Who is King of the Pit

sovereigngrace · Sep 19, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hello All

[8] The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to perdition;

So the Beast is in the Pit, and unless you believe the fifth Trumpet has sounded he must still be in the Pit.

[10] and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Beast is not the Devil as they are thrown into the lake of fire 1,000 years apart and are clearly not the same entity.

So who is this

[11] They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit; his name in Hebrew is Abad'don, and in Greek he is called Apol'lyon.

We know he is a Fallen Angel and God has given him the title of the destroyer. Which is what Abaddon and Apollyon mean ie:"Destroyer"

So the Question is this. Is the Beast just some no name lackey in the pit or is he The King of the Pit?

Revelation is just like every other book in the Bible: it describes two kingdoms that are in constant spiritual conflict with each other. The apostle is giving insight into different aspects of the invisible and visible warfare going on in this current age. When the kingdom of darkness is described it is shown to be currently spiritually restrained and curtailed in regard to their power and influence. The kingdom of God on the other hand is depicted as a triumphant church that bring life and hope to an ignorant world.

Revelation 9 describes an abyss that is full of wicked spirits that are restrained, but will be released prior to the second coming for a short season. This is something Premils choose to overlook. The abyss is inhabited now with Satan's minions. They had a king over them (Abaddon / Apollyon), a ruler who marshalled their hosts. This is Satan - the only king in the kingdom of darkness.

The restraint of the kingdom of darkness stays in effect until just before the second coming, when hell’s legions are collectively released – for a short season at the end. The release of Satan, beast (mystery of iniquity), and demons (scorpions) all occur just prior to the second coming. This proves that the symbolism of Revelation relates to the here-and-now.

Kingdoms and their heads are basically indivisible. The head of each state (whether Monarch, President or Prime Minister) is seen as the face of the nation or the personification of what that nation is all about. They are essentially the voice of the people. Even in United Kingdom law, perpetrators of a crime are listed as “R – v the criminal” meaning “Regina v” in a legal case, Regina referring to the Queen. She is counted as the offended party, even though she was not personally injured. She is simply the representative head of the people. The leader has always been viewed as the one who stands on behalf of countless subjects.

The king and his kingdom are used synonymously and interchangeably throughout Scripture. The kingdom of God is described in Scripture in terms that are identical to God Himself. He is its head and its very purpose for existing; Satan likewise is the same in the kingdom of darkness. The kingdom of darkness is a unitary whole. It is a kingdom with a king. A kingdom is basically “a king with a domain.” The kingdom of God is a kingdom of spiritual truth, and the kingdom of darkness is a kingdom of spiritual lies and deception.

Christ didn't just defeat Satan 2,000 years ago, he defeated the demonic kingdom. Every demonic spirit was subjugated through the cross-work and placed in a place of spiritual restraint after the life, death and resurrection of Christ. The freedom and restriction that pertains to Satan permeates down through his subjects as he is the representative head.

Strong's says: “Apolluon means a destroyer (i.e. Satan).”

John Calvin rightly says, that Christ “teaches us not only that the tyranny of Satan was abolished by Christ’s death, but also that he himself was so laid prostrate, that no more account is to be made of him than as though he were not. He speaks of the devil according to the usual practice of Scripture, in the singular number, not because there is but one, but because they all form one community which cannot be supposed to be without a head.”

Satan is described as “the prince (or ruler) of the devils” in Matthew 9:34, 12:24 and Mark 3:22), although Matthew 9:34 extends the name to “Beelzebub the prince of the devils.”

Just before the second coming, Satan gets a little season to wreak havoc on the Church. When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season. Then comes the end! But Christ comes in majestic and eternal glory to overthrow the kingdom of darkness forever. The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic second coming (Isaiah 26:19-27:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10).

Maria Billingsley · Sep 19, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hi Maria

Well we are all free to believe what we want. However the Title is given to a living Entity the Angel of the Bottomless pit. Thus it is a noun and Destroyer is correct. Maria it even says it is his name and uses the Pro Noun He. He has a name!

Is it not God the One who destroys? Angels can not destroy unless the true Destroyer allows it, God Himself. Let us reason. This is why the angel is symbolic imagery a personification of destruction and death. But yes you are correct, we are free to believe what we want. Thanks for engaging!

Just The Facts · Sep 19, 2021

Hi David

DavidPT said:
The first thing to note, the text never tells us one way or the other whether the king of the pit is locked up with the locusts. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. The next thing to note, look what he is the king of---locusts that are sent out, not to torment the saved, but to torment the lost. If we compare to Revelation 11 and Revelation 13, once the beast has ascended out of the pit it makes war with the 2Ws and the saints recorded in Revelation 13. Since the 2Ws and the saints in question are not meaning the lost, but that the locusts are commanded to only torment the lost, this should maybe tell us the king of the pit meant, this is not the beast since are we never told that the beast also wages war against the lost.

A very good point Scripture does not state categorically that the King of the Pit is in the pit.

Having said that we do know that Satan is the only Fallen Angel on the loose. Peter says he is not bound.

However Jude tells us the other Fallen Angels are bound.

He Quotes Enoch here. Now I want everybody to understand Enoch is not considered Cannon because by the 4th century when the cannon books were etched in stone as it were They could not find a complete copy that was unaltered. The book had been drastically altered by various sects of Gnostics and these altered copies were used by Gnostic Bishops to Show Jesus as an Angel a created being and not the same substance as God. ie not God. Much the way SDA say Jesus is the Arch Angel Michael. So the book was banned at the Council of Nicaea the penalty for possession was death.

Now having said that Jude in his epistle quotes from the Book of Enoch So the only verses of Enoch I am quoting here are the same ones Jude Quotes. I am doing this because clearly Jude had a copy of Enoch and read it he clearly believed it was the inspired word of God. We also know Enoch was found with the dead sea scrolls, just a few fragments though.

So here is Jude

1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Which is Enoch 1:9

9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all,

Jude also quotes Enoch here and says

[6] And the angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper dwelling have been kept by him in eternal chains in the nether gloom until the judgment of the great day;

Which is a Quote from Enoch

12:4 called me -Enoch the scribe- and said to me: 'Enoch, thou scribe of righteousness, go declare to the Watchers of the heaven who have left the high heaven, the holy eternal place, and have defiled themselves with women, and have done as the children of earth do, and have taken unto themselves wives:

Which Matches with Gen 6:

[1]When men began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them,[2] the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were fair; and they took to wife such of them as they chose.

Above Jude tells us the other Angels are locked in the Pit with great chains when they will be let out of the pit and then thrown in the lake of fire. Which is exactly what happens to the Beast.

Which is yet another quote of Enoch

Enoch 10:4......'Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening 5 in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may 6,7 not see light. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire.

and again here

Enoch 54: 5 And I asked the angel of peace who went with me, saying: ' For whom are these chains being prepared ? ' And he said unto me: ' These are being prepared for the hosts of Azazel, so that they may take them and cast them into the abyss of complete condemnation, and they shall cover their jaws with rough stones as the Lord of Spirits commanded. 6 And Michael, and Gabriel, and Raphael, and Phanuel shall take hold of them on that great day, and cast them on that day into the burning furnace, that the Lord of Spirits may take vengeance on them for their unrighteousness in becoming subject to Satan and leading astray those who dwell on the earth.'

It is very clear who these Angels were and where they were to Jude.

Enoch also says to put all sin on Azazel

9 through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.'

Which is why the Hebrews did this

Lev:16:[7] Then he shall take the two goats, and set them before the LORD at the door of the tent of meeting; [8] and Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for Aza'zel. [9] And Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the LORD, and offer it as a sin offering; [10] but the goat on which the lot fell for Aza'zel shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Aza'zel.

The KJV translates it as scapegoat which where we get the expression from.

To me it is very clear even from what Jude says and what Revelation says that The Pit is full of Fallen Angels, Except for Satan who roams the Earth, and the demons cast out of people by Jesus and the Apostles and Saints. Which Enoch says are the disembodied spirits of the dead Nephilim or Giants.

So I think while it does not directly say that The King of the Pit is in the Pit I believe it is the Leader of the Fallen Angels which Jude Tells us are locked in the pit till the day of Judgement when they will be set free and then thrown in the lake of fire. Which is the exact same fate of the Beast in the pit.

Douggg · Sep 19, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Well now you are assuming it is not meaning it is the Kingdom itself.......... you are assuming it is the King that gets the deadly wound. After all a Beast is a Kingdom or the King of that Kingdom. How do you not know it meant the Beast was almost defeated in war lost its leaders but came back stronger.

I know, not assuming, that mortally wounded but healed head is the king and not the Kingdom itself - because in Revelation 17:10, the seven heads are seven kings in the text.

Just The Facts said:
You are also assuming it means the first beast of Rev 13: But no where does it say the first Beast of Rev 13 is the Beast in the pit. In fact it implies it is not. Because it rises out of the sea which means people.

The sea simply represents the nations.

I agree it does not say the mortally wounded but healed head (king) is the beast currently in the bottomless pit (the beast of Revelation 17:8a).

But what it does say that the world "wondered" after the beast - implying the mortally wounded but healed head (king), in Revelation 13:3.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Which in Revelation 17:8b (highlighted in blue), it says...8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

We have to realize that Revelation 17:8 is in two parts. About two different beings - a beast and a man - who combine to go into perdition.
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So the world will witness king 7 being killed and come back to life as king 8 - the beast king of Revelation 17:11.

However the Beast with Two Horns rises out of the Earth which is a far more likely candidate for the beast in the pit of the earth in Rv 17:.

The earth represents Israel. The false prophet will originate in Israel.

The bottomless pit (where the beast of Revelation 17:8 currently is) is even further down than hell which is called a pit in Ezekiel 28:1-10, which also gives the reason why the king 7 person is mortally wounded.

6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;

7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

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On my pictorial, I put all of those things together and show the spirit of serpent entering the slain revealed man of sin's soul, as he is being brought back to life.

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The act of 2Thessalonians2:4 is when the person, as the Antichrist (King of Israel) at the time, when he totally unexpectedly goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood - is what angers God, and the revealed man of sin ends up being killed for it.

In disdain for the person, Isaiah 14:18-20, God does not let his soul remain in hell, but returns his soul back to his lifeless body. Which will be the strong delusion in 2Thessalonians2:11 that God sends to them who believed the revealed man of sin's lie of having achieved God-hood.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

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A short narrative....

The person starts as the little horn, leader of the EU, king 7 of the Julio Claudian bloodline. The EU being the end times version of the Roman Empire, the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7.

Following Gog/Magog, the Jews think the person is the messiah, and the little horn person is anointed the King of Israel. Now he has become the Antichrist, King of Israel, but coming in his own name. He confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant in the manner described by Moses, in Deuteronomy 31-9-13, to begin the 7 years.

Three years, thereabouts, go by and he commits the transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:4, claiming to have achieved God-hood. Ends his time as the Antichrist, King of Israel, as the Jews reject him and his claim.

Revealed as the man of sin, God brings strangers against him, to kill him - likely assassinated. Ezekiel 28:1-10.

Finding his soul in hell, Isaiah 14:15-20, mocked, God in disdain for the person brings him back to life, after a few days. Not letting him having the honor of being placed in an ornate tomb.

At the time of his soul returning to his lifeless body, the spirit of the serpent beast enters his soul. The man of Revelation 17:8b and the literal beast of Revelation 17:8a combine - to go into perdition. The person from that point forward is called "the beast" in Revelation.

The ten kings of the EU kingdom, hand their kingdom over to the beast - to be dictator of the EU, king 8 of the Julio-Claudian bloodline, for the last 42 months before Jesus returns.

I realize this post has become lengthy, but a lot of things needed to be said.

Just The Facts · Sep 19, 2021

Hi Dougg

Douggg said:
I realize this post has become lengthy, but a lot of things needed to be said.

It was and mine would have to be three times as long to quote and then respond to every point you have made.

So I will deal with the first thing the beast of rev 13.

One of the problems with the chapters and verse that were added to these books is it tend to make people look at things to compartmentalized. To understand who the beast is in Rev 13 if you do not want to trust Daniel that it is the fourth Beast or Kingdom to rule the world. You then need to go back into Rv

[11] And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. [12] Rejoice then, O heaven and you that dwell therein! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!" [13] And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had borne the male child.

there are so many people who say oh this happened here or there here is what scripture says.

[17] The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!"[18] And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Here Satan falls from Heaven and these Seventy were all killed as part of the firstfruits Stephen was The first.

[13] And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had borne the male child.

As I have shown in another thread the Woman is the true church of God. Now many will argue that that is not the case Satan is cast out at a different time but look what happens next Look how Satan goes after her offspring

Now we must remember that at this point the Church is gaining ground in Judea The Church in Jerusalem is funding Paul and Peter. it is starting to spread in the Roman Empire and Paul and Peter are in Rome.

So first the Dragon goes after Judea

[15] The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood.

This is the end of Jerusalem and the Fall of Judea..How can we know this......well because prophecy ties together.

Dan 9:[26] And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed.

The Prince of the People to come is Titus the people to come is Rome and Jerusalem's end comes with a flood poured out by the Devil.

But Christians know this is coming and flee into the wilderness So the dragon is wroth with the Woman and goes after her offspring Christianity.

[17] Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. [1] And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems upon its horns and a blasphemous name upon its heads.

Clearly the Dragon is going after Christians. He Uses the Beast of Rev 13 to do this. He is not using a Man he is using a Kingdom the Fourth Kingdom that Daniel says will Trample the Saints. Rome this Beast is clearly Rome. And for the next 260 years Rome was used by Satan to persecute Christians.

This next bit is a theory albeit not necessarily what I believe
Now Rome fell in 476 AD after receiving a deadly head wound to the Capital with the Death of the Emperor and the Fall of Rome. But it was reborn in 554AD When Justinian retook Rome and the Holy Roman Empire was setup. And People said who is like the Kingdom of God on Earth Who Can Make war against God's Kingdom on Earth.

Now Doug please do not get me wrong That last paragraph is not what I am saying is the truth but I have heard it stated as the truth. I was merely trying to point out that a Kingdom can have a deadly head would heal itself and Then be considered undefeatable.

I have also heard that Rome fell that was its deadly Head wound and is reborn in the EU which is the Healed Empire. Not Totally what you believe but close.

I do Believe Rv 13 first beast is Rome of that there is no doubt in my Mind. I do not believe the deadly head wound is to The AC or Reborn Roman Emperor. I do believe the Beast from the pit will take over this empire though. However the Beast from the Pit is a Fallen Angel not a spirit in a man. Angels can appear as Men they do not need to posses someone.

At this moment I would point out to you that the Beast in Rev 13 and the Beast in Rev 17 are slightly different. I think this difference is very important and very telling.

In Rv 13 the heads have Blasphemous names and there are seven of them.......In Rev 17 the Whole beast has Blasphemous names. I believe this is because the seven heads represent the 7 kings of 10 that do not disagree with the Beast from the Pit. Notice in Daniel seven the 10 Kings do not agree and the little horn overthrows three leaving seven. In Rev 17 the Ten Kings are of one mind and all willingly give there Power to the Beast from The Pit.

This all combined Suggests that the Beast in Rev 17 is the Kingdom created when the Beast from the Pit overthrows three kings. The remaining Seven Kings become an Empire and the Beast is the Eighth King of that Empire which is the Kingdom /Beast of Rev 17: Three new Kings are assigned to replace the three fallen and all ten Kings now agree the Beast is God On Earth. This is where Daniel 11 40 picks up

Douggg · Sep 19, 2021

Just The Facts said:
I do not believe the deadly head wound is to The AC or Reborn Roman Emperor.

Do you believe this...

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

and this...

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Just The Facts · Sep 19, 2021

Hi Doug

Douggg said:
Do you believe this...

You are assuming that because it says his head it means it is a man. However the Greek word is not his that is just The KJV Translation it is "its" head not "his" head

Young's Literal Translation
13:3 And I saw one of its heads as slain to death, and its deadly stroke was healed, and all the earth did wonder after the beast,

Revised Standard Version
[3] One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth followed the beast with wonder.

The Vulgate also translates as "Its" not "his".

Often the KJV translates based on the translators belief not the actually meaning of the word in the original language.

Douggg · Sep 20, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hi Doug
You are assuming that because it says his head it means it is a man. However the Greek word is not his that is just The KJV Translation it is "its" head not "his" head

Young's Literal Translation
13:3 And I saw one of its heads as slain to death, and its deadly stroke was healed, and all the earth did wonder after the beast,

Revised Standard Version
[3] One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth followed the beast with wonder.

The Vulgate also translates as "Its" not "his".

Often the KJV translates based on the translators belief not the actually meaning of the word in the original language.

I am not just "assuming" the head means a man, but because the seven heads on the beast are kings in the text of Revelation 17:10.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

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Abaddon is someone who we cannot observe. But the little horn person when he comes to power, we should be able to readily identify because there will be a ten leader structure to the EU, and the person will be a Jew, and his religion Judaism.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 20, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hello All

[8] The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to perdition;

So the Beast is in the Pit, and unless you believe the fifth Trumpet has sounded he must still be in the Pit.

[10] and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Beast is not the Devil as they are thrown into the lake of fire 1,000 years apart and are clearly not the same entity.

So who is this

[11] They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit; his name in Hebrew is Abad'don, and in Greek he is called Apol'lyon.

We know he is a Fallen Angel and God has given him the title of the destroyer. Which is what Abaddon and Apollyon mean ie:"Destroyer"

So the Question is this. Is the Beast just some no name lackey in the pit or is he The King of the Pit?

If you understand the locusts to figuratively represent fallen angels as I do then Abaddon/Appolyon has to be referring to Satan. I say that because it says Abaddon/Apollyon is the king of the locusts and the angel of the abyss/bottomless pit (Rev 9:11). The king of the fallen angels is clearly Satan.

Revelation 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

sovereigngrace · Sep 20, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hello All

[8] The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to perdition;

So the Beast is in the Pit, and unless you believe the fifth Trumpet has sounded he must still be in the Pit.

[10] and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Beast is not the Devil as they are thrown into the lake of fire 1,000 years apart and are clearly not the same entity.

So who is this

[11] They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit; his name in Hebrew is Abad'don, and in Greek he is called Apol'lyon.

We know he is a Fallen Angel and God has given him the title of the destroyer. Which is what Abaddon and Apollyon mean ie:"Destroyer"

So the Question is this. Is the Beast just some no name lackey in the pit or is he The King of the Pit?

Premils want to divide up the kingdom of darkness when, just like the kingdom of God, they are in fact a collective whole. Premils wrongly divide up the fate of Satan, his demons and the beast into an array of disjointed and unconnected events, which are in truth the same overall ongoing experience. This is absurd because their fortune is carefully and inextricably tied together by association, necessity, intent, interdependence and divine order. When Scripture speaks about Satan he is the representative head of the whole kingdom of darkness.

When the Bible talks about the activity of the devil, it often includes the phrase “and his angels.” They are depicted as a collective whole. They move and fight as a unitary army. For example, Scripture describes them in Matthew 25:41 as “the devil and his angels,” in Revelation 12:7 as “the dragon … and his angels,” and in Revelation 12:9 as “that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan … and his angels.” When Satan was bound, the kingdom of darkness was bound (including the beast and every demon). Revelation 12:9 shows the close linkage between Satan and his minions when they were banished from heaven after the man child was caught up to His throne: “the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” Revelation 12:3- similar says: “behold a great red dragon, And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.” You cannot divide Satan from the fate of his angels.

Satan is described as “the prince (or ruler) of the devils” in Matthew 9:34, 12:24 and Mark 3:22). Matthew 9:34 extends the name to “Beelzebub the prince of the devils.” In Revelation 9:10-11 the scorpion-like demonic host (that is shown to be currently incarcerated within the abyss) are said to have “a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.” This can be no other that Satan. Strong's says: “Apolluon means a destroyer (i.e. Satan).”

When the Bible says “resist the devil, and he will flee from you” this is not limited to only Satan, it is talking about the whole demonic realm. When Satan is released prior to the second coming so also is the whole kingdom of darkness (including the beast and every demon). When they are finally punished they receive their punishment at the same time, albeit in the necessary order that Christ ordains (as we saw God judge in the Garden of Eden).

All we have to do, is examine the fate of each in Scripture and you will quickly see a remarkable correlation.

The book of Revelation consists of a number of parallel recaps relating to the intra-Advent period. Each of these refer to different subjects, entities or aspects of God's unfolding plan during that time. That does not negate the fact that God's dealings with the beast mirrors that of Satan since Christ’s first Advent. For example, the 6th recap (Revelation 17-19) focuses in on Babylon, but also shows the destruction of all the wicked, the beast and false prophet been banished into the Lake of Fire. Satan is simply not the focus of that parallel. The focus of the last recap (Revelation 20) is God's dealing with Satan. Revelation 20 goes right back to the first resurrection (Christ). It finishes with Satan being banished to the Lake of Fire.

The fate of Satan, the beast (spirit of antichrist / mystery of iniquity) and the fallen angels (demons) are all knit together in Scripture. When Satan was banished from the Garden then all evil was. They also all came under the same spiritual subjugation at the exact same time through Christ’s earthly ministry.

What happens at the end of the millennium mirrors what other Scripture tells us happens at the end of our age. There is an intense persecution at the end. Christ comes to judge as it concludes. You would need to rip more than Revelation 20 out of the Bible for it to contradict other Scripture. There is much Scripture that teaches an end-time falling away and tribulation before Christ comes. Revelation 20 fits that perfectly. Satan's season mirrors 2 Thessalonians 2 and the release of the mystery of iniquity before Jesus comes. It also mirrors the release of the beast in order to wreak havoc before Christ comes. As the ESV states: “the mystery of lawlessness is …the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish.”

The end of the millennium and Satan's "little season" corresponds with the end time persecution spoke elsewhere in Revelation and in other Scripture orchestrated by antichrist/the beast (described as lasting 3 1/2 years). The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

DavidPT · Sep 20, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hi David

A very good point Scripture does not state categorically that the King of the Pit is in the pit.

Having said that we do know that Satan is the only Fallen Angel on the loose. Peter says he is not bound.

However Jude tells us the other Fallen Angels are bound.

He Quotes Enoch here. Now I want everybody to understand Enoch is not considered Cannon because by the 4th century when the cannon books were etched in stone as it were They could not find a complete copy that was unaltered. The book had been drastically altered by various sects of Gnostics and these altered copies were used by Gnostic Bishops to Show Jesus as an Angel a created being and not the same substance as God. ie not God. Much the way SDA say Jesus is the Arch Angel Michael. So the book was banned at the Council of Nicaea the penalty for possession was death.

Now having said that Jude in his epistle quotes from the Book of Enoch So the only verses of Enoch I am quoting here are the same ones Jude Quotes. I am doing this because clearly Jude had a copy of Enoch and read it he clearly believed it was the inspired word of God. We also know Enoch was found with the dead sea scrolls, just a few fragments though.

So here is Jude

1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Which is Enoch 1:9

9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all,

Jude also quotes Enoch here and says

[6] And the angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper dwelling have been kept by him in eternal chains in the nether gloom until the judgment of the great day;

Which is a Quote from Enoch

12:4 called me -Enoch the scribe- and said to me: 'Enoch, thou scribe of righteousness, go declare to the Watchers of the heaven who have left the high heaven, the holy eternal place, and have defiled themselves with women, and have done as the children of earth do, and have taken unto themselves wives:

Which Matches with Gen 6:

[1]When men began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them,[2] the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were fair; and they took to wife such of them as they chose.

Above Jude tells us the other Angels are locked in the Pit with great chains when they will be let out of the pit and then thrown in the lake of fire. Which is exactly what happens to the Beast.

Which is yet another quote of Enoch

Enoch 10:4......'Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening 5 in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may 6,7 not see light. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire.

and again here

Enoch 54: 5 And I asked the angel of peace who went with me, saying: ' For whom are these chains being prepared ? ' And he said unto me: ' These are being prepared for the hosts of Azazel, so that they may take them and cast them into the abyss of complete condemnation, and they shall cover their jaws with rough stones as the Lord of Spirits commanded. 6 And Michael, and Gabriel, and Raphael, and Phanuel shall take hold of them on that great day, and cast them on that day into the burning furnace, that the Lord of Spirits may take vengeance on them for their unrighteousness in becoming subject to Satan and leading astray those who dwell on the earth.'

It is very clear who these Angels were and where they were to Jude.

Enoch also says to put all sin on Azazel

9 through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.'

Which is why the Hebrews did this

Lev:16:[7] Then he shall take the two goats, and set them before the LORD at the door of the tent of meeting; [8] and Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for Aza'zel. [9] And Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the LORD, and offer it as a sin offering; [10] but the goat on which the lot fell for Aza'zel shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Aza'zel.

The KJV translates it as scapegoat which where we get the expression from.

To me it is very clear even from what Jude says and what Revelation says that The Pit is full of Fallen Angels, Except for Satan who roams the Earth, and the demons cast out of people by Jesus and the Apostles and Saints. Which Enoch says are the disembodied spirits of the dead Nephilim or Giants.

So I think while it does not directly say that The King of the Pit is in the Pit I believe it is the Leader of the Fallen Angels which Jude Tells us are locked in the pit till the day of Judgement when they will be set free and then thrown in the lake of fire. Which is the exact same fate of the Beast in the pit.

Some of this I tend to be on the same page with you though we probably should ignore what the book of Enoch says since it may not be a reliable source. I don't know what to make of the book of Enoch. Apparently some early church fathers used the book of Enoch in order to conclude some of what they did. Does that mean they viewed the book of Enoch as a reliable source?; Maybe, yet that alone doesn't prove it is just because some early church fathers consulted this book. All I know is, it is debatable as what to make of the book of Enoch, thus why I indicated it may not be a reliable source. Enoch aside then since it may or may not be a reliable source, a key phrase found in Jude 1:6---the judgment of the great day.---is obviously meaning this in Revelation 16:14---that great day of God Almighty

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

The only thing is, the releasing of the locusts in Revelation 9 don't seem to match anything recorded Revelation 16:14. These locusts recorded in Revelation 9 are not set free in order to work miracles. They are set free in order to torment the lost.

Timtofly · Sep 21, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hello All

[8] The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to perdition;

So the Beast is in the Pit, and unless you believe the fifth Trumpet has sounded he must still be in the Pit.

[10] and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Beast is not the Devil as they are thrown into the lake of fire 1,000 years apart and are clearly not the same entity.

So who is this

[11] They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit; his name in Hebrew is Abad'don, and in Greek he is called Apol'lyon.

We know he is a Fallen Angel and God has given him the title of the destroyer. Which is what Abaddon and Apollyon mean ie:"Destroyer"

So the Question is this. Is the Beast just some no name lackey in the pit or is he The King of the Pit?

The beast is not Satan, but Satan's creation. Ascending or descending for that matter is a rip off of Christ ascending and descending from heaven. Satan is the ruler of the pit, and that is also where the fallen angels ascend from. The abyss opens up and provides a means for that which is under the earth to reach the surface of the earth. Under the earth is a place recognized in Scripture.

Timtofly · Sep 21, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hi David

A very good point Scripture does not state categorically that the King of the Pit is in the pit.

Having said that we do know that Satan is the only Fallen Angel on the loose. Peter says he is not bound.

However Jude tells us the other Fallen Angels are bound.

He Quotes Enoch here. Now I want everybody to understand Enoch is not considered Cannon because by the 4th century when the cannon books were etched in stone as it were They could not find a complete copy that was unaltered. The book had been drastically altered by various sects of Gnostics and these altered copies were used by Gnostic Bishops to Show Jesus as an Angel a created being and not the same substance as God. ie not God. Much the way SDA say Jesus is the Arch Angel Michael. So the book was banned at the Council of Nicaea the penalty for possession was death.

Now having said that Jude in his epistle quotes from the Book of Enoch So the only verses of Enoch I am quoting here are the same ones Jude Quotes. I am doing this because clearly Jude had a copy of Enoch and read it he clearly believed it was the inspired word of God. We also know Enoch was found with the dead sea scrolls, just a few fragments though.

So here is Jude

1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Which is Enoch 1:9

9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all,

Jude also quotes Enoch here and says

[6] And the angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper dwelling have been kept by him in eternal chains in the nether gloom until the judgment of the great day;

Which is a Quote from Enoch

12:4 called me -Enoch the scribe- and said to me: 'Enoch, thou scribe of righteousness, go declare to the Watchers of the heaven who have left the high heaven, the holy eternal place, and have defiled themselves with women, and have done as the children of earth do, and have taken unto themselves wives:

Which Matches with Gen 6:

[1]When men began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them,[2] the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were fair; and they took to wife such of them as they chose.

Above Jude tells us the other Angels are locked in the Pit with great chains when they will be let out of the pit and then thrown in the lake of fire. Which is exactly what happens to the Beast.

Which is yet another quote of Enoch

Enoch 10:4......'Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening 5 in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may 6,7 not see light. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire.

and again here

Enoch 54: 5 And I asked the angel of peace who went with me, saying: ' For whom are these chains being prepared ? ' And he said unto me: ' These are being prepared for the hosts of Azazel, so that they may take them and cast them into the abyss of complete condemnation, and they shall cover their jaws with rough stones as the Lord of Spirits commanded. 6 And Michael, and Gabriel, and Raphael, and Phanuel shall take hold of them on that great day, and cast them on that day into the burning furnace, that the Lord of Spirits may take vengeance on them for their unrighteousness in becoming subject to Satan and leading astray those who dwell on the earth.'

It is very clear who these Angels were and where they were to Jude.

Enoch also says to put all sin on Azazel

9 through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.'

Which is why the Hebrews did this

Lev:16:[7] Then he shall take the two goats, and set them before the LORD at the door of the tent of meeting; [8] and Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for Aza'zel. [9] And Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the LORD, and offer it as a sin offering; [10] but the goat on which the lot fell for Aza'zel shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Aza'zel.

The KJV translates it as scapegoat which where we get the expression from.

To me it is very clear even from what Jude says and what Revelation says that The Pit is full of Fallen Angels, Except for Satan who roams the Earth, and the demons cast out of people by Jesus and the Apostles and Saints. Which Enoch says are the disembodied spirits of the dead Nephilim or Giants.

So I think while it does not directly say that The King of the Pit is in the Pit I believe it is the Leader of the Fallen Angels which Jude Tells us are locked in the pit till the day of Judgement when they will be set free and then thrown in the lake of fire. Which is the exact same fate of the Beast in the pit.

Are you interpreting Enoch according to God's Word, or God's Word according to Enoch?

Was the letter of Enoch taken on board the ark, or just imagination of a later author claiming to be writing for Enoch?

As a scribe, many trained scribes could put the thought of that day into written form. Where in God's Word was Enoch called a scribe? It is plausible that both Jude and Enoch were quoting the same source, not that Jude was quoting Enoch.

DavidPT · Sep 21, 2021

Timtofly said:
Was the letter of Enoch taken on board the ark

Interesting point. Can't say I ever thought of that one. Yet, we do have this account, though.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Where did he prophesy of these, though? Not in the OT since there seems to be no such prophecy recorded by him though there is the prophecy recorded in Zechariah 14:5, which could mean Zechariah was simply repeating a prophecy Enoch had made earlier. Which then leads us back to where we started. Where then was Zechariah initially getting this insight from if it's nothing recorded in the OT anywhere? Could he have gotten it from the book of Enoch perhaps?

Timtofly · Sep 21, 2021

DavidPT said:
Interesting point. Can't say I ever thought of that one. Yet, we do have this account, though.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Where did he prophesy of these, though? Not in the OT since there seems to be no such prophecy recorded by him though there is the prophecy recorded in Zechariah 14:5, which could mean Zechariah was simply repeating a prophecy Enoch had made earlier. Which then leads us back to where we started. Where then was Zechariah initially getting this insight from if it's nothing recorded in the OT anywhere? Could he have gotten it from the book of Enoch perhaps?

We know the Israelites had an oral tradition. Obviously we do not know all of that oral tradition nor where it obtained all of what was passed down from generation to generation before the prophets came along. The scribe claiming to be writing as Enoch had a source that existed outside of the writings of Moses.

Douggg · Sep 22, 2021

Timtofly said:
We know the Israelites had an oral tradition. Obviously we do not know all of that oral tradition nor where it obtained all of what was passed down from generation to generation before the prophets came along. The scribe claiming to be writing as Enoch had a source that existed outside of the writings of Moses.

The oral law as the Jews call it was put down in writing in the 2nd century. From wikipedia....Oral Torah - Wikipedia

"According to Jewish tradition, the Oral Torah was passed down orally in an unbroken chain from generation to generation until its contents were finally committed to writing following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, when Jewish civilization was faced with an existential threat, by virtue of the dispersion of the Jewish people.[1]

The major repositories of the Oral Torah are the Mishnah, compiled between 200–220 CE by Rabbi Yehudah haNasi,

Timtofly · Sep 22, 2021

Douggg said:
The oral law as the Jews call it was put down in writing in the 2nd century. From wikipedia....Oral Torah - Wikipedia

"According to Jewish tradition, the Oral Torah was passed down orally in an unbroken chain from generation to generation until its contents were finally committed to writing following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, when Jewish civilization was faced with an existential threat, by virtue of the dispersion of the Jewish people.[1]

The major repositories of the Oral Torah are the Mishnah, compiled between 200–220 CE by Rabbi Yehudah haNasi,

If it had been written in 70BC, would it be the same as was written in 70AD? I do not think that what was written can be divorced from the effects of the new church. What was written could not be used to give one positive backing to the fact Jesus was the Messiah.

My point is that source prior to the first coming, that could not remain after, to give any credence to the NT church, within the teachings of Judaism. Christianity is not a sect of Judaism. Christianity started with Christ, not a change in religious thought.

Douggg · Sep 22, 2021

Timtofly said:
If it had been written in 70BC, would it be the same as was written in 70AD? I do not think that what was written can be divorced from the effects of the new church. What was written could not be used to give one positive backing to the fact Jesus was the Messiah.

I think the Jews Talmud is divided up into parts. One of those being the mishnah - the oral law. I am not supporting their view of there being an oral law. I just passing along information.

My point is that source prior to the first coming, that could not remain after, to give any credence to the NT church, within the teachings of Judaism. Christianity is not a sect of Judaism. Christianity started with Christ, not a change in religious thought.

Christianity is not a sect of Judaism, agreed.

Do know what I heard a Jewish countermissionary say at their site, repeatedly? She said that Christianity is not Judaism lite.

So from both sides - Judiasm and Christianity are not a form of one another.

However, we have to admit that Christianity rests on what is in the Tanach (old testament), whereas the reverse is not true of Judaism resting on the New Testament.

The main thing for Christians - is that Jesus is coming and His reward is with Him.

Just The Facts · Sep 23, 2021

Hi Dave

DavidPT said:
Some of this I tend to be on the same page with you though we probably should ignore what the book of Enoch says since it may not be a reliable source. I don't know what to make of the book of Enoch. Apparently some early church fathers used the book of Enoch in order to conclude some of what they did. Does that mean they viewed the book of Enoch as a reliable source?; Maybe, yet that alone doesn't prove it is just because some early church fathers consulted this book. All I know is, it is debatable as what to make of the book of Enoch, thus why I indicated it may not be a reliable source.

I understand exactly what you mean but it was not just Church Fathers or the Saints. The Book of Enoch is either directly quoted or referenced over 30 Times in the New Testament. Jesus even references the Book of Enoch although he does not directly quote it he makes statements that are not found in the Canon OT but are in the Book of Enoch. Matt 22:30 No Marriage after resurrection this is directly from the book of Enoch and is not found in the Canon OT.

Now having said that the problem with Enoch is that we do not have a copy we can say This Is What Jesus and The Apostles and Saints Had. That is why I only Quoted passages the Jude himself quoted because I am confident that Jude had the original book that his Brother Jesus had. The rest of the Book we should take with a grain of salt. I will say that ironically the parts that were found with the dead Sea Scrolls and are dated to as old as 250BC are of the Angels taking Human Wives and Teaching Mankind the hidden knowledge and war. The other thing we can say is the Book that was brought back from Ethiopia in the 1700's matches exactly the fragments found with the dead sea scrolls. The other thing we can say is how similar in tone and statement Enoch and Revelation are. But that is all we can say.

DavidPT said:
The only thing is, the releasing of the locusts in Revelation 9 don't seem to match anything recorded Revelation 16:14. These locusts recorded in Revelation 9 are not set free in order to work miracles. They are set free in order to torment the lost.

You are forgetting there are Angels and demons in the pit. The demons are evil Spirits according to Jesus the Fallen Angels are not. The Demons can not take Human form the Angels can.

Just The Facts · Sep 23, 2021

Hi Doug

Douggg said:
I am not just "assuming" the head means a man, but because the seven heads on the beast are kings in the text of Revelation 17:10.

Yes but you are assuming the Beast in Rv: 13 and 17 are the same Beast. They are clearly not the same at all. There are very important differences. It is highly unlikely that John just got a little further in to writing it down and forgot what he described in Rv: 13. The same with Daniel fourth Beast while it is similar to this Beast there are key differences. The differences are telling us this, while similar they are not the same. I believe these three Beasts represent the changing nature of the Fourth Kingdom that was to swallow the whole world. Most agree Rome was Daniels forth beast. Yet here we are some 2,000 years later was God wrong did Rome not swallow the world and live till The Day of The Lord.

Well we all know God is never wrong so where is Rome Today where was Rome 1,000 years ago Rome must have been here the WHOLE TIME in God's eyes.

So what we need to do is look around for a culture that say Uses Roman Law as the underlying basis of it government, Builds great Monuments to its Leaders, Has Impressive Government Buildings Made of Marble, Granite and Stone. Builds Giant Coliseums for entertaining the masses. They may even still use the same Calendar even have days and months named after leaders of Rome and the Gods of Rome. Has a Military that is massive and strong. Is not made of just one territory / country but has swallowed up many into this culture.

Hmmmm who could it be it is such a mystery?

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