The Origin of Sin

E Hess · Jul 26, 2020

This is something that bothered my for a long time because the Bible says that nothing can exist without God. So did God create sin? Because nothing exists without him. The problem is this is a complicated answer that a simple yes or no won't fit.

It is true that nothing comes into existence without God, but he isn't the author of sin because he can't abide sin. So where did it come from? Lucifer, as he was known before falling from grace. The origin of sin lays in the greatest gift God ever bestowed upon his creations, free will. In order for free will to exist, there has to be the capacity for someone to do the wrong thing, otherwise how can there be a choice at all?

What God created was the capacity for evil to exist, but it was Satan that is the true author of sin. He was the one who created the first sin, pride. Once it consumed him every other travesty the universe has ever known spilled forth from him. All because he wanted to be God rather than serve him.

JackRT · Jul 26, 2020

E Hess said:
This is something that bothered my for a long time because the Bible says that nothing can exist without God. So did God create sin? Because nothing exists without him. The problem is this is a complicated answer that a simple yes or no won't fit.

It is true that nothing comes into existence without God, but he isn't the author of sin because he can't abide sin. So where did it come from? Lucifer, as he was known before falling from grace. The origin of sin lays in the greatest gift God ever bestowed upon his creations, free will. In order for free will to exist, there has to be the capacity for someone to do the wrong thing, otherwise how can there be a choice at all?

What God created was the capacity for evil to exist, but it was Satan that is the true author of sin. He was the one who created the first sin, pride. Once it consumed him every other travesty the universe has ever known spilled forth from him. All because he wanted to be God rather than serve him.

The Serpent, Satan, Lucifer, the Devil, demons etc. are, in my opinion, convenient human excuses for our own nature.

I do not read the Genesis myth as a fall from an original state of perfection into sin and death. The first couple were completely innocent and naïve creatures. They were certainly capable of making a mistake but, without knowing good from evil, they lacked even the ability to sin. That ability came only with them eating of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". To me the story is a "coming of age story". Our mythical first couple graduated from animal status into to fully self aware human beings capable of making moral judgements. This is not an Original Sin story but rather an Original Blessing story that should be celebrated. We are not a people fallen from an original state of perfection into sin and death.

Why the expulsion from Eden? In the mythology, I believe it to be symbolic that mankind was no longer a naïve creature living in moral ignorance but had become real men and women living in a real world where there was real good and evil.

What we are is a people that is still evolving and that evolution has profoundly affected not just our bodies but our psyches as well. The world in which we evolved was a difficult and dangerous one and mere survival was of the highest priority. Selfishness became a part of who we are as a survival mechanism. This selfish instinct is no longer as necessary as in our savage past but it is still powerful. If there is an "Original Sin", this is it. Of course it is not a sin really but an innate part of our nature and it can be overcome.

In the words of Bishop John Spong: "Every living thing, plant and animal is programmed to survive. What is true of all these living things is also true of human life. The only difference is that we human beings are self-conscious, while plants and animals are not. If survival is our highest goal, self-centeredness is inevitable and thus this quality becomes a constant part of the human experience. Traditionally, the church has called this "original sin" and has explained it with the myth of the fall. That was simply wrong. Survival is a quality found in life itself. There was no fall. Self-centered, survival driven, self-conscious creatures is simply who we are. There is thus no such thing as "original sin" from which we need to be rescued by a divine invader. So much of traditional Christianity assumes this false premise."

In conclusion, we are born sinless but we are not born perfect. We have the defect of selfishness and from that flows every other sin --- greed, gluttony, lust, anger, sloth and the like.

So, in conclusion, God cannot be blamed for sin.

Tolworth John · Jul 27, 2020

Evil is not a thing, it is the absence of good, sin is part of evil it is missing the mark of obedience to God's will and law.
As you say Adam had to have the ability to freely choose between obedience and disobedience, just as the devil had that opportunity.

pescador · Aug 1, 2020

JackRT said:
The Serpent, Satan, Lucifer, the Devil, demons etc. are, in my opinion, convenient human excuses for our own nature.

I do not read the Genesis myth as a fall from an original state of perfection into sin and death. The first couple were completely innocent and naïve creatures. They were certainly capable of making a mistake but, without knowing good from evil, they lacked even the ability to sin. That ability came only with them eating of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". To me the story is a "coming of age story". Our mythical first couple graduated from animal status into to fully self aware human beings capable of making moral judgements. This is not an Original Sin story but rather an Original Blessing story that should be celebrated. We are not a people fallen from an original state of perfection into sin and death.

Why the expulsion from Eden? In the mythology, I believe it to be symbolic that mankind was no longer a naïve creature living in moral ignorance but had become real men and women living in a real world where there was real good and evil.

What we are is a people that is still evolving and that evolution has profoundly affected not just our bodies but our psyches as well. The world in which we evolved was a difficult and dangerous one and mere survival was of the highest priority. Selfishness became a part of who we are as a survival mechanism. This selfish instinct is no longer as necessary as in our savage past but it is still powerful. If there is an "Original Sin", this is it. Of course it is not a sin really but an innate part of our nature and it can be overcome.

In the words of Bishop John Spong: "Every living thing, plant and animal is programmed to survive. What is true of all these living things is also true of human life. The only difference is that we human beings are self-conscious, while plants and animals are not. If survival is our highest goal, self-centeredness is inevitable and thus this quality becomes a constant part of the human experience. Traditionally, the church has called this "original sin" and has explained it with the myth of the fall. That was simply wrong. Survival is a quality found in life itself. There was no fall. Self-centered, survival driven, self-conscious creatures is simply who we are. There is thus no such thing as "original sin" from which we need to be rescued by a divine invader. So much of traditional Christianity assumes this false premise."

In conclusion, we are born sinless but we are not born perfect. We have the defect of selfishness and from that flows every other sin --- greed, gluttony, lust, anger, sloth and the like.

So, in conclusion, God cannot be blamed for sin.

"Self-centered, survival driven, self-conscious creatures is simply who we are" .. if we are not Christians. Jesus has said that we as Christians are just the opposite if we have been "born again" and received our new divine nature. Guess whom I believe!

FaithWillDo · May 9, 2021

Dear E Hess,
Yes, God is the creator of all things and is responsible for all things that exist. And nothing exists without God intending for it to exist. He never makes mistakes. For God, sin and evil are merely tools which He uses to create new children. In other words, creation and all that is in it, is for the express purpose of birthing God's children.

Here are some verses to consider:

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

God made Satan to play a part in this creation. He is NOT a fallen angel. He was made FROM THE BEGINNING to be as He is. God uses him to deceive and to kill. He used him in the Garden of Eden and He uses him now to deceive the world (everyone except God's Elect). Satan is not a mistake nor is he an uncontrollable creature. He is serving God in the capacity that God intended. To believe otherwise would be bringing God down to the level of mankind who make mistakes (sins).

Where does evil come from? Evil comes from God. It was purposefully created by God and is used by God for His good purposes:

Isa 45:5-7 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do all these things.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Job 2:10 But he said to her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. We have also received good from God, and should we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

If mankind is to become like God who understands "good and evil", then this understanding of good and evil must be a part of our "birthing" experience. That is why the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was in the Garden.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

It was and has been God's plan all along for mankind to sin so that we will learn about good and evil. We can't truly know one without the other. For this to be accomplished, God has given us an experience evil, not just on the receiving end of evil but also on the giving end of it as well.

And to give us this experience, God made Adam and Eve spiritually flawed creatures, who, when given a body of flesh, quickly developed a carnal nature which is the source of mankind's sinning.

This is proven out by Eve, who exhibited all three scriptural causes of sin (1Jo 2:16) BEFORE she sinned. These three causes of sin are contained within mankind's carnal nature and we have all experienced them.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (LUST OF THE FLESH), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (LUST OF THE EYES), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (PRIDE OF LIFE), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

But since God's purpose is to produce offspring, God will not leave us in this sinful, evil condition for ever. After the purpose of evil has been satisfied within each of us, Christ will come to us at a time of His choosing and spiritually destroy our flawed carnal nature and give us a new birth as a child of God.

Rom 8:20-22 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

In the end, all mankind will be changed and God will be "all in all".

Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

What a glorious future mankind has!

Joe

BeyondET · Jun 5, 2021

why did Cain murder in the beginning

pescador · Jun 5, 2021

BeyondET said:
why did Cain murder in the beginning

He murdered Abel because he was angry that God had rejected his offering but accepted Abel's. He took his rage out on his (innocent) brother instead of raging against God.

Fervent · Jun 30, 2021

Sin is, ultimately, anything departing from God. Given God's nature, sin is necessarily a negative yet it is also necessary for anything besides God to exist and so God intends sin, but has no part of it. It is entirely separate from God, with no part in God. So He is not the author of sin, but in creating beings separate from Himself He created both the possibility and the inevitability of sin, with us realizing and giving definition to sin. It is in no way created by God, so He is not its author, but He created the circumstances for it to exist by creating beings that were capable of creating realities apart from Him and His will. Knowing sin is an inevitable and unavoidable reality for creating autonomous beings, God created the solution to sin in the cross which defeats it by allowing it to be swallowed up in its own inconsistency. Defeating evil not by resistance and greater evil, but through capitulation exposing it for the vapor that it is.

Derf · Sep 18, 2021

E Hess said:
This is something that bothered my for a long time because the Bible says that nothing can exist without God. So did God create sin? Because nothing exists without him. The problem is this is a complicated answer that a simple yes or no won't fit.

It is true that nothing comes into existence without God, but he isn't the author of sin because he can't abide sin. So where did it come from? Lucifer, as he was known before falling from grace. The origin of sin lays in the greatest gift God ever bestowed upon his creations, free will. In order for free will to exist, there has to be the capacity for someone to do the wrong thing, otherwise how can there be a choice at all?

What God created was the capacity for evil to exist, but it was Satan that is the true author of sin. He was the one who created the first sin, pride. Once it consumed him every other travesty the universe has ever known spilled forth from him. All because he wanted to be God rather than serve him.

What if you wanted to create something that would be able to love you back? Wouldn't you have to create something that could also not love you, else the love is forced and not love at all?

But if you loved that creation, and wanted it to be with you, you would have to find a way to let it not love you, but save it from the fate of anything that has no more use in your life, if it decides not to love you.

What if your plan to redeem the useless creation that won't love you involves personal sacrifice for each of your creations, unless the sacrifice can be made to apply to all.

Satan's job became that of catalyst, to make sure the first man sinned before he had offspring, so that only one such great and personal sacrifice would be necessary.

fhansen · Oct 3, 2021

Creation has an inherent imperfection: it’s, simply, not God. God alone is infinitely perfect in all His uncreated ways, including in His wisdom. So to create rational beings with the gift of free will: men and angels, is quite a risky business. And yet God, knowing the end from the beginning as only He does, deemed it to be a worthwhile endeavor. We’re here to learn one thing first before and above all else, something Adam didn’t yet get in Eden, of our undeniable need for God.

Here, in a world where Adam essentially got his way, where autonomy from God and His direct moral control is the life man is now born into, we experiment with that freedom and experience its consequences daily. Born without the "knowledge of God", effectively cut off from Him, man's will reigns in this world with all the consequences that result including the sin/evil that we so often choose. Here we literally know evil, and by contrast good, directly, viscerally. And so here we have the opportunity to choose between the two. But we can’t do even that on our own even as we can and should begin to develop a hunger and thirst for truth and righteousness in a world that so often sorely rejects and lacks both.

So the first and most basic choice for man to make is to give up on himself and choose, with the help of grace, the ultimate Good, which is God, reversing Adam’s choice within ourselves. When God becomes our God again, which begins with faith, then justice and order begin to rule the day in our lives. And this relationship with God naturally begets the ultimate justice or righteousness in man, which is love. Love opposes and excludes sin/evil, attaining obedience, by its nature. This love is what Adam didn’t yet value or appreciate in Eden. Presumably, with the help of grace and revelation, he’s done so by now.

To the extent that man loves God with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and his neighbor as himself, his intended purpose and perfection are realized. Man was made for communion with God-and man’s own will is utilized, at God’s discretion and according to His wisdom, in the process of attaining that goal. That’s the final purpose of our will, in fact, to arrive at that choice, the choice to love, as God does, even if this is impossible without grace, apart from Him IOW. The bottom line of our faith, the basis of the New Covenant: “Apart from Me you can do nothing”. John 15:5

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The Origin of Sin

E Hess

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JackRT

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Tolworth John

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pescador

Wise old man

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FaithWillDo

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BeyondET

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pescador

Wise old man

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Fervent

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Derf

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fhansen

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