The Woman and the chapter Rev 12

Just The Facts · Sep 19, 2021

Hi All

I know another long one but I promise it is worth the read.

Who is the Woman in Rev 12:

Now some say it is Israel, some say it is Mary. Who does Scripture say this woman really is. We need to look at what is said about her.

1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

She is clothed in the Sun and stands on the Moon and has a crown of 12 stars.

2: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

She is about to give Birth

5: And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

She bears a Man Child who will rule the world and who is caught up to God’s Throne.

I think everyone agrees that the Man-child is Jesus. So it is easy to see why so many say the woman is Mary. Others say no Israel brought forth Jesus not Mary.

First we need to see who scripture says brought forth Jesus so that we trust the Word of God not the doctrines of men.

Matt:1:20: But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

This verse says it is the Holy Spirit that brings forth Jesus. What else does God’s Word tell us.

Lk:1:35: And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Once Again it is the Holy Spirit that brings forth Jesus.

So we See that Scripture tells us it is the Holy Spirit that brings forth Jesus not Mary and not the Nation of Judea.

So does this mean the Holy Spirit is a WOMAN??????????? That is a very Gnostic view of the Holy Spirit. I do not believe that is what is being said. We need to remember this is all symbolic we need to look at who Scripture says a woman in prophetic scripture is.

Isa 23:12: And he said, Thou shalt no more rejoice, O thou oppressed virgin, daughter of Zidon: arise, pass over to Chittim; there also shalt thou have no rest. 13: Behold the land of the Chaldeans; this people was not, till the Assyrian founded it for them that dwell in the wilderness: they set up the towers thereof, they raised up the palaces thereof; and he brought it to ruin. 14: Howl, ye ships of Tarshish: for your strength is laid waste 15: And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. 16: Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. 17: And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.

Above we see the religion of Tyre called a virgin of the Kingdom.

Jer: 46:11: Go up into Gilead, and take balm, O virgin, the daughter of Egypt: in vain shalt thou use many medicines; for thou shalt not be cured.

Once again the religion of Egypt is referred to as a Virgin a woman.

Isa:47:1: Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate. 2: Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers. 3: Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man. 4: As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel. 5: Sit thou silent, and get thee into darkness, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called, The lady of kingdoms.

Again we see the religion of Babylon referred to as a virgin a woman. We know it is the Spirituality of Babylon it is talking about the city is only the seat of the false religious belief.

12: Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth;

The word sorceries really means prophecy that was the whole purpose of the sorceries to obtain prophecy.

13: Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators,

Jer:18:13: Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing.

Jer:31:4: Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.

Here we see the faith of Judea called the Virgin of Israel.

So what evil thing did the Virgin of Judah do?????

Jer:7:30: For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.

So here we see that the evil did by the virgin is false worship. She played the harlot

It is clear that in prophetic scripture a Woman is used to describe a religion, in modern terms a Church. It is important to understand that in ancient times religions were all based around a city and a temple. So the Virgin of Babylon is the religion of Babylon the virgin of Israel is the religion of Israel all based in a city where people would come to worship.

So let's look at the symbolism of this woman

1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

So let's go through these symbols one by one what is meant by clothed with the sun.

Ps:84:11: For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

So does this mean the woman / church is wearing God/sun. Is there another verse to back this up is there other verses that tell us to wear God?

Eph:6:11: Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Eph:6:13: Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

It is clear that in Eph: Paul is directly referencing Ps:84. So this woman / church (IE: religious belief) is wearing God as Armour and a shield.

What about the moon this woman is standing on. What does this mean What is this woman standing on?

Ps: 82:36: His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37: It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven.

Here we see God says the promise will be forever established as the Moon.

Put this all together and what do you get?

You get a Religion/Church clothed in the Armour of God and Standing on the Promise of Salvation through the seed.

The Woman is the True Church / Faith /Religion of God That is who brought forth the male Child. As she promised through the power of the Holy Spirit to the prophets.

All Power, Glory and Honour to the Father

Brian Mcnamee · Sep 19, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hi All

I know another long one but I promise it is worth the read.

Who is the Woman in Rev 12:

Now some say it is Israel, some say it is Mary. Who does Scripture say this woman really is. We need to look at what is said about her.

1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

She is clothed in the Sun and stands on the Moon and has a crown of 12 stars.

2: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

She is about to give Birth

5: And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

She bears a Man Child who will rule the world and who is caught up to God’s Throne.

I think everyone agrees that the Man-child is Jesus. So it is easy to see why so many say the woman is Mary. Others say no Israel brought forth Jesus not Mary.

First we need to see who scripture says brought forth Jesus so that we trust the Word of God not the doctrines of men.

Matt:1:20: But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

This verse says it is the Holy Spirit that brings forth Jesus. What else does God’s Word tell us.

Lk:1:35: And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Once Again it is the Holy Spirit that brings forth Jesus.

So we See that Scripture tells us it is the Holy Spirit that brings forth Jesus not Mary and not the Nation of Judea.

So does this mean the Holy Spirit is a WOMAN??????????? That is a very Gnostic view of the Holy Spirit. I do not believe that is what is being said. We need to remember this is all symbolic we need to look at who Scripture says a woman in prophetic scripture is.

Isa 23:12: And he said, Thou shalt no more rejoice, O thou oppressed virgin, daughter of Zidon: arise, pass over to Chittim; there also shalt thou have no rest. 13: Behold the land of the Chaldeans; this people was not, till the Assyrian founded it for them that dwell in the wilderness: they set up the towers thereof, they raised up the palaces thereof; and he brought it to ruin. 14: Howl, ye ships of Tarshish: for your strength is laid waste 15: And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. 16: Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. 17: And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.

Above we see the religion of Tyre called a virgin of the Kingdom.

Jer: 46:11: Go up into Gilead, and take balm, O virgin, the daughter of Egypt: in vain shalt thou use many medicines; for thou shalt not be cured.

Once again the religion of Egypt is referred to as a Virgin a woman.

Isa:47:1: Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate. 2: Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers. 3: Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man. 4: As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel. 5: Sit thou silent, and get thee into darkness, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called, The lady of kingdoms.

Again we see the religion of Babylon referred to as a virgin a woman. We know it is the Spirituality of Babylon it is talking about the city is only the seat of the false religious belief.

12: Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth;

The word sorceries really means prophecy that was the whole purpose of the sorceries to obtain prophecy.

13: Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators,

Jer:18:13: Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing.

Jer:31:4: Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.

Here we see the faith of Judea called the Virgin of Israel.

So what evil thing did the Virgin of Judah do?????

Jer:7:30: For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.

So here we see that the evil did by the virgin is false worship. She played the harlot

It is clear that in prophetic scripture a Woman is used to describe a religion, in modern terms a Church. It is important to understand that in ancient times religions were all based around a city and a temple. So the Virgin of Babylon is the religion of Babylon the virgin of Israel is the religion of Israel all based in a city where people would come to worship.

So let's look at the symbolism of this woman

1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

So let's go through these symbols one by one what is meant by clothed with the sun.

Ps:84:11: For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

So does this mean the woman / church is wearing God/sun. Is there another verse to back this up is there other verses that tell us to wear God?

Eph:6:11: Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Eph:6:13: Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

It is clear that in Eph: Paul is directly referencing Ps:84. So this woman / church (IE: religious belief) is wearing God as Armour and a shield.

What about the moon this woman is standing on. What does this mean What is this woman standing on?

Ps: 82:36: His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37: It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven.

Here we see God says the promise will be forever established as the Moon.

Put this all together and what do you get?

You get a Religion/Church clothed in the Armour of God and Standing on the Promise of Salvation through the seed.

The Woman is the True Church / Faith /Religion of God That is who brought forth the male Child. As she promised through the power of the Holy Spirit to the prophets.

All Power, Glory and Honour to the Father

Hi it is obvious you did a word study on the word virgin and many of your conclusions are pretty random. You left out the first mention of the sun moon and 11 stars as Josephs dream. Jacob understood this vision referred to Him Rachael and Josephs brothers. This is Israel and 11 stars is expected as Joseph would not be bowing down to himself. Now the prophecy of the seed of the woman is followed by genealogy and this one will take the throne of David which is still future. I suggest it is the nation of Israel of whom the virgin birth promise came through and the genealogy track to Jesus.

the key verse that defines the woman as Israel is here.

Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Now think back to the signs Jesus warned in the Olivet discourse. When you see the abomination of desolation as Daniel mentions you are to flea immediately to the mountains with out looking back. Now the woman in Rev 12 is to flee into the wilderness for 1260 days. In rev 13 the beat gains power over every tribe tongue kindred and nation and is persecuting the for 1260 days. 42 months. This is the same length of time as Dan 7 shows the pompous one persecuting before the kingdom comes. He is persecuting the woman who is Israel. 2 thes 2 shows the man of sin is revealed in the temple showing himself as god and many believe him. This is the beast of Rev 13, the pompous one of Dan 12 and he is destroyed by the 2nd coming.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 19, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hi All

I know another long one but I promise it is worth the read.

Who is the Woman in Rev 12:

Now some say it is Israel, some say it is Mary. Who does Scripture say this woman really is. We need to look at what is said about her.

1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

She is clothed in the Sun and stands on the Moon and has a crown of 12 stars.

2: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

She is about to give Birth

5: And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

She bears a Man Child who will rule the world and who is caught up to God’s Throne.

I think everyone agrees that the Man-child is Jesus. So it is easy to see why so many say the woman is Mary. Others say no Israel brought forth Jesus not Mary.

First we need to see who scripture says brought forth Jesus so that we trust the Word of God not the doctrines of men.

Matt:1:20: But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

This verse says it is the Holy Spirit that brings forth Jesus. What else does God’s Word tell us.

Lk:1:35: And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Once Again it is the Holy Spirit that brings forth Jesus.

So we See that Scripture tells us it is the Holy Spirit that brings forth Jesus not Mary and not the Nation of Judea.

So does this mean the Holy Spirit is a WOMAN??????????? That is a very Gnostic view of the Holy Spirit. I do not believe that is what is being said. We need to remember this is all symbolic we need to look at who Scripture says a woman in prophetic scripture is.

Isa 23:12: And he said, Thou shalt no more rejoice, O thou oppressed virgin, daughter of Zidon: arise, pass over to Chittim; there also shalt thou have no rest. 13: Behold the land of the Chaldeans; this people was not, till the Assyrian founded it for them that dwell in the wilderness: they set up the towers thereof, they raised up the palaces thereof; and he brought it to ruin. 14: Howl, ye ships of Tarshish: for your strength is laid waste 15: And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. 16: Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. 17: And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.

Above we see the religion of Tyre called a virgin of the Kingdom.

Jer: 46:11: Go up into Gilead, and take balm, O virgin, the daughter of Egypt: in vain shalt thou use many medicines; for thou shalt not be cured.

Once again the religion of Egypt is referred to as a Virgin a woman.

Isa:47:1: Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate. 2: Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers. 3: Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man. 4: As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel. 5: Sit thou silent, and get thee into darkness, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called, The lady of kingdoms.

Again we see the religion of Babylon referred to as a virgin a woman. We know it is the Spirituality of Babylon it is talking about the city is only the seat of the false religious belief.

12: Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth;

The word sorceries really means prophecy that was the whole purpose of the sorceries to obtain prophecy.

13: Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators,

Jer:18:13: Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing.

Jer:31:4: Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.

Here we see the faith of Judea called the Virgin of Israel.

So what evil thing did the Virgin of Judah do?????

Jer:7:30: For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.

So here we see that the evil did by the virgin is false worship. She played the harlot

It is clear that in prophetic scripture a Woman is used to describe a religion, in modern terms a Church. It is important to understand that in ancient times religions were all based around a city and a temple. So the Virgin of Babylon is the religion of Babylon the virgin of Israel is the religion of Israel all based in a city where people would come to worship.

So let's look at the symbolism of this woman

1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

So let's go through these symbols one by one what is meant by clothed with the sun.

Ps:84:11: For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

So does this mean the woman / church is wearing God/sun. Is there another verse to back this up is there other verses that tell us to wear God?

Eph:6:11: Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Eph:6:13: Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

It is clear that in Eph: Paul is directly referencing Ps:84. So this woman / church (IE: religious belief) is wearing God as Armour and a shield.

What about the moon this woman is standing on. What does this mean What is this woman standing on?

Ps: 82:36: His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37: It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven.

Here we see God says the promise will be forever established as the Moon.

Put this all together and what do you get?

You get a Religion/Church clothed in the Armour of God and Standing on the Promise of Salvation through the seed.

The Woman is the True Church / Faith /Religion of God That is who brought forth the male Child. As she promised through the power of the Holy Spirit to the prophets.

All Power, Glory and Honour to the Father

Some helpful scriptures...

SYMBOLS DEFINED IN GOD'S WORD.

*WOMAN PURE = God's people faithful (Jeremiah 6:2; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:23-27)

*WOMAN harlot = God's people unfaithful to God fornicator, adulteress, unfaithful or false religion (Isaiah 1:21-27; Jeremiah 3:1-3; 6-9; Ezekiel 16:15-58; 23:2-21; Hosea 2:5; 3:1; Revelations 14:4)

*MOTHER OF HARLOTS = Gives birth to unfaithful or false religion offspring and children just like the Mother

*BEAST = Kingdom; Nations or political power (Daniel 7:17; 23; Proverbs 28:15)

*HORN OF A BEAST= A king or ruler that arise out of the Kingdom; Nations or political power (Daniel 7:24; 8:5; 21-22; Zechariah 1:18-19; Revelations 17:12)

*SCARLET COLOR = sin (Isaiah 1:18)

*HAND = To act out or to do action (Ecclesiastes 9:10; Acts 4:28 etc)

*FOREHAND = To believe or think (Ezekiel 3:8-9; Jeremiah 3:3 see also word meanings)

*MARK/SEAL/SIGN = is BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING GOD'S WORD or NOT BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's WORD (Revelation 14:7-12; 7:4-10' Deuteronomy 6:8; Ezekiel 20:11-12; Ezekiel 9:1-11)

....................

The above is taken from another study on the "Mark of the Beast"

Take Care

Just The Facts · Sep 19, 2021

Hi Love

LoveGodsWord said:
SYMBOLS DEFINED IN GOD'S WORD.

I agree 100% I was just going to do a study on the mark which is Sin God's make is keeping the commandments which you bind to your hand and forehead. The Devils mark is Breaking Them which is also head and hand. However in the first rain those under the alter there was also a visible mark that stopped you buying and selling and there will be in the great tribulation

Douggg · Sep 19, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Some helpful scriptures...

SYMBOLS DEFINED IN GOD'S WORD.

*WOMAN PURE = God's people faithful (Jeremiah 6:2; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:23-27)

*WOMAN harlot = God's people unfaithful to God fornicator, adulteress, unfaithful or false religion (Isaiah 1:21-27; Jeremiah 3:1-3; 6-9; Ezekiel 16:15-58; 23:2-21; Hosea 2:5; 3:1; Revelations 14:4)

*MOTHER OF HARLOTS = Gives birth to unfaithful or false religion offspring and children just like the Mother

*BEAST = Kingdom; Nations or political power (Daniel 7:17; 23; Proverbs 28:15)

*HORN OF A BEAST= A king or ruler that arise out of the Kingdom; Nations or political power (Daniel 7:24; 8:5; 21-22; Zechariah 1:18-19; Revelations 17:12)

*SCARLET COLOR = sin (Isaiah 1:18)

*HAND = To act out or to do action (Ecclesiastes 9:10; Acts 4:28 etc)

*FOREHAND = To believe or think (Ezekiel 3:8-9; Jeremiah 3:3 see also word meanings)

*MARK/SEAL/SIGN = is BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING GOD'S WORD or NOT BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's WORD (Revelation 14:7-12; 7:4-10' Deuteronomy 6:8; Ezekiel 20:11-12; Ezekiel 9:1-11)

....................

The above is taken from another study on the "Mark of the Beast"

Take Care

Add "head" as "king". Revelation 17:10.

Just The Facts · Sep 19, 2021

Hello

Brian Mcnamee said:
Hi it is obvious you did a word study on the word virgin and many of your conclusions are pretty random.

I did not do a word study at all. I noticed over the last 45 years of reading scripture that God refers to a people's religion as a woman /virgin. and every verse I gave showed it was referring to a religious belief.

Israel did not bring forth Jesus the Holy Spirit did Scripture is clear. This woman is the true church of God ie the kingdom. It is not new it has always been around and men have always tried to take it by force.

Sorry can not agree with anything you said as it is not backed by Scripture at all.

Brian Mcnamee · Sep 19, 2021

wait a minute I listed many scriptures that shows the 1st mention of the sun moon and the stars back in Genesis and established the timeline of 42 months from the abomination of desolation to the 2nd coming and established that timeline from other sources. Your interpretation is a private interpretation. Who is fleeing for forty months to the mountain? Not the church the warning is to those who see the abomination of desolation which would be Jews. In 2 Thes the man of sin is revealed in the temple and destroyed by the 2nd coming of the LORD. This is the same fate of the beast who is also destroyed by the 2nd coming after exactly 1260 days which is how long the woman has to hide in Rev 12. these are scriptures not opinion your ideas are certainly ideas that do not explain these specific details with any clarity.

Just The Facts · Sep 19, 2021

Hello

Brian Mcnamee said:
Not the church the warning is to those who see the abomination of desolation which would be Jews.

That's funny because Jesus is talking to the first Christians the very foundation of his church The Apostles he is not telling the Jews to flee he is telling his apostles his church to flee.

You are clearly a Dispensationalist and it has colored you view. Sorry I do not agree with your understanding

Brian Mcnamee said:
Your interpretation is a private interpretation.

I did not say this means this because of this.........I showed were Scripture Identifies the symbols. There is nothing private about it. Where does it say a Woman in prophecy represents the Jewish Nation.

Brian Mcnamee · Sep 20, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hello

That's funny because Jesus is talking to the first Christians the very foundation of his church The Apostles he is not telling the Jews to flee he is telling his apostles his church to flee.

You are clearly a Dispensationalist and it has colored you view. Sorry I do not agree with your understanding

I did not say this means this because of this.........I showed were Scripture Identifies the symbols. There is nothing private about it. Where does it say a Woman in prophecy represents the Jewish Nation.

Hi I am a literalist you know one who believes what the clear meaning of the text says and yes with this method of study you would be a dispensational in your thinking because that is how it reads literally. Let me ask you this is Zech 14 a literal passage? Will the Mt of Olives split in two and form a new valley and river when the LORD come and is king over all the earth? explain your view of the that passage if it is not literal.

Just The Facts · Sep 20, 2021

Hello

Brian Mcnamee said:
Hi I am a literalist you know one who believes what the clear meaning of the text says and yes with this method of study you would be a dispensational in your thinking because that is how it reads literally. Let me ask you this is Zech 14 a literal passage? Will the Mt of Olives split in two and form a new valley and river when the LORD come and is king over all the earth? explain your view of the that passage if it is not literal.

Well that would be nice if it were true however Dispensationalist do not take all scripture literal. They pick and choose what they take literal.

Ez: 37[12] Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people; and I will bring you home into the land of Israel. [13] And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people. [14] And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land; then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken, and I have done it, says the LORD."

Here is the first resurrection in Ezekiel 37 We know it is the the first resurrection because it literally says God will raise them from their graves. Further more it says God places them in the land not they migrate to the land.

So as a Dispensationalist this must obviously be how you see these verses because this is literally what they say.

RandyPNW · Sep 20, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hi All

I know another long one but I promise it is worth the read.

Who is the Woman in Rev 12:

My own view of this. The Woman is using Eve as a kind of metaphor for the Church. Israel is not named because in John's time Israel had already expanded to include many nations. The Church was universal, even though the Church was only Israel when Christ, the male child, was born.

The sun and the moon seems to reflect back to Joseph as a type of Christ. His family was going to have to submit to Joseph in Egypt in order to survive.

Here, we have the Church already victorious through Christ, as though already ascended to his rule over Egypt, representing the world. Having given birth to Christ who has overcome Satan, the Church is victorious.

And this Church has fulfilled the call of Israel, with its 12 tribes and 12 apostles, proclaiming Salvation through Christ for all. The 12 tribes represent Salvation for the entire nation of Israel. And the 12 apostles represent Salvation for many nations on earth. In the Millennium I believe there will be many Christian nations on earth, including the nation of Israel.

Douggg · Sep 20, 2021

Just The Facts said:
So as a Dispensationalist this must obviously be how you see these verses because this is literally what they say.

There is no reason to argue over whether dispensationalists discern metaphor and symbolism. They do.

The issue is over conclusions reached.

Douggg · Sep 20, 2021

The woman in Revelation 12 is not the church, but Israel.

The church and its future is in Revelation 2-3.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 20, 2021

Douggg said:
The woman in Revelation 12 is not the church, but Israel.

The church and its future is in Revelation 2-3.

You must not have read this:

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

The only offspring of the woman previously mentioned before this verse was the male child which we all agree is Jesus. This indicates that the rest of her offspring besides Jesus Himself are "those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.". That is a description of Christians.

Does the nation of Israel only have offspring (other than Jesus Himself) that are Christians like the figurative woman of Revelation 12 does? Of course not. So, the woman cannot be the nation of Israel. It has to be the church, which is the true spiritual Israel of God, because the only offspring of the church/true Israel of God are Christians.

Brian Mcnamee · Sep 20, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hello

Well that would be nice if it were true however Dispensationalist do not take all scripture literal. They pick and choose what they take literal.

Ez: 37[12] Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people; and I will bring you home into the land of Israel. [13] And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people. [14] And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land; then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken, and I have done it, says the LORD."

Here is the first resurrection in Ezekiel 37 We know it is the the first resurrection because it literally says God will raise them from their graves. Further more it says God places them in the land not they migrate to the land.

So as a Dispensationalist this must obviously be how you see these verses because this is literally what they say.

Hi you did not have the courtesy to answer my question on Zech 14. As for your charge against dispensational choosing what is literal I would agree with you that many times the context of the scripture is clearly a metaphor or a symbol and Ezekiel 37 the portion you quoted is a vision and this vision is sandwiched between chapter 36 and the rest of 37 which help to interpret the vision.

The rest of the passage reads
8 “And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— 19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.” ’ 20 And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.
21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
24 “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” ’ ”

if you read this it is clearly supportive of futurism as God will make a covenant of peace with both houses of Israel and they shall have one king and God will an everlasting covenant with them. They will be His people and David will be raised up. This promise is to those gathered back to the mountains of Israel. this before and after picture is repeated and supports what Jesus mission in Luke 1 as foretold.

Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our lives.

Now in every depiction of the 2nd coming Israel is being delivered and life continues on earth after the LORD has come with his saints. Eze 36 37 Zech 14 are just a few of few of the many things Jesus accomplishes at the 2nd coming.

DavidPT · Sep 20, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
You must not have read this:

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

The only offspring of the woman previously mentioned before this verse was the male child which we all agree is Jesus. This indicates that the rest of her offspring besides Jesus Himself are "those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.". That is a description of Christians.

Does the nation of Israel only have offspring (other than Jesus Himself) that are Christians like the figurative woman of Revelation 12 does? Of course not. So, the woman cannot be the nation of Israel. It has to be the church, which is the true spiritual Israel of God, because the only offspring of the church/true Israel of God are Christians.

Here is the problem I see with some of this thinking. The reason I say some rather than all is because I agree with some of this thinking. I fully agree that the remnant in verse 17 are meaning Christians.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Let's insert what you take each to mean in this passage and see whether the passage makes sense or not.

And to the church were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the church, that he might cause the church to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the church, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the church, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, the church.

Explain how it makes good sense that during the 1260 days, the church is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent, while at the same time, meaning during these same 1260 days, her remnant, the church, are being made war with by the dragon? That sounds like a contradiction if we make both the woman and her remnant meaning the exact same thing. But if we make the woman to mean someone other than who the remnant are meaning, it then at least makes sense of the text as to how the woman can be being nourished while at the same time her remnant are being made war against by the same entity, the dragon in this case.

Brian Mcnamee · Sep 20, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
You must not have read this:

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

The only offspring of the woman previously mentioned before this verse was the male child which we all agree is Jesus. This indicates that the rest of her offspring besides Jesus Himself are "those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.". That is a description of Christians.

Does the nation of Israel only have offspring (other than Jesus Himself) that are Christians like the figurative woman of Revelation 12 does? Of course not. So, the woman cannot be the nation of Israel. It has to be the church, which is the true spiritual Israel of God, because the only offspring of the church/true Israel of God are Christians.

HI that is a great observation but when the blindness come off if Israel? If the man of sin in 2 Thes is the antichrist Jesus warned those in Judea to flea to the mountains. Regarding 70 AD Jesus said to his disciples when you see Jerusalem being surrounded know that its desolation is near and this is when the church fled. Now the man of sin blaspheme God and also exalts himself as God and causes all to worship the dragon. The Jews who thought this man was savior get a quick rude sudden awakening and this is when they flee. It would seem they have an aha moment at this point. The two witnesses will have been there as well and if you look at Isaiah 61 the day of vengeance of our God which is Jesus you will see a remakrable Zion centric deliverance.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 20, 2021

DavidPT said:
Here is the problem I see with some of this thinking. The reason I say some rather than all is because I agree with some of this thinking. I fully agree that the remnant in verse 17 are meaning Christians.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Let's insert what you take each to mean in this passage and see whether the passage makes sense or not.

And to the church were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the church, that he might cause the church to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the church, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the church, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, the church.

Explain how it makes good sense that during the 1260 days, the church is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent, while at the same time, meaning during these same 1260 days, her remnant, the church, are being made war with by the dragon? That sounds like a contradiction if we make both the woman and her remnant meaning the exact same thing. But if we make the woman to mean someone other than who the remnant are meaning, it then at least makes sense of the text as to how the woman can be being nourished while at the same time her remnant are being made war against by the same entity, the dragon in this case.

David, please show me where I said the woman and her offspring are the same. I didn't do that. I said the offspring of the woman are Jesus Himself and Christians. The church is made up of Christians and is founded upon the apostles and prophets with Jesus being the chief cornerstone (Ephesians 2:19-22). Jesus is the head of the church (Ephesians 1:22).

Jesus said that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church (Matt 16:18), so even if many Christians are martyred the church itself cannot be destroyed. The woman/church itself is kept secure and continues on even if she loses many of her members.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 20, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
HI that is a great observation but when the blindness come off if Israel?

What do you mean?

If the man of sin in 2 Thes is the antichrist Jesus warned those in Judea to flea to the mountains.

I don't believe 2 Thess 2 is speaking of the same thing as Matthew 24:15-22/Mark 13:14-20/Luke 21:20-24.

Regarding 70 AD Jesus said to his disciples when you see Jerusalem being surrounded know that its desolation is near and this is when the church fled.

Right. Those who heeded Jesus's warning would have fled into the mountains at that time just like He said to do. He didn't want them caught up in the attack by the Roman armies on Jerusalem.

Now the man of sin blaspheme God and also exalts himself as God and causes all to worship the dragon. The Jews who thought this man was savior get a quick rude sudden awakening and this is when they flee.

Who was that? Again, I don't think that is what Paul was writing about in 2 Thess 2.

It would seem they have an aha moment at this point. The two witnesses will have been there as well and if you look at Isaiah 61 the day of vengeance of our God which is Jesus you will see a remakrable Zion centric deliverance.

I'm sorry, but I don't really know what you're talking about here. What two witnesses were there?

Douggg · Sep 20, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

The only offspring of the woman previously mentioned before this verse was the male child which we all agree is Jesus. This indicates that the rest of her offspring besides Jesus Himself are "those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.". That is a description of Christians.

Yes, they are Christians. But they are Jews, the children of Israel. They become Christians in the middle of the 7 years, as Revelation 12:10 indicates.

The ones in Revelation 12:17 are the rest of her (Israel's) children. What about the other children, that the dragon cannot access because they are in the wilderness, and the earth swallowed up the flood?

Those are the Jews living in Judah who flee to the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.

The Woman and the chapter Rev 12

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