Has the Church Replaced Israel ?

Brightfame52 · Sep 15, 2021

Who is the Holy Nation ?

1 Pet 2:9

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Many believe this speaks of ethnic national israel over in the middle east, but that is far from the truth. The Holy Nation here is non other than the Body of Christ, the Church comprised of both jew and gentile converts, believers. How do i know this ? Well its by scripture comparison, this same Holy Nation here in 1 Pet 2:9 is called also in Vs 5

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Its called a Spiritual House which has reference to the Temple/Tabernacle of God of God, which is Spiritual.

Now this same epithet is used for the Church in Eph 2:19-22

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Spiritual House of 1 Pet 2:5 and the Holy Temple/Habitation of God through the Spirit of Eph 2:21,22 are the same !

And if that be so, the Church, comprised of both reconciled jew and gentile converts of Eph 2 is the Holy Nation of 1 Pet 2:9

The fulfillment of Ex 19:6

And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

This isnt replacement theology but fulfillment theology according to the scriptures.

Gup20 · Sep 15, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
Who is the Holy Nation ?

1 Pet 2:9

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Many believe this speaks of ethnic national israel over in the middle east, but that is far from the truth. The Holy Nation here is non other than the Body of Christ, the Church comprised of both jew and gentile converts, believers. How do i know this ? Well its by scripture comparison, this same Holy Nation here in 1 Pet 2:9 is called also in Vs 5

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Its called a Spiritual House which has reference to the Temple/Tabernacle of God of God, which is Spiritual.

Now this same epithet is used for the Church in Eph 2:19-22

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Spiritual House of 1 Pet 2:5 and the Holy Temple/Habitation of God through the Spirit of Eph 2:21,22 are the same !

And if that be so, the Church, comprised of both reconciled jew and gentile converts of Eph 2 is the Holy Nation of 1 Pet 2:9

The fulfillment of Ex 19:6

And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

This isnt replacement theology but fulfillment theology according to the scriptures.

Psalms prophesies of Jesus:

Psa 69:21 They also gave me gall for my food And for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

In this passage Jesus says:

23 May their eyes grow dim so that they cannot see, And make their loins shake continually. 24 Pour out Your indignation on them, And may Your burning anger overtake them. 25 May their camp be desolate; May none dwell in their tents. 26 For they have persecuted him whom You Yourself have smitten, And they tell of the pain of those whom You have wounded. 27 Add iniquity to their iniquity, And may they not come into Your righteousness. 28 May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.

It is interesting that, speaking of the Jews who crucified him, Jesus asked that they be blotted out of the book of life. This means they were written... they are not among those who were not written as Revelation talks about, but rather those who were written and then erased. They are erased if they do not believe in Jesus as the messiah.

Since the covenant of faith pre-dates the law by 430 years, and since the covenant of faith was ratified at the end of Genesis 15, we know that Paul spoke the truth when he said that once a covenant has been ratified it cannot be added to or have conditions placed upon it. The covenant of faith given to Abraham when he was uncircumcised gentile is not modified by the Law. It begs the question - why covenant with the Jews AFTER he had already covenant with the gentiles... because both groups were part of the plan. Neither replaces the other, but both have their role in the plan of salvation. The Jews to keep the law whereby Christ was justified as righteous and gave up his righteousness so that we could inherit it. The Gentile Abrahamic covenant whereby that justified legal righteousness could be granted as an inheritance to all the descendants of Abraham... Jew and Gentile alike ... who had the same faith in the gospel that Abraham had.

Brightfame52 · Sep 16, 2021

The True Israel of God, the Church, Paul calls them the circumcision , which is another name for Israel Phil 3:3

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.129

Paul was writing to the Church at Philipi Phil 1:1

Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

In fact, all the Saints in Christ Jesus are the circumcision, which worship God in the Spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus. Circumcision here is not physical, what the jews practiced under the Old Covenant, no it has noting to do with that. Its the circumcision of the heart Rom 2:29

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Whats been stated here is the New Birth, Gal 6:15

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

The circumcision of Christ Col 2:11

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

This is the Church, Spiritual Israel, Christs seed !

Gup20 · Sep 16, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
The True Israel of God, the Church, Paul calls them the circumcision , which is another name for Israel Phil 3:3

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.129

Paul was writing to the Church at Philipi Phil 1:1

Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

In fact, all the Saints in Christ Jesus are the circumcision, which worship God in the Spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus. Circumcision here is not physical, what the jews practiced under the Old Covenant, no it has noting to do with that. Its the circumcision of the heart Rom 2:29

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Whats been stated here is the New Birth, Gal 6:15

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

The circumcision of Christ Col 2:11

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

This is the Church, Spiritual Israel, Christs seed !

Spiritual circumcision is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit -- when a person is made righteous.

Rom 2:29 - But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

Gen 17:4, 7, 9-10 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. ... 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your SEED after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your SEED after you. ... 9 God said further to Abraham, "Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your SEED after you throughout their generations. 10 "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your SEED after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.

Deu 30:6 "Moreover, the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the hearts of your SEED, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and all your soul, so that you may live.

Rom 4:9-13, 16-17 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written: "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [that is,] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that do not exist.

Eph 1:13-14 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

The pattern created in the Abrahamic covenant of faith in the gospel (Gal 3:8) says that Abraham believed God while uncircumcised -- and circumcision represents the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (so much for Calvinism!). He received the sign of circumcision as the SEAL of the righteousness of faith. In Eph 1:13-14 it says the Holy Spirit in us is that seal of the righteousness of faith -- circumcision of the heart.

This agrees with one of the best descriptions of salvation by faith found in Deuteronomy 30 where it describes the circumcision of the heart.

Deu 30:1, 6, 15, 19 1 "So it will be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have placed before you, and you call [them] to mind in all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you, ... 6 "Moreover, the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the hearts of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and all your soul, so that you may live. ... 15 "See, I have placed before you today life and happiness, and death and adversity, ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Romans 10 confirms that Deu 30 is speaking of the righteousness which comes by faith.

Deu 30:11-14 11 "For this commandment which I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it far away. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you could say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us and get it for us, and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you could say, 'Who will cross the sea for us and get it for us and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?' 14 "On the contrary, the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may follow it.

Rom 10:5-8 5 For Moses writes of the righteousness that is based on the Law, that the person who performs them will live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL GO UP INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

I call Deu 30 the Bible's treatise on Calvinism, but it describes very well the choice of whether to have faith in the gospel or not and how that leads to circumcision of the heart.

Eze 36:26-27 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "And I will put My Spirit within you and bring it about that you walk in My statutes, and are careful and follow My ordinances.

Brightfame52 · Sep 17, 2021

We know that the Church is the antitype of old testament israel when we consider a comparison of 1 Pet 2:9 as the fulfillment of Ex 19:5

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: and Deut 14:2

For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

1 Pet 2:9

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Now the greek word for peculiar in 1 Pet 2 is the word περιποίησις and means:

a preserving, a preservation
possession, one's own property
an obtaining

Now the word comes from the verb peripoieō which means:

to make to remain over
to reserve, to leave or keep safe, lay by
to make to remain for one's self
to preserve for one's self
to get for one's self, purchase

Which word Paul uses for purchase here Acts 20:28

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

So the Church of God is that peculiar people of God in 1 Pet 2:9 which fulfills the OT Type israel In Exodus nd Deut. For God only has One Peculiar people and that's through the Blood of Christ.

Brightfame52 · Sep 17, 2021

Gup20 said:
Spiritual circumcision is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit -- when a person is made righteous.

Rom 2:29 - But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

Gen 17:4, 7, 9-10 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. ... 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your SEED after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your SEED after you. ... 9 God said further to Abraham, "Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your SEED after you throughout their generations. 10 "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your SEED after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.

Deu 30:6 "Moreover, the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the hearts of your SEED, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and all your soul, so that you may live.

Rom 4:9-13, 16-17 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written: "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [that is,] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that do not exist.

Eph 1:13-14 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

The pattern created in the Abrahamic covenant of faith in the gospel (Gal 3:8) says that Abraham believed God while uncircumcised -- and circumcision represents the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (so much for Calvinism!). He received the sign of circumcision as the SEAL of the righteousness of faith. In Eph 1:13-14 it says the Holy Spirit in us is that seal of the righteousness of faith -- circumcision of the heart.

This agrees with one of the best descriptions of salvation by faith found in Deuteronomy 30 where it describes the circumcision of the heart.

Deu 30:1, 6, 15, 19 1 "So it will be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have placed before you, and you call [them] to mind in all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you, ... 6 "Moreover, the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the hearts of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and all your soul, so that you may live. ... 15 "See, I have placed before you today life and happiness, and death and adversity, ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Romans 10 confirms that Deu 30 is speaking of the righteousness which comes by faith.

Deu 30:11-14 11 "For this commandment which I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it far away. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you could say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us and get it for us, and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you could say, 'Who will cross the sea for us and get it for us and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?' 14 "On the contrary, the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may follow it.

Rom 10:5-8 5 For Moses writes of the righteousness that is based on the Law, that the person who performs them will live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL GO UP INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

I call Deu 30 the Bible's treatise on Calvinism, but it describes very well the choice of whether to have faith in the gospel or not and how that leads to circumcision of the heart.

Eze 36:26-27 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "And I will put My Spirit within you and bring it about that you walk in My statutes, and are careful and follow My ordinances.

so you are aware that these OT Promises are fulfilled in the Church, the Body of Christ, right ?

Gup20 · Sep 17, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
so you are aware that these OT Promises are fulfilled in the Church, the Body of Christ, right ?

Technically, they are fulfilled in Christ and we who are in Christ get to share in it. The term "The Church" is misleading because Catholocism used that term for two thousand years to mean something other than the Ecclesia that the Bible talks about.

If you want to get absolutely accurate, the righteousness of Christ went to Abraham and God's promise to Abraham that his "Seed" would inherit that righteousness applies to "the seed to whom the promise had been made" but also to those descendants who are of the same faith as Abraham (those with the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ -- or Yeshua Messiach for my Jewish brethren).

Gal 3:6-9, 16, 18-19 NASB 6 Just as Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, recognize that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [one would in referring] to many, but [rather] as [in referring] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. ... 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. 19 Why the Law then? It was added on account of the violations, having been ordered through angels at the hand of a mediator, until the Seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

Begs the question: why does God have to promise Jesus Christ that he would "inherit" righteousness if Jesus was already righteous? It is because Jesus didn't resurrect himself by his own righteousness. Jesus was the first person resurrected by the Christian covenant of faith from Genesis 15-17 in order to demonstrate that the covenant was in effect and worked. If Jesus resurrects himself, and takes back his own righteousness, then we get our sin back since that righteousness was the purchase price of our redemption. Rather, Jesus INHERITED righteousness through God's promise to Abraham.

Heb 13:20 NASB 20 Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, [that is,] Jesus our Lord,

Gen 17:7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your SEED after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your SEED after you.

Heb 1:4 NASB 4 having become so much better than the angels, to the extent that He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

Rom 8:11, 15-17 NASB 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. ... 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons [and daughters] by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]

Deu 30:6, 19 NASB 6 "Moreover, the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the hearts of your descendants (SEED), to love the LORD your God with all your heart and all your soul, so that you may live. ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

The Spirit Himself (heaven) and our spirit (earth) testifies (bares witness) of the choice we make whether to believe the gospel or not (Rom 8:16 and Deu 30:19 echo one another). When we choose to believe, we inherit righteous through the Abrahamic covenant of faith from the Father of Many Nations. Once we have inherited that righteousness, the Holy Spirit is able to indwell us (circumcision of the heart). Jesus demonstrated that this covenant works by being the first to be resurrected by that means.

This covenant would have no effect if there was no righteousness available to pay for Abraham's credit. The Jewish law (Torah, Law of Moses) is the ironclad legally binding contract which certifies Jesus' righteousness as authentic and genuine. Without it, the Abrahamic covenant would be an unredeemed credit. That legally binding contract is necessary for Christ's righteousness to be available for use in the Abrahamic covenant. The Nation of Israel remains a special people in God's eyes because of their role in being given and keeping custody of The Law. Not that they could ever be made righteous by it, but rather that it needed to be kept by a trusted custodian until the seed would come to whom the promise made to Abraham would come.

Rom 11:15-18 NASB 15 For if their rejection [proves to be] the reconciliation of the world, what [will their] acceptance [be] but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece [of dough] is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are as well. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, [remember that] it is not you who supports the root, but the root [supports] you.

"The Church" has boasted against Israel for too long. They support us, not the other way around. Without them, we'd still be lost in our sin. This is not to say that Israel hasn't been blind to the way of salvation... they certainly have been (as stated in the OT and NT). But through them Christ's righteousness has come to all who believe.

Brightfame52 · Sep 17, 2021

gup20

Technically, they are fulfilled in Christ

Christ and His Body the Church are One !

Gup20 · Sep 17, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
gup20

Christ and His Body the Church are One !

Indeed!

And one day Christ and the Jews will be one even as are Christ and the Church are one. This will be nothing short of the most glorious day in humanity.

Rom 11:20-32 NASB 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural [branches] be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not want you, brothers [and sisters,] to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." 27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." 28 In relation to the gospel [they are] enemies on your account, but in relation to [God's] choice [they are] beloved on account of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all.

When OT scripture speaks of Israel, it is often an allegory for the Church, and when it speaks of Jacob it is often an allegory for the Jews. Even while enemies of the gospel, they still retained a choice position as "God's choice" because the gifts and calling of God are without repentance so they will always be a Holy Nation set apart for God. Those who speak against Israel as the chosen people of God undermine their own covenant with God. If they were not chosen, then neither were we, and then the Christian covenant becomes feckless. Plus, the Bible warns not to boast against the native branches.

Brightfame52 · Sep 17, 2021

gup20

And one day Christ and the Jews will be one even as are Christ and the Church are one.

False. The saved jews and saved gentiles are already one with Christ, thats the Church.

Gup20 · Sep 17, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
gup20

False. The saved jews and saved gentiles are already one with Christ, thats the Church.

I think you are wrong at this one point. Clearly Romans 11 describes all of Jacob (the Jews) having their blindness removed & being grafted back in to their own Olive tree.

Don’t you realize that Jesus Himself prophesied the restoration of the Jews and that he wouldn’t return until they - as a country - acknowledged & worshipped him?

Matthew 23:37-39 (NASB) 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 “Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 “For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘BLESSED IS THE ONE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!’”

And the Land of Israel was desolate for 2000 years! This was a curse they brought on themselves at Jesus’ crucifixion:

Deuteronomy 21:23 (NASB)
his body is not to be left overnight on the tree, but you shall certainly bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is cursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.

Remember, there was an eclipse of the sun & darkness for 3 hours as Jesus hung on the cross, thereby defiling the land and making it desolate (the curse was on the land of Isrrael, not the Jewish people).

If you want to hasten the return of the Lord, then you would do everything you can to restore the Jews to the Abrahamic covenant. This will come from the outpouring of God’s glory that will bring in 1 billion souls over the next decade as Israel is provoked to jealousy. Like the wedding where Jesus turned the water into wine, the best was saved for last. When they, as a nation, recognize Christ as Messiah, He will return.

Brightfame52 · Sep 18, 2021

Gup20 said:
I think you are wrong at this one point. Clearly Romans 11 describes all of Jacob (the Jews) having their blindness removed & being grafted back in to their own Olive tree.

Don’t you realize that Jesus Himself prophesied the restoration of the Jews and that he wouldn’t return until they - as a country - acknowledged & worshipped him?

Matthew 23:37-39 (NASB) 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 “Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 “For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘BLESSED IS THE ONE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!’”

And the Land of Israel was desolate for 2000 years! This was a curse they brought on themselves at Jesus’ crucifixion:

Deuteronomy 21:23 (NASB)
his body is not to be left overnight on the tree, but you shall certainly bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is cursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.

Remember, there was an eclipse of the sun & darkness for 3 hours as Jesus hung on the cross, thereby defiling the land and making it desolate (the curse was on the land of Isrrael, not the Jewish people).

If you want to hasten the return of the Lord, then you would do everything you can to restore the Jews to the Abrahamic covenant. This will come from the outpouring of God’s glory that will bring in 1 billion souls over the next decade as Israel is provoked to jealousy. Like the wedding where Jesus turned the water into wine, the best was saved for last. When they, as a nation, recognize Christ as Messiah, He will return.

I think you are wrong, and I have already explained why.

Gup20 · Sep 18, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
I think you are wrong, and I have already explained why.

I think you are boasting against the Jews which the Bible clearly warns us not to do.

1 Corinthians 5:6 (NASB)
Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?

Speaking of the Jews, Paul says:

Romans 11:16 (NASB) If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are as well.

Romans 11:12 (NASB) Now if their wrongdoing proves to be riches for the world, and their failure, riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!

Romans 11:15 (NASB) For if their rejection proves to be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Romans 11:18 (NASB) do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

The point is not to say there is another way or that the Jews have their own covenant…. Rather it is to show they are still a chosen people with a glorious destiny in Christ. When you reject them as Gods chosen, you undermine the gospel. They can still be God’s chosen people & be living in sin or in a state of disobedience. This happened often throughout Israel’s history, but God always brings them back to Himself.

Brightfame52 · Sep 18, 2021

Gup20 said:
I think you are boasting against the Jews which the Bible clearly warns us not to do.

1 Corinthians 5:6 (NASB)
Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?

Speaking of the Jews, Paul says:

Romans 11:16 (NASB) If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are as well.

Romans 11:12 (NASB) Now if their wrongdoing proves to be riches for the world, and their failure, riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!

Romans 11:15 (NASB) For if their rejection proves to be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Romans 11:18 (NASB) do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

The point is not to say there is another way or that the Jews have their own covenant…. Rather it is to show they are still a chosen people with a glorious destiny in Christ. When you reject them as Gods chosen, you undermine the gospel. They can still be God’s chosen people & be living in sin or in a state of disobedience. This happened often throughout Israel’s history, but God always brings them back to Himself.

We will see at the Judgment my friend, yet I believe you are in error, I explained why.

Gup20 · Sep 18, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
We will see at the Judgment my friend, yet I believe you are in error, I explained why.

I think you have confused "allegory" with "metaphor."

Gal 4:22-24 NASB 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is speaking allegorically, for these [women] are two covenants: one [coming] from Mount Sinai giving birth to children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.

If the Old Testament were using metaphor, then the words would symbolically represent something else - in other words, you would be correct in your assumptions that "Israel" metaphorically meant "the Church." However, this was an allegory -- it means the story is literal but has a dual meaning. In other words, God's promise to the nation of Israel is literal, but He also meant The Church. Without the promise to Israel the nation being literal, the meaning regarding Israel The Church cannot be literal.

Now Hagar and Ishmael allegorically represent the Jewish people and The Law - the legitimate firstborn heir.

Gal 4:25 NASB 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is enslaved with her children.

While God makes the covenant of righteousness by faith with Abraham (allegorically representing faith and the church), he also makes a covenant with Hagar:

Gen 17:4, 7, 18-21 NASB 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. ... 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your seed after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your seed after you. ... 18 And Abraham said to God, "Oh that Ishmael might live before You!" 19 But God said, "No, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his seed after him. 20 "As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and make him fruitful and multiply him exceedingly. He shall father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 "But I will establish My covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year."

The covenant of faith and righteousness was through the promise of Isaac (the second-born heir) whereas God blessed Ishmael and said he would be a single great nation with 12 princes (the 12 tribes of Israel, the nation). Salvation was through the covenant of faith, but Israel as a nation was (and is) blessed of God and remains a chosen people.

Gal 4:26-31 NASB 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written: "REJOICE, INFERTILE ONE, YOU WHO DO NOT GIVE BIRTH; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE ONE [ARE] MORE NUMEROUS THAN [THOSE] OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you, brothers [and sisters,] like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time the [son] who was born according to the flesh persecuted the one [who was born] according to the Spirit, so it is even now. 30 But what does the Scripture say? "DRIVE OUT THE SLAVE WOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE SLAVE WOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." 31 So then, brothers [and sisters,] we are not children of a slave woman, but of the free woman.

The Jews do not have a covenant whereby they will be saved, but nonetheless, they do have a covenant through which the savior would (and did) come, and they are a chosen people. Further, that Jesus and the Law and Prophets prophesied that one day the Jews will accept the truth of Yeshua and be grafted back into their own olive tree.

The passage in Isaiah 54:1 which speaks of the married woman who physically gives birth to offspring (the Jews) and the desolate woman who has many more heirs though she hasn't physically given birth (the Church) STILL lists Jews and Christians as covenanted, chosen peoples... and none of the other peoples, nations, or religions of the earth.

I honestly don't understand the anti-semitic undertones within the body of Christ. You don't get that from reading the Bible, so where does it come from? Why the refusal to treat Jews as brothers and sisters?

Rom 3:1-4 NASB 1 Then what advantage does the Jew have? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First, that they were entrusted with the actual words of God. 3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? 4 Far from it! Rather, God must prove to be true, though every person [be found] a liar, as it is written: "SO THAT YOU ARE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED."

Brightfame52 · Sep 19, 2021

Gup20 said:
I think you have confused "allegory" with "metaphor."

Gal 4:22-24 NASB 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is speaking allegorically, for these [women] are two covenants: one [coming] from Mount Sinai giving birth to children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.

If the Old Testament were using metaphor, then the words would symbolically represent something else - in other words, you would be correct in your assumptions that "Israel" metaphorically meant "the Church." However, this was an allegory -- it means the story is literal but has a dual meaning. In other words, God's promise to the nation of Israel is literal, but He also meant The Church. Without the promise to Israel the nation being literal, the meaning regarding Israel The Church cannot be literal.

Now Hagar and Ishmael allegorically represent the Jewish people and The Law - the legitimate firstborn heir.

Gal 4:25 NASB 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is enslaved with her children.

While God makes the covenant of righteousness by faith with Abraham (allegorically representing faith and the church), he also makes a covenant with Hagar:

Gen 17:4, 7, 18-21 NASB 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. ... 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your seed after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your seed after you. ... 18 And Abraham said to God, "Oh that Ishmael might live before You!" 19 But God said, "No, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his seed after him. 20 "As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and make him fruitful and multiply him exceedingly. He shall father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 "But I will establish My covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year."

The covenant of faith and righteousness was through the promise of Isaac (the second-born heir) whereas God blessed Ishmael and said he would be a single great nation with 12 princes (the 12 tribes of Israel, the nation). Salvation was through the covenant of faith, but Israel as a nation was (and is) blessed of God and remains a chosen people.

Gal 4:26-31 NASB 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written: "REJOICE, INFERTILE ONE, YOU WHO DO NOT GIVE BIRTH; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE ONE [ARE] MORE NUMEROUS THAN [THOSE] OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you, brothers [and sisters,] like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time the [son] who was born according to the flesh persecuted the one [who was born] according to the Spirit, so it is even now. 30 But what does the Scripture say? "DRIVE OUT THE SLAVE WOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE SLAVE WOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." 31 So then, brothers [and sisters,] we are not children of a slave woman, but of the free woman.

The Jews do not have a covenant whereby they will be saved, but nonetheless, they do have a covenant through which the savior would (and did) come, and they are a chosen people. Further, that Jesus and the Law and Prophets prophesied that one day the Jews will accept the truth of Yeshua and be grafted back into their own olive tree.

The passage in Isaiah 54:1 which speaks of the married woman who physically gives birth to offspring (the Jews) and the desolate woman who has many more heirs though she hasn't physically given birth (the Church) STILL lists Jews and Christians as covenanted, chosen peoples... and none of the other peoples, nations, or religions of the earth.

I honestly don't understand the anti-semitic undertones within the body of Christ. You don't get that from reading the Bible, so where does it come from? Why the refusal to treat Jews as brothers and sisters?

Rom 3:1-4 NASB 1 Then what advantage does the Jew have? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First, that they were entrusted with the actual words of God. 3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? 4 Far from it! Rather, God must prove to be true, though every person [be found] a liar, as it is written: "SO THAT YOU ARE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED."

You still dont get it after all that.

tturt · Sep 19, 2021

Might want to check out Derek Prince on youtube concerning Israell. He knew several languages including Hebrew and was a Greek scholar. He was a minister for 50 years.

Gup20 · Sep 19, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
You still dont get it after all that.

That’s why I said this:

-I honestly don't understand the anti-semitic undertones within the body of Christ. You don't get that from reading the Bible, so where does it come from?

Brightfame52 · Sep 19, 2021

Another scripture that speaks of the Church that applies to 1 Pet 2:9

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Its Eph 1:14 when speaking of the Church comprised of both jew and gentile believers in Ephesus

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Now what is the purchased possession ? Why its the Church, bought with a price, as here Acts 20:28

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Now the words purchased possession in Eph 1:14 is the same word for " a peculiar people " in 1 Pet 2:9, now how so that ? Because they're the same exact people !

Gup20 · Sep 19, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
Another scripture that speaks of the Church that applies to 1 Pet 2:9

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Its Eph 1:14 when speaking of the Church comprised of both jew and gentile believers in Ephesus

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Now what is the purchased possession ? Why its the Church, bought with a price, as here Acts 20:28

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Now the words purchased possession in Eph 1:14 is the same word for " a peculiar people " in 1 Pet 2:9, now how so that ? Because they're the same exact people !

The term “peculiar people” only appears in some translations, but many render it “God’s own possession.”

1 Peter 2:9 (NASB) But you are A CHOSEN PEOPLE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR GOD’S OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Eph 1:14 makes less sense without the context of verse 13 which makes the people it’s talking about abundantly clear:

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB) 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Of course this echos Romans 4:

Romans 4:9-13 (NASB) 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
16-17 (NASB) 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written: “I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, that is, God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that do not exist.

Paul then quotes Genesis 17 as the foundation of this doctrine where God made the Abrahamic covenant of faith and instituted circumcision as a seal of the righteousness Abraham obtained for his faith in Genesis 15:5-6.

Genesis 15-17 is part of Torah, the law, and God continued to expound on this covenant of faith throughout the law. For example Paul quotes extensively from Deuteronomy 30 when talking about the righteousness which comes by faith in Romans 10.

Romans 10:5-11 (NASB) 5 For Moses writes of the righteousness that is based on the Law, that the person who performs them will live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL GO UP INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME.”

Deuteronomy 30:1 (NASB) “So it will be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have placed before you, and you call them to mind in all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you,
… 6 (NASB) “Moreover, the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the hearts of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and all your soul, so that you may live.
11-15 (NASB) 11 “For this commandment which I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it far away. 12 “It is not in heaven, that you could say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us and get it for us, and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?’ 13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you could say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us and get it for us and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?’ 14 “On the contrary, the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may follow it. 15 “See, I have placed before you today life and happiness, and death and adversity,
… 19 (NASB) “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

God entrusted these oracles about the righteousness which comes by faith to the Jewish people alone through The Law which is a wholly Jewish covenant.

Has the Church Replaced Israel ?

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