Does going against John Calvin mean going against God?

Hmm

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Again, no. The offer is genuine. You have not shown how it is not.

We are told to be confident in out salvation:

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 5:13​

The fact that the Calvanist paradigm doesn't allow anyone to have this confidence because it's impossible for anyone to know whether they're in the Elect team (predestined to salvation) or the Reprobates (predestined to damnation) until they die and find out experientially then shows that the offer of Calvanist salvation is a false one.

I asked you if you are and Elect or a Reprobate in my last post and you didn't respond. Could that be because there's no way for you to know?

I'm genuinely curious as to what it is you get out of Calvanism if it can't offer you the assurance John tells us should be ours, other than a lot of anxiety of course.
 
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Derf

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We are told to be confident in out salvation:

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 5:13​

The fact that the Calvanist paradigm doesn't allow anyone to have this confidence because it's impossible for anyone to know whether they're in the Elect team (predestined to salvation) or the Reprobates (predestined to damnation) until they die and find out experientially then shows that the offer of Calvanist salvation is a false one.

I asked you if you are and Elect or a Reprobate in my last post and you didn't respond. Could that be because there's no way for you to know?

I'm genuinely curious as to what it is you get out of Calvanism if it can't offer you the assurance John tells us should be ours, other than a lot of anxiety of course.
There’s nothing one can do as a Calvinist, so they have to act like something else. I.e., when it comes to salvation, who does a Calvinist act like? Arminians. When it comes to prayer, who does a Calvinist act like? An open theist.

Calvinism is useless as a theology, as it gives no hope to the hopeless AND the hopeful. They have to borrow from other theologies for their own assurance of salvation.
 
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Cormack

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Well, aren't you kind!

There there, precious. You’re not really green eggs and ham.

Your plastic template can be altered too easily, and I won't be trapped by it.

Since you’re already bagged and tagged into the stale determinist camp, there’s nothing for you to evade or be “trapped by.”

It’s simply a matter of having the confidence to describe your own views without retreating into cliches and canned talking points. Wanting so eagerly to shake labels and hide the content of your own theology only shows users that you’re not confident in the theological fortune cookies you readily serve into the discussion.

The fact you refuse to acknowledge God's economy of operation is not OUR system of thinking tells me why you can't understand how what I said explains how it is genuine.

Well, that’s just rank presuppositionalism. Of course I’m not going to acknowledge that Calvinism is “Gods economy of operations,” because it’s simply an unintelligible systematic that people have constructed. You can’t explain how Gods non offer of salvation to the lost sinner would be genuine, rather you assert it’s genuine and can do nothing more.

Asserting something isn’t the same as explaining something, and replying to me isn’t the same thing as responding to my points. You’re not able to respond.

Not to get into the fact that you consider God "a father",

Very unchristian belief there. God as Fatherly…. Where do people ever get that idea. It’s better to have your view of God as the anti Santa. :gift::christmastree: He’s offering the gift of life to people, but there’s nothing in his sack.

Seems fair in this, since you claim I invoke infinite elasticity,

But here you say I "invoke infinite elasticity of words", (yes, that's a quote too);

“Reed Richards is elastic. Sue can fade from sight. Johnny is the Human Torch. The Thing just loves to fight. Call the four. Fantastic Four!” :thoughtballoon: You’re literally Mr. Fantastic @ this point.

I asked you if you are and Elect or a Reprobate in my last post and you didn't respond. Could that be because there's no way for you to know?

I’d love to stop meming on Reed Richards long enough to get an answer here. :tearsofjoy:
 
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Saint Steven

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I asked you if you are and Elect or a Reprobate in my last post and you didn't respond. Could that be because there's no way for you to know?

I'm genuinely curious as to what it is you get out of Calvanism if it can't offer you the assurance John tells us should be ours, other than a lot of anxiety of course.
Wow. That's some useful info there.
 
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John Mullally

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I asked you if you are and Elect or a Reprobate in my last post and you didn't respond. Could that be because there's no way for you to know?
The following is a quote from Cormack in 2020 concerning Calvinism and assurance of salvation that should cause one pause.

John Calvin certainly believed in the Spirits witness, but that doesn’t mean he could confidently affirm his salvation or that God wanted him to be saved. Calvin believed in “the dreaded false hope,” a condition of divine origin that deluded and misled believers into thinking they’re saved, when in reality they’re lost.

So there’s no assurance of salvation if you follow John Calvin religiously, since you could easily be the victim of a false witness as many were before you. If you’d like the quotation from Calvin himself I’d be happy to provide that in a follow up response.​
 
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Hmm

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So there’s no assurance of salvation if you follow John Calvin religiously, since you could easily be the victim of a false witness as many were before you. If you’d like the quotation from Calvin himself I’d be happy to provide that in a follow up response.

These beliefs are guaranteed to Induce anxiety. And then what do you do, go and see a Calvanist therapist who is only able to tell you that there's nothing you can do about it?

Thanks for the offer to provide a quote from Calvin himself but it's nearly bedtime and I don't want to have nightmares!
 
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Mark Quayle

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We are told to be confident in out salvation:

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 5:13​

The fact that the Calvanist paradigm doesn't allow anyone to have this confidence because it's impossible for anyone to know whether they're in the Elect team (predestined to salvation) or the Reprobates (predestined to damnation) until they die and find out experientially then shows that the offer of Calvanist salvation is a false one.

I asked you if you are and Elect or a Reprobate in my last post and you didn't respond. Could that be because there's no way for you to know?

I'm genuinely curious as to what it is you get out of Calvanism if it can't offer you the assurance John tells us should be ours, other than a lot of anxiety of course.
I must have not seen your post asking if I was elect or reprobate. Or missed that part of it. I am elect, but no, I don't know why God would choose me. But that's his business.

Years ago, I had anxiety about it, when I was Arminian-leaning and believed in free-will; because I knew very well that if it depended on the sincerity of my choice, I was lost. But now, I see it depends on God's choice, and I am secure. Confident. NOW I have assurance. I can't even remember the last time I was anxious about whether I truly belonged to Christ. It has to have been at least 30 years now.

I honestly don't know how you can believe in eternal security if it hinges on human ability to choose.
 
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Mark Quayle

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The following is a quote from Cormack in 2020 concerning Calvinism and assurance of salvation that should cause one pause.

John Calvin certainly believed in the Spirits witness, but that doesn’t mean he could confidently affirm his salvation or that God wanted him to be saved. Calvin believed in “the dreaded false hope,” a condition of divine origin that deluded and misled believers into thinking they’re saved, when in reality they’re lost.

So there’s no assurance of salvation if you follow John Calvin religiously, since you could easily be the victim of a false witness as many were before you. If you’d like the quotation from Calvin himself I’d be happy to provide that in a follow up response.​
Calvin isn't my problem. You guys can take up with him all you want. I consider myself Reformed (not exactly Calvinist) and that only because it most closely resembles what I believe.

Calvin isn't the one who told me that logically it is possible I am fooling myself, so I must admit it is possible. Not only must I admit it is logically possible, but I will adamantly claim that my own mind and force of will is not up to the task of reassuring me, as it seems you guys must do for your own reassurance. Calvin also did not tell me that God does exactly what you describe there, to people, for the very purpose Calvin claimed. The Bible told me that. But the Spirit witnesses to my spirit that I am a child of God, and I have found it impossible to deny. God is my assurance; and I am satisfied with his happiness, regardless of whether I have fooled myself or not. I do not live in fear of misapprehension of the Gospel.
 
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John Mullally

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I thought it was rough enough that humanity has Satan as an adversary - even to the point of blinding many to the light of the gospel.

2 Corinthians 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.​

That we also have theologians, like John Calvin, who contradict Paul and state that God is also frequently in that same business:

Institutes 3.24.8 The expression of our Savior, "Many are called, but few are chosen," (Mat 22: 14), is also very improperly interpreted, (see 3.2.11 and 12). There will be no ambiguity in it, if we attend to what our former remarks ought to have made clear, viz., that there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.
 
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Hmm

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I honestly don't know how you can believe in eternal security if it hinges on human ability to choose.

I agree, if we believe our eternal security hinges on us making the right decisions or doing the right things then we can't ever known for sure that we will be saved. I'm a new but hopefully non-fanatical Christian Universalist so I believe that we are all or will all be saved - we're all elect if you like.

Of course I have some doubt because I don't know for sure that Christianity is correct. I don't think there's any way around that but it's very much a hypothetical doubt to me, no more than the possibility that my girlfriend is actually a Russian spy and only going out with me for cover - that may be true and I'll never know that it's not but it's not something I worry about.
 
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Hmm

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Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.

That's pretty disturbing. A hardcore Calvanist would never know whether they're in that category or not. Are they elect or only once enlightened but now blinded and so still continuing to believe in their election but that's now false. It would feel like having a real faith with a trusting relationship with God but it's actually a delusion that God has created in you.

You could be talking to two Calvanists about their faith and each describe the same beliefs, feelings, experiences of God and sense of assurance that they are saved but one will be true (in Calvanist eyes) and one will be false and they'd be no way, even for them, of telling which one is which. It's like one of those riddles about someone who always tells the truth and someone who always tells lies and you have to guess which one is the liar.
 
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Saint Steven

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I honestly don't know how you can believe in eternal security if it hinges on human ability to choose.
Another alignment with UR. There may be hope for you yet. - lol
 
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Derf

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I must have not seen your post asking if I was elect or reprobate. Or missed that part of it. I am elect, but no, I don't know why God would choose me. But that's his business.

Years ago, I had anxiety about it, when I was Arminian-leaning and believed in free-will; because I knew very well that if it depended on the sincerity of my choice, I was lost. But now, I see it depends on God's choice, and I am secure. Confident. NOW I have assurance. I can't even remember the last time I was anxious about whether I truly belonged to Christ. It has to have been at least 30 years now.

I honestly don't know how you can believe in eternal security if it hinges on human ability to choose.
Whether you really are elect or reprobate doesn't affect your assurance, nor would your level of anxiety, nor your level of confidence. You can't know any more that God would choose you than why He would. Faith in your assurance, no matter how sure it has been for 30 years, seems much less likely to lead to God than faith in Jesus Christ.

At the end of the day, however, you believe that you believe, whether you really believe or not, and you would have to be as happy that you're going to hell as you would be that you're going to heaven, since whichever one you get, that's the one you were made for, and can't escape, even if you wanted to (including hell). Isn't God a good God, to make us for a place and assure us that's where we belong, whether we like it or not?
 
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Bruce Leiter

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Calvinism is secret Universalism.
P1) God Loves All and desires all to be saved
P2) God Isn't halfway
P3) Gods Love is Loving his creation like the others
P4) God can give unconditional grace to everyone because he loves everyone and desire them to be saved
P5) God choosing certain people isn't love and its him being partially.
Conclusion: Calvinism is Universalism because God loves all creation and he isn't partially and he can give his unconditional grace to all creation because he loves all his creation equally.
So No nobody disagrees with the sovereignty of God, we disagree with John Calvin's core doctrine. Sorry to say but John Calvinism soft determinism fails according to my premises and conclusions, any rebuttals would be fallacious because P1 and P3 goes together do you agree?

That's not the Calvinism that I believe in. Where did you get this summary, from his Institutes or from someone's false summary. Let's face it that there are many mysteries about God because he is God, but we're not!
 
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Derf

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That's not the Calvinism that I believe in. Where did you get this summary, from his Institutes or from someone's false summary. Let's face it that there are many mysteries about God because he is God, but we're not!
We're not mysteries?
 
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Mark Quayle

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I thought it was rough enough that humanity has Satan as an adversary - even to the point of blinding many to the light of the gospel.

2 Corinthians 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.​

That we also have theologians, like John Calvin, who contradict Paul and state that God is also frequently in that same business:

Institutes 3.24.8 The expression of our Savior, "Many are called, but few are chosen," (Mat 22: 14), is also very improperly interpreted, (see 3.2.11 and 12). There will be no ambiguity in it, if we attend to what our former remarks ought to have made clear, viz., that there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.
Is this a bad translation? Is that why Calvin got it wrong? (This is the Lord saying this) from Isaiah 6: "10 Make the hearts of this people calloused; deafen their ears and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."
 
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Mark Quayle

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I agree, if we believe our eternal security hinges on us making the right decisions or doing the right things then we can't ever known for sure that we will be saved.
The question is not whether you do the right things. It is whether your decision is valid and made with full integrity and understanding of what is being undertaken vs just silly, ignorant, weak, emotional, momentary, self-important etc.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Another alignment with UR. There may be hope for you yet. - lol
There are lots of alignments with UR in Calvinism. In fact, many UR proponents are Calvinistic in many ways. I have been almost fooled more than once, by some of the things they post.
 
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