Old Covenant vs. New Covenant Leadership in the Church

guevaraj · Sep 18, 2021

BABerean2 said:
How many of those people in the Old Testament actually kept the ten commandments perfectly?

Brother, all those who did as God asked to stay obedient by "confessing" their sin to get "forgiveness".

BABerean2 said:
King David committed adultery, and conspired to have Uriah killed.

David did not remain disobedient for long because he "confessed" and was "forgiven", otherwise he would have died "for this sin" on the day of judgment.

David was furious. “As surely as the LORD lives,” he vowed, “any man who would do such a thing deserves to die! He must repay four lambs to the poor man for the one he stole and for having no pity.” Then Nathan said to David, “You are that man! . . . Then David confessed to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan replied, “Yes, but the LORD has forgiven you, and you won’t die for this sin. Nevertheless, because you have shown utter contempt for the word of the LORD by doing this, your child will die.” (2 Samuel 12:5-7a, 13-14 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

BABerean2 · Sep 19, 2021

guevaraj said:
Brother, all those who did as God asked to stay obedient by "confessing" their sin to get "forgiveness".

Nobody gets "forgiveness" without the blood of Christ.

How many have "confessed" a sin, and have no relationship with Christ?

Read Hebrews 11.
The Old Testament Saints had faith in the Messiah who was to come after their time.

Based on the verse below there were Old Testament Saints who had a relationship with the Holy Spirit.
Christ told Nicodemus nobody gets into the kingdom of God without being "born again" of the Spirit of God in John chapter 3.

Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

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guevaraj · Sep 19, 2021

BABerean2 said:
Christ told Nicodemus nobody gets into the kingdom of God without being "born again" of the Spirit of God in John chapter 3.

Brother, the Holy Spirit helps as the prophet Nathan did with David. David did not stay disobedient for long because he "confessed" and was "forgiven", otherwise he would have died "for this sin" on the day of judgment.

David was furious. “As surely as the LORD lives,” he vowed, “any man who would do such a thing deserves to die! He must repay four lambs to the poor man for the one he stole and for having no pity.” Then Nathan said to David, “You are that man! . . . Then David confessed to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan replied, “Yes, but the LORD has forgiven you, and you won’t die for this sin. Nevertheless, because you have shown utter contempt for the word of the LORD by doing this, your child will die.” (2 Samuel 12:5-7a, 13-14 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

BABerean2 · Sep 19, 2021

guevaraj said:
Brother, the Holy Spirit helps as the prophet Nathan did with David. David did not stay disobedient for long because he "confessed" and was "forgiven", otherwise he would have died "for this sin" on the day of judgment.

David was furious. “As surely as the LORD lives,” he vowed, “any man who would do such a thing deserves to die! He must repay four lambs to the poor man for the one he stole and for having no pity.” Then Nathan said to David, “You are that man! . . . Then David confessed to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan replied, “Yes, but the LORD has forgiven you, and you won’t die for this sin. Nevertheless, because you have shown utter contempt for the word of the LORD by doing this, your child will die.” (2 Samuel 12:5-7a, 13-14 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

What sin did the child commit?

Did somebody have to pay for David's sin.

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guevaraj · Sep 19, 2021

BABerean2 said:
What sin did the child commit? Did somebody have to pay for David's sin.

Brother, that the child had to die for what he represented does not mean that he is lost. This is what our prophetess said is learned from the scriptures.

...the faith of the believing parents covers the children, as when God sent His judgments upon the first-born of the Egyptians. The word of God came to the Israelites in bondage to gather their children into their houses and to mark the doorposts of their houses with blood from a lamb, slain. This prefigured the slaying of the Son of God and the efficacy of His blood, which was shed for the salvation of the sinner. It was a sign that the household accepted Christ as the promised Redeemer. It was shielded from the destroyer's power. The parents evidenced their faith in implicitly obeying the directions given them, and the faith of the parents covered themselves and their children. They showed their faith in Jesus, the great Sacrifice, whose blood was prefigured in the slain lamb. The destroying angel passed over every house that had this mark upon it. This is a symbol to show that the faith of the parents extends to their children and covers them from the destroying angel. (Selected Messages Book 3, pages 313-314)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

BABerean2 · Sep 19, 2021

guevaraj said:
Brother, that the child had to die for what he represented does not mean that he is lost. This is what our prophetess said is learned from the scriptures.

...the faith of the believing parents covers the children, as when God sent His judgments upon the first-born of the Egyptians.

What your "prophetess" said is not found in the Bible.

Christ told Nicodemus nobody can inherit the kingdom of God without being "born-again" of the Spirit of God, in John chapter 3.

This fact is confirmed below by Paul.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

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guevaraj · Sep 19, 2021

BABerean2 said:
Christ told Nicodemus nobody can inherit the kingdom of God without being "born-again" of the Spirit of God, in John chapter 3. This fact is confirmed below by Paul. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Brother, you assume that God views children as independent of parents when what we learn from the Passover blood on the doorposts in Egypt is that God extends the faith of the parents or the lack of faith to the children under their care. I understand from the Passover experience that if God saves David, Bathsheba, or both, He will also return their underage child to them.

The Jewish leaders still refused to believe the man had been blind and could now see, so they called in his parents. They asked them, “Is this your son? Was he born blind? If so, how can he now see?” His parents replied, “We know this is our son and that he was born blind, but we don’t know how he can see or who healed him. Ask him. He is old enough to speak for himself.” His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders, who had announced that anyone saying Jesus was the Messiah would be expelled from the synagogue. That’s why they said, “He is old enough. Ask him.” (John 9:18-23 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

BABerean2 · Sep 20, 2021

guevaraj said:
Brother, you assume that God views children as independent of parents when what we learn from the Passover blood on the doorposts in Egypt is that God extends the faith of the parents or the lack of faith to the children under their care. I understand from the Passover experience that if God saves David, Bathsheba, or both, He will also return their underage child to them.

The Jewish leaders still refused to believe the man had been blind and could now see, so they called in his parents. They asked them, “Is this your son? Was he born blind? If so, how can he now see?” His parents replied, “We know this is our son and that he was born blind, but we don’t know how he can see or who healed him. Ask him. He is old enough to speak for himself.” His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders, who had announced that anyone saying Jesus was the Messiah would be expelled from the synagogue. That’s why they said, “He is old enough. Ask him.” (John 9:18-23 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Why would you ignore the words of Christ in order to make your interpretation work?

Do you think Christ was mistaken in the verse above?

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

The only way to get into the New Covenant is found below.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

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guevaraj · Sep 20, 2021

BABerean2 said:
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Why would you ignore the words of Christ in order to make your interpretation work? Do you think Christ was mistaken in the verse above? 1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? The only way to get into the New Covenant is found below. Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Brother, the difference is that you are using a portion of the Bible and I am using all of the Bible. Here is an illustration by skipping a verse to show what happens if you do not use all of the Bible.

Then God said to Abraham, “Your responsibility is to obey the terms of the covenant. You and all your descendants have this continual responsibility. This is the covenant that you and your descendants must keep: Each male among you must be circumcised. You must cut off the flesh of your foreskin as a sign of the covenant between me and you... All must be circumcised. Your bodies will bear the mark of my everlasting covenant. Any male who fails to be circumcised will be cut off from the covenant family for breaking the covenant.” (17:11-14 NLT)

If you read only the above, skipping verse 12, you think a child under 8 days old is cut off from the covenant because you did not read verse 12 below. This is why I said that you assume that God views children as independent of parents in this illustration when they are less than eight days old.

From generation to generation, every male child must be circumcised on the eighth day after his birth. This applies not only to members of your family but also to the servants born in your household and the foreign-born servants whom you have purchased. (Genesis 17:12 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

BABerean2 · Sep 21, 2021

guevaraj said:
Brother, the difference is that you are using a portion of the Bible and I am using all of the Bible. Here is an illustration by skipping a verse to show what happens if you do not use all of the Bible.

Then God said to Abraham, “Your responsibility is to obey the terms of the covenant. You and all your descendants have this continual responsibility. This is the covenant that you and your descendants must keep: Each male among you must be circumcised. You must cut off the flesh of your foreskin as a sign of the covenant between me and you... All must be circumcised. Your bodies will bear the mark of my everlasting covenant. Any male who fails to be circumcised will be cut off from the covenant family for breaking the covenant.” (17:11-14 NLT)

If you read only the above, skipping verse 12, you think a child under 8 days old is cut off from the covenant because you did not read verse 12 below. This is why I said that you assume that God views children as independent of parents in this illustration when they are less than eight days old.

From generation to generation, every male child must be circumcised on the eighth day after his birth. This applies not only to members of your family but also to the servants born in your household and the foreign-born servants whom you have purchased. (Genesis 17:12 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Judas Iscariot was circumcised on the 8th day.

Even though Judas betrayed Christ, do you think Judas received eternal life because he was circumcised on the eighth day of his life?

You appear to not understand the fact that the Abrahamic Covenant does not bring eternal life.

The Pharisees who betrayed Christ were all circumcised on the 8th day.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

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guevaraj · Sep 21, 2021

BABerean2 said:
Even though Judas betrayed Christ, do you think Judas received eternal life because he was circumcised on the eighth day of his life?

Brother, Judas is lost because of his sin, he never did what God said to get forgiveness.

“I have sinned,” he declared, “for I have betrayed an innocent man.” “What do we care?” they retorted. “That’s your problem.” (Matthew 27:4 NLT)

BABerean2 said:
You appear to not understand the fact that the Abrahamic Covenant does not bring eternal life.

Daniel was under the old covenant and we know that he gets eternal life.

“As for you, go your way until the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days, you will rise again to receive the inheritance set aside for you.” (Daniel 12:13 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Thera · Sep 21, 2021

guevaraj said:
Daniel was under the old covenant and we know that he gets eternal life.

“As for you, go your way until the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days, you will rise again to receive the inheritance set aside for you.” (Daniel 12:13 NLT)

I thought the penalty for adultery was the same as the penalty for uncircumcision? So if keeping the law was a requirement for salvation, David would be damned for his adultery.

guevaraj · Sep 21, 2021

Thera said:
I thought the penalty for adultery was the same as the penalty for uncircumcision? So if keeping the law was a requirement for salvation, David would be damned for his adultery.

Brother, David did not remain disobedient for long because he "confessed" and was "forgiven", otherwise he would have died "for this sin" on the day of judgment.

David was furious. “As surely as the LORD lives,” he vowed, “any man who would do such a thing deserves to die! He must repay four lambs to the poor man for the one he stole and for having no pity.” Then Nathan said to David, “You are that man! . . . Then David confessed to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan replied, “Yes, but the LORD has forgiven you, and you won’t die for this sin. Nevertheless, because you have shown utter contempt for the word of the LORD by doing this, your child will die.” (2 Samuel 12:5-7a, 13-14 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

BABerean2 · Sep 21, 2021

guevaraj said:
Daniel was under the old covenant and we know that he gets eternal life.

“As for you, go your way until the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days, you will rise again to receive the inheritance set aside for you.” (Daniel 12:13 NLT)

Are you claiming Daniel gets eternal life because he was circumcised, or because he was under the Old Covenant system, or was it because he was "born-again" of the Spirit of God?

Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

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guevaraj · Sep 21, 2021

BABerean2 said:
Are you claiming Daniel gets eternal life because he was circumcised, or because he was under the Old Covenant system, or was it because he was "born-again" of the Spirit of God?

Brother, all the above in what amounts to "born-gain" by the Spirit, returning us to obedience. In David's case, equal to "born-again" by the Spirit "for this sin" through the prophet Nathan, who lead David to return to obedience as the Spirit does. I am saying that Daniel gets eternal life because he was obedient as David was until death. David would have allowed Nathan to end his life because he deserved it. The way God saves based on your obedience is by seeing your obedience as a show of faith, but getting God's salvation is through obedience surrendering to God's will. David surrendered to God's will, but Judas dealt with his sin in his own way and never surrendered to God's will. David, although he sinned, was obedient in confessing that he was worthy of death, but God forgave him. Judas knew that he had sinned but did not turn to God to deal with him. Judas did not want to live with this stain in his past. Judas turned to himself for a solution while David surrendered to God to deal with him. United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

BABerean2 · Sep 21, 2021

guevaraj said:
Brother, all the above in what amounts to "born-gain" by the Spirit, returning us to obedience.

If "obedience" is the mark of salvation, why did Paul have to correct Peter in the Book of Galatians?

Why did Paul contrast Faith and works in the passage below?

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The word you are looking for is "faith". Read Hebrews chapter 11 again.

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guevaraj · Sep 21, 2021

BABerean2 said:
Why did Paul contrast Faith and works

Brother, Paul did not want you to think that your salvation is based on perfect obedience. God sees your obedience as faith and you don't need a lot of faith for God to save you. God can also save those who have a weak faith as those who have a strong faith. God can still save you even when your faith is not as strong as that of others. Just make an effort to obey and trust that God can save you. As you try, your obedience will grow. This is a great opportunity to bring us back to the Sabbath question. We are growing into the likeness of Jesus, who kept the Sabbath even in His death. Apart from Jesus, who lives to "intercede" for us in the heavenly temple as our High Priest until He returns, there is no example of what we will be.

Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever. (Hebrews 7:25-28 NIV)

Not even Seventh-day Adventists living today are an example of what we will be, because we continue to grow into the likeness of Jesus, some more than others. Everyone is wrong about the Sabbath! The Holy Spirit has not corrected the Sunday tradition because no denomination has the truth about the Sabbath. Not even Seventh-day Adventists, who need to grow more in their understanding of the Sabbath.

See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure. (1 John 3:1-3 NIV)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

BABerean2 · Sep 21, 2021

guevaraj said:
Everyone is wrong about the Sabbath!

Some of us are not wrong about the Sabbath.
Some of us believe what Paul said below.

Our Sabbath rest is no longer a day of the week, because it was only a "shadow" of Christ.

The Sabbath of those in the New Covenant is the Lord Jesus Christ. He is our Sabbath rest.

Col 2:16 Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body is of the Christ;

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BABerean2 · Sep 22, 2021

guevaraj said:
We are growing into the likeness of Jesus, who kept the Sabbath even in His death.

Christ worked on the Sabbath day, and so do I.

Joh 5:1 After these things there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Joh 5:2 and there is in Jerusalem by the sheep- gate a pool that is called in Hebrew Bethesda, having five porches,
Joh 5:3 in these were lying a great multitude of the ailing, blind, lame, withered, waiting for the moving of the water,
Joh 5:4 for a messenger at a set time was going down in the pool, and was troubling the water, the first then having gone in after the troubling of the water, became whole of whatever sickness he was held.
Joh 5:5 and there was a certain man there being in ailment thirty and eight years,
Joh 5:6 him Jesus having seen lying, and having known that he is already a long time, he saith to him, 'Dost thou wish to become whole?'
Joh 5:7 The ailing man answered him, 'Sir, I have no man, that, when the water may be troubled, he may put me into the pool, and while I am coming, another doth go down before me.'
Joh 5:8 Jesus saith to him, 'Rise, take up thy couch, and be walking;'
Joh 5:9 and immediately the man became whole, and he took up his couch, and was walking, and it was a sabbath on that day,
Joh 5:10 the Jews then said to him that hath been healed, 'It is a sabbath; it is not lawful to thee to take up the couch.'
Joh 5:11 He answered them, 'He who made me whole—that one said to me, Take up thy couch, and be walking;'
Joh 5:12 they questioned him, then, 'Who is the man who is saying to thee, Take up thy couch and be walking?'
Joh 5:13 But he that was healed had not known who he is, for Jesus did move away, a multitude being in the place.
Joh 5:14 After these things, Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said to him, 'Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.'
Joh 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it is Jesus who made him whole,
Joh 5:16 and because of this were the Jews persecuting Jesus, and seeking to kill him, because these things he was doing on a sabbath.
Joh 5:17 And Jesus answered them, 'My Father till now doth work, and I work;'

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guevaraj · Sep 22, 2021

BABerean2 said:
Some of us are not wrong about the Sabbath.
Some of us believe what Paul said below. Our Sabbath rest is no longer a day of the week, because it was only a "shadow" of Christ. The Sabbath of those in the New Covenant is the Lord Jesus Christ. He is our Sabbath rest. Col 2:16 Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths, Col 2:17 which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body is of the Christ;

Brother, it has been a shadow because no one has obeyed the true Sabbath established in the creation week, which is not an assumed day of the week, but fixed is in that time zone and separated from the week. The call to correct the Sabbath tradition of Judaism is found in Hebrews 3 and 4 under the new covenant. United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

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