospel of the gentiles.


In the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven, there is only one shepherd, one voice.

Matthew 23:8-10
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, Christ; and all ye are brethren.
And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called teachers: for one is your Teacher, Christ.

John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

John 8:39 Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because thou hast hearkened to My voice.





I don't follow the gospel to the gentiles, because it makes no sense to me.

Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with money shall be surely circumcised, and My covenant shall be on your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Click to expand...

This is not orthodox Christianity.

Clare73 said:

"God's law was how his audience knew what sin is, so this
was the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham."

Again: The gospel preached to Abraham in the Abrahamic Covenant was the covenant promise: "All nations will be blessed through you" (Genesis 12:3), which is a promise of (the righteousness of) justification of the Gentiles by faith apart from works.

Click to expand...

Neither of those quotes state anything contrary to the verses that I've cited. Please address what I have said instead of burning a straw man.

Clare73 said:

"God's law was how his audience knew what sin is, so this
was the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham."

Again: The gospel preached to Abraham in the Abrahamic Covenant was the covenant promise: "All nations will be blessed through you" (Genesis 12:3), which is a promise of (the righteousness of) justification of the Gentiles by faith apart from works.

Click to expand...

John 8:39 Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

The Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven

Genesis 17:7 And I will establish My covenant between thee and thy seed after thee, to their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be thy God, and the God of thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give to thee and to thy seed after thee the land wherein thou sojournest, even all the land of Chanaan for an everlasting possession, and I will be to them a God. 9 And God said to Abraam, Thou also shalt fully keep My covenant, thou and thy seed after thee for their generations. 10 And this is the covenant which thou shalt fully keep between Me and you, and between thy seed after thee for their generations; every male of you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and you. 12 And the child of eight days old shall be circumcised by you, every male throughout your generations, and the servant born in the house and he that is bought with money, of every son of a stranger, who is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with money shall be surely circumcised, and My covenant shall be on your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised male, who shall not be circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin on the eighth day, that soul shall be utterly destroyed from its family, for he has broken My covenant.

Genesis 22:15 And an angel of the Lord called Abraam the second time out of heaven, saying, 16 I have sworn by myself, says the Lord, because thou hast done this thing, and on my account hast not spared thy beloved son, 17 surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven, and as the sand which is by the shore of the sea, and thy seed shall inherit the cities of their enemies. 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because thou hast hearkened to My voice.

James 1:1 to the twelve tribes... James 2:21-23 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

John 15:13-14 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are My friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Matthew 7:24-25

Ligurian said:

Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with money shall be surely circumcised, and My covenant shall be on your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Click to expand...

Clare73 said:

This is not orthodox Christianity.

Click to expand...

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet [have ye] not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Galatians 2:7-9

Matthew 23:8-10 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called teachers: for one is your Teacher, Christ.

Soyeong said:

Neither of those quotes state anything contrary to the verses that I've cited. Please address what I have said instead of burning a straw man.

Click to expand...

The first quote is yours.

Ligurian said:

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet [have ye] not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

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I'll leave it to you to sort out the meaning of the above.

Soyeong said:

I have said nothing contrary to the verses that you've cited. Saying that we are justified by faith apart from works is denying that there are any works that we can do to earn our justification and I said nothing about needing to do works in order to earn our justification. In 3:31, Paul said that our faith does not abolish God's law, but rather our faith upholds it, so he did not want us to conclude from Romans 3:28 that our faith does away with our need to obey God's law. Our faith upholds God's law, so only those who have faith will obey it and will be justified by the same faith, which is why Paul could say in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified while also using Abraham's example in Romans 4:4-5 to deny that our justification can be earned as a wage.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified, it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac, so the same faith by which he was justified was also express as works in obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification by his works as a wage. In James 2:21-23, Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage. Abraham's faith also led him to to obey God's law, which is why God fulfilled the promise through him that through his offspring all of the nations of the earth would be blessed (Genesis 26:4-5), and teaching obedience to God's law is how the offspring of Abraham knew how to be a blessing to the nations. Again, in Acts 3:25-26, Jesus is the ultimate fulfillment of that promise to be a blessing to the nations by turning us from our wickedness, and the transgression of God's law is what defines what wickedness is.

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, God's law is how his audience knew what sin, and Romans 10:16, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, and 1 Peter 4:17 all speak against those who do not obey the Gospel, but of this is contrary to justification by grace through faith. It was by grace that Noah was taught how to walk with God (Genesis 6:8-9), that Abraham was taught how to walk with God (Genesis 18:19), that Moses was taught how to walk with God (Exodus 33:13), and that David was taught how to walk with God (Psalms 119:29).

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What do you do with the Pauline verses that do away with Abraham's actual seed and replace it with gentiles who work without Law? Like the ones where somehow the circumcision is made uncircumcision by breaking the Law. David broke the Law and repented... on his knees, in tears... to become a man after God's own heart. This is the "sure mercies of David" upon which the Everlasting Covenant is based. Does anyone seriously think that David became the uncircumcision by breaking the Law? Could Jesus have come from the seed of theoretically-uncircumcision-David?

Ligurian said:

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 1 Corinthians 4:15 ........... Galatians 2:7-9
Matthew 23:8-10 Neither be ye called teachers: for one is your Teacher, Christ.

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Clare73 said:

I'll leave it to you to sort out the meaning of the above.

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