AdamjEdgar
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I'm not sure what you mean...he wrote his book from Sabbath to Sunday after access to the archives using information gained from said access..not before as the date on your attachment clearly shows.
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Assyrians on Sabbath and Sunday Worship
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Hezekiah81
Christ died for me so I died for him
If man gets to choose which day is holy which is false than I will ask you this, in your eyes what was more important the shedding of Christ's blood or his resurrection, you see you don't get to choose because you don't decide what righteous living is God does and to answer my own question I would say the shedding of Christ's blood was equally as important as his resurrection if not more.
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AdamjEdgar
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ok fair enough lets move on.
I am genuinely interested in your additional theory as to why the Sabbath changed to Sunday in early Christian church. I find this topic fascinating and theory am open to discussing any theory anyone has about it.
What i find interesting about the change in day of worship is that it happened so soon after Jesus death. That is very strange considering Jesus came to this earth and for a little over 30 years (3.5 years in ministry) faithfully demonstrated the correct way to live according to God's word, particularly he always kept the Sabbath.
I was trained as a teacher, and universally teachers educated the younger generation through theory and practical demonstration...it would be a poor teacher who does that then has his students throw it all out again immediately after leaving said teachers classroom/school. It simply doesnt make sense that the disciples were told to change the day of worship.
Having said that, Samuel Bacchiocchi clearly refutes (with references to multiple ancient sources) the idea that the disciples and/or the apostles changed the day of worship...this practice really did not get under way in the Christian Church until well into the second century. However, its still interesting it happened less than 100 years after Jesus death (we still run memorials of WW1 and 2 and little is forgotten about those events in the last century)
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Hezekiah81
Christ died for me so I died for him
[Let me help you LoveGodsWord since some just don't understand the difference of high sabbaths and feast days from the sabbath day of the Lord that God sanctified not man. Now this is for all the misunderstood that read (Colossians 2:16) and say the sabbath day of the Lord has been abolished which is a lie from satan. Now we don't have to guess or assume what God is saying here because His word always validates itself not contradict. Here is a witness that has a kinship to that verse.] (2 Chronicles 8:12-13) 12 Then Solomon offered burnt offerings unto the Lord on the altar of the Lord, which he had built before the porch, 13 Even after a certain rate every day, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts, three times in the year, even in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feasts of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles. [Wow imagine that God's word telling you what something means, but you know what happens when you don't understand something, you make stuff up. The day of the Lord which is the sabbath day God sanctified never has any commandment that says you are to make a burnt offering, God only commands you to do no work and keep it Holy. Now anyone who tries to abolish what God made holy is under a deception, also if you want more information on these high sabbaths and feast days which are ceromonial and separate from the day of the Lord read (Leviticus 23). God bless you.]
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I didn’t decide anything. God chose to rise on a Sunday, and he commissioned the Church which has commemorated his resurrection ever since.
Including the original subject of this thread, who we are forgetting, by the way, the Assyrians. The Assyrian Church of the East typically has vespers on Saturday evening and the Eucharist on Sunday morning.
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Hezekiah81
Christ died for me so I died for him
Please show me scripture where God says man usurps his authority and decides what righteous living is, let me save you some time it's not there. Man doesn't decide what righteous living is God does in truth given to us in his law and precepts which he before ordained that we should walk in them. So again I'll ask because you won't answer what was more important the shedding of Christ's blood or his resurrection? Also who gave man authority to change the day God sanctified?
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The questions you are asking are based on a false dichotomy and a false premise respectively, so I can’t answer the questions, not because I don’t know the answer, but because they are unanswerable. The entire Incarnation of God is salvific; when God died on the cross and when He rose from the grave these both enable our ascent. And I don’t see that anything has been changed with regards to the Sabbath, except for the discontinuation of certain forms of observing it.
Now the topic of this thread is supposed to be the Assyrian church and the Sabbath, so let us return to that.
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Hezekiah81
Christ died for me so I died for him
Says you, nowhere is the sabbath day of the Lord that God sanctified [not man] abolished ever in God's word. Your claim the church kept sunday holy over sabbath was handed down by roman catholicism not the apostles. Nobody observed sunday as holy or in place of the sabbath in scripture. You don't have one iota of scripture to prove your man fabricated doctrine. You teach the commandments and traditions of men and haven't you heard there is no jew or gentile for all are of one body in Christ that have faith in him. God bless you.
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A few questions:
1. Do you understand that Jesus Christ is God incarnate?
2. Are you aware that the Assyrian Church, which is the topic of this thread, was never under the control of the Roman Catholic Church?
3. Are you also aware that the churches of Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Constantinople, Cyprus, Armenia, Georgia and Ethiopia were also never under Roman Catholic control, that together with the Roman church, these churches and the Assyrian church represent the entirety of the ancient church, and the entirety of the ancient church worshipped on Sunday from the first century?
4. That in worshipping on Sunday we are not abolishing the Sabbath, which has also always been commemorated separately?
5. That I addressed the same in my previous post?
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What does any of this has to do with keeping the commandments of God that God wrote and spoke.
Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
God is our Authority not man. What it sounds like you are saying is you believe the words of people over the spoke and written Word of God.
There is no scripture where God blessed the first day, sanctified it, made it holy or told us to keep the first day holy. It's not a commandment like the 4th commandment is, Nor will it be the day we will worship our Lord and Savior on the New Earth Isaiah 66:23
If you want to obey traditions over commandments we are given free will but it's not what Jesus told us to do. Matthew 15:3-9
God bless
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AdamjEdgar
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@ The Litergist, am i right in reading that you believe the Assyrian Church had no affiliation or influence at the hands of Roman Empire leadership and even Christians in Rome? The following references appear to suggest a slightly different take on this...(Assyrian Church became known as the Church of the East)
"The Church of the East, which was part of the Great Church, shared communion with those in the Roman Empire until the Council of Ephesus condemned Nestorius in 431." (Wikipedia)
"Christianity in the ante-Nicene period was the time in Christian history up to the First Council of Nicaea. This article covers the period following the Apostolic Age of the first century, c.100 AD, to Nicaea in 325 AD.
The second and third centuries saw a sharp divorce of Christianity from its early roots. There was an explicit rejection of then-modern Judaism and Jewish culture by the end of the second century,"(Wikipedia)
The second and third centuries saw a sharp divorce of Christianity from its early roots. There was an explicit rejection of then-modern Judaism and Jewish culture by the end of the second century,"(Wikipedia)
Moving on to the change in day of worship more specifically...
I genuinely find it difficult to listen to various writers who openly state "I will let the Bible speak for itself, I place no interpretation of my own on scripture" and yet those same individuals find it ok to consider that one should follow the traditions of men when talking about the keeping of the 4th commandment. Does not anyone who worships on Sunday even raise an eyebrow at such inconsistencies?
there are numerous very well-published writings on the early Christian church...extensive evidence of very obvious reasons why the Sabbath was changed to Sunday...all of which point to a concerted effort by Satan to influence and deceive from the very earliest times after the death of Jesus and the Apostles. It is abundantly clear that once the apostles died out, the Christian church found easier ways to "fit in" with their surroundings and the expansive Roman culture of the day. To say that Rome had no influence over Alexandria in Egypt and Constantinople is a complete lie...the pagan influence of the Roman empire extended well into areas such as Turkey and Egypt even before the end of the First Century.
Rome reached its greatest territorial expanse during the reign of Trajan (AD 98–117) wikipedia
Aside from this, paganism was not unique to the Romans...i do not understand why this argument is even put forward!
There is absolutely nowhere in the Bible where God said, "keep Sunday as His day of worship. He neither sanctified Sunday or Hallowed it.
Instead what we do find all throughout the early Christian church is evidence that men changed the day of worship...
"There are a lot of people who rose and started to attack various fundamental doctrines of God’s true Church. Among these men were Justin Martyr, Ignatius, and Clement of Alexandria.
When Emperor Hadrian reigned beginning in 117 A.D., he began to persecute the Jewish people. He had prohibited any practice related to Judaism and that includes the seventh-day Sabbath.
As a result, faithful Christians were forced to keep the Sabbath in secret and gather together in catacombs and hidden places.
Slowly, but surely, Sabbath-keepers were driven into hiding while Sunday-keepers were out in the open.
During the reign of Emperor Hadrian, worshipping on the first day of the week became the norm."
(How the Sabbath Day became Sunday?)
"What can be said with confidence, though, is that the process that saw the rise of Sunday observance and the decline of Sabbath observance was a gradual one that began after the time period in which the New Testament writings were produced, that likely originated at Rome and Alexandria, and that was accelerated considerably under the patronage of Constantine the Great."
(https://research.avondale.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1105&context=theo_papers)
"There can be no doubt that Christ, His disciples, and the first-century Christians kept Saturday, the seventh-day Sabbath. Yet, today, most of the Christian professing world keeps Sunday, the first day of the week, calling it the Sabbath. Who made this change, and how did it occur?
No serious student of the Scriptures can deny that God instituted the Sabbath at creation and designated the seventh day to be kept holy.
However, when the Jews rebelled against Rome, the Romans put down their rebellion by destroying Jerusalem in A.D. 70 and again in A.D. 135. Obviously, the Roman government’s suppression of the Jews made it increasingly uncomfortable for Christians to be thought of as Jewish. At that time, Sunday was the rest day of the Roman Empire, whose religion was Mithraism, a form of sun worship. Since Sabbath observance is visible to others, some Christians in the early second century sought to distance themselves from Judaism by observing a different day, thus “blending in” to the society around them."
(Who Changed The Sabbath to Sunday? — The Church of God International)
I could post so many references to man, without Gods authority, changing the day of worship it would fill this forum...and yet Sunday worshipers blindly continue to believe instead in the traditions of men!
Jesus said to the pharasees in Matthew 15
v3 “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?"
v6 Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied correctly about you:8‘These people honor Me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from Me.9They worship Me in vain;
they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.’d”
He specifically warned us not to follow the traditions of men but to follow the commandments of God. Somewhere after the first century the early christian church lost sight of this statement, and Emporer Constantine (a pagan) ratified a tradition that was not Biblical thus began the process of fulfilment of the prophecy in Daniel 7
The prophet Daniel it is 100% foretold this as being a significant part of the prophecy about the mark of the beast, and one simply has to believe that those who refuse to keep the Sabbath who know they should keep all of the 10 commandments are instead following traditions of men. They are denying their saviour and will be lost.
Matthew 5
The reason i say this is because Jesus said in Matthew 25
Hebbrews 8:10For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord. I will put My laws in their minds and inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people.
They listen to that still small voice that is the conscience of God (the Holy Spirit) and treat their neighbours with love and kindness and compassion!
Now to put a very real perspective on Constantine...and this might be a horifying shock to some...i wonder how many people are aware that Adolph Hitler claimed to be a Christian?
True he was a delusional one, however, in his writings it appears that he genuinely believed he was doing the Lords work in persecuting the jews. For those who scoff at me stating that, I put a quote from him below.
When Emperor Hadrian reigned beginning in 117 A.D., he began to persecute the Jewish people. He had prohibited any practice related to Judaism and that includes the seventh-day Sabbath.
As a result, faithful Christians were forced to keep the Sabbath in secret and gather together in catacombs and hidden places.
Slowly, but surely, Sabbath-keepers were driven into hiding while Sunday-keepers were out in the open.
During the reign of Emperor Hadrian, worshipping on the first day of the week became the norm."
(How the Sabbath Day became Sunday?)
"What can be said with confidence, though, is that the process that saw the rise of Sunday observance and the decline of Sabbath observance was a gradual one that began after the time period in which the New Testament writings were produced, that likely originated at Rome and Alexandria, and that was accelerated considerably under the patronage of Constantine the Great."
(https://research.avondale.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1105&context=theo_papers)
"There can be no doubt that Christ, His disciples, and the first-century Christians kept Saturday, the seventh-day Sabbath. Yet, today, most of the Christian professing world keeps Sunday, the first day of the week, calling it the Sabbath. Who made this change, and how did it occur?
No serious student of the Scriptures can deny that God instituted the Sabbath at creation and designated the seventh day to be kept holy.
However, when the Jews rebelled against Rome, the Romans put down their rebellion by destroying Jerusalem in A.D. 70 and again in A.D. 135. Obviously, the Roman government’s suppression of the Jews made it increasingly uncomfortable for Christians to be thought of as Jewish. At that time, Sunday was the rest day of the Roman Empire, whose religion was Mithraism, a form of sun worship. Since Sabbath observance is visible to others, some Christians in the early second century sought to distance themselves from Judaism by observing a different day, thus “blending in” to the society around them."
(Who Changed The Sabbath to Sunday? — The Church of God International)
I could post so many references to man, without Gods authority, changing the day of worship it would fill this forum...and yet Sunday worshipers blindly continue to believe instead in the traditions of men!
Jesus said to the pharasees in Matthew 15
v3 “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?"
v6 Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied correctly about you:8‘These people honor Me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from Me.9They worship Me in vain;
they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.’d”
He specifically warned us not to follow the traditions of men but to follow the commandments of God. Somewhere after the first century the early christian church lost sight of this statement, and Emporer Constantine (a pagan) ratified a tradition that was not Biblical thus began the process of fulfilment of the prophecy in Daniel 7
And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom. After them another king, different from the earlier ones, will rise and subdue three kings. 25He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time. 26But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever.
If we then jump forward to Revelation 14:12 we can now see why God inspired the Apostle John in vision with the following statement...
"12Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."
This change of day or whorship is absolutely the doing of the devil!
The prophet Daniel it is 100% foretold this as being a significant part of the prophecy about the mark of the beast, and one simply has to believe that those who refuse to keep the Sabbath who know they should keep all of the 10 commandments are instead following traditions of men. They are denying their saviour and will be lost.
Matthew 5
"For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven"
Now before the usual argument "all was fulfilled in A.D 70" proponents start flappy-trapping...I am able to pinch myself, the earth is still here full of pain and suffering, there are wars and rummours of wars all over the world...its been more than 1000 years since A.D70...that doctrine smells like a cow shed and obviously does not pass even the simplest of biblical "stink tests" it is obviously deeply deeply flawed!
This is not to say all Sunday worshipers will not be saved...that is 100% false. I believe that there will also be atheists in heaven and i think God is going to get a real kick out of seeing the looks on their faces when they realise they are saved!The reason i say this is because Jesus said in Matthew 25
"And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’45Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’"
What Jesus is saying here is that we are not saved because of our words...words do not save anyone. However, our actions do matter. In as much as we do it to the least of these our fellow bretheren, we do it unto Him!It is not salvation by works exactly, our works do not save us...but for those who do not know God, they are saved because they live their lives in his footsteps...they follow his principles...
Hebbrews 8:10For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord. I will put My laws in their minds and inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people.
They listen to that still small voice that is the conscience of God (the Holy Spirit) and treat their neighbours with love and kindness and compassion!
Now to put a very real perspective on Constantine...and this might be a horifying shock to some...i wonder how many people are aware that Adolph Hitler claimed to be a Christian?
True he was a delusional one, however, in his writings it appears that he genuinely believed he was doing the Lords work in persecuting the jews. For those who scoff at me stating that, I put a quote from him below.
“Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . . We need believing people.”
Now we know that the time of history has proven him to be a very evil man, and it may well be that the true meaning of the above quote was to illustrate how his government may utilize the methodology of religion in order to promote an evil regime philosophy of persecution and death amongst seemingly intelligent German people, but one has to seriously question why it is that quite a number of Nazi war criminals who escaped the allies courts after the war were helped by church clergymen?
Just like in the days of the early Christian church and particularly at the time of Constantine, the devil is very good at mixing a little truth with a whole lot of error!
Beware The Traditions of Men. Keep the Seventh Day Sabbath!
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The “historical” account you link to attacking St. Justin Martyr and others is entirely unsubstantiated and libelous of early Christian martyrs. These people all died for Christ. The ancient church always worshipped on the Sabbath and on Sunday, and also on Friday and Wednesday, commemorating on these days the betrayal of our Lord, His crucifixion, his rest in the Tomb (the real inner meaning of the Sabbath as a day of rest), and on the day of Resurrection. But the Resurrection is and should be the primary day of worship.
By the way, the Assyrian Church and Church of the East are synonymous, in part, in that every Assyrian is a member of the latter, but not every member of the Church of the East was or is Assyrian.
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Everything. Because Jesus Christ is God, according to both Testaments, and what He and the Apostles in the New said is as authoritative as anything in the Old Testament.
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Hezekiah81
Christ died for me so I died for him
Please enlighten us and share this authoritative scripture that says sunday is the new sanctified day of rest and worship, let me save you some time it doesn't exist, it's man fabricated doctrine that doesn't have one iota of God's word to support it.
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AdamjEdgar
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Did i read somewhere in a post on this topic the claim that Roman influence did not extend into Constantinople Turkey in the early church (around the second century)?
That's interesting because Justin the Martyr wrote his "Dialogue with Trypho" with the following setting...
That's interesting because Justin the Martyr wrote his "Dialogue with Trypho" with the following setting...
"a chance meeting between Justin and Trypho in Ephesus. Justin had just converted to Christianity from a philosophical background and Trypho had just fled the disturbances in Judea." (wikipedia)
Ephesus is in Turkey. here we have evidence of fleeing the Roman persecution by Christians into that area long before 3rd century.
Ephesus is in Turkey. here we have evidence of fleeing the Roman persecution by Christians into that area long before 3rd century.
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No. What you heard was the historically accurate statement that at no time was the Assyrian church subordinated to or under the control of the Roman one. Oh and by the way, it was in the Sassanian Empire, which was historically an enemy of Rome, which is one of the reasons why its historic independence is relevant.
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AdamjEdgar
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why would its historic independence be relevant when its Christianity came from within the Roman Empire itself and brought with it doctrines from that area? We also know the upper Mesopotamia was under Roman control...which is not far from Babylon.
The reality is this, how did Christianity appear in that region in the first place...it came from the West and of particular importance is the fact that it spread quickly due to persecution of the very people who were spreading it. That persecution started far West of this region.
It makes sense that doctrine also followed the people who were spreading Christianity, its a matter of how, why, and when the day of worship changed. We know there is not sufficient evidence to show that the day of worship changed whilst the apostles were still alive, rather the opposite seems to be the case.
In fact amongst the two arms of Christianity (jew and Gentile), the Messianic Jews at the time clearly kept the Sabbath. It remained a focal point of the worship, and yet strangely enough the Messianic philosophy essentially died out within the first 500 years AD and remained silent until very recently when it had a resurgence. It seems very strange that the Gentile side of the Gospel decided the Seventh Day Sabbath was no longer relevant (however, did this after the apostles had died out) and have continued with this error despite the 10 commandments and Jesus statement in Matthew 15:6-9
you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied correctly about you:8‘These people honor Me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from Me.9They worship Me in vain;
they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.
maintained that human interpretative view ever since
but their hearts are far from Me.9They worship Me in vain;
they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.
maintained that human interpretative view ever since
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Hezekiah81
Christ died for me so I died for him
(Deuteronomy 12:32) What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. [You know what you get when you compromise with the world, pagan days and pagan ways. God bless you.]
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