LCMS ~ Chariot of Fire

FaithT · Sep 17, 2021

In Scripture where Elijah is taken up in a chariot of fire is that fact? Fiction? Supernatural? Miracle? Symbolic? What?

Nitsud · Sep 17, 2021

I for one believe it to be fact. Although i think that chariot of fire is the only way they could come up with to describe the happening. When the story was recorded they didn't have as many words to use for descriptions.
I for one saw some beings that I believe were of God after I made him not happy with me. I in a moment realized my worth and prayed as Jesus instructed. All I can say is they are real, emanated pure light, had no distinct form per say, and nothing but comfort, security and assurance came from them. Though I wish everyone would get a chance to see, the Word says, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed” (John 20:26–29).

Handmaid for Jesus · Sep 17, 2021

Hope1960 said:
In Scripture where Elijah is taken up in a chariot of fire is that fact? Fiction? Supernatural? Miracle? Symbolic? What?

It is both fact and supernatural.

Nitsud · Sep 18, 2021

Handmaid for Jesus said:
It is both fact and supernatural.

Yes and technically it is probably all except the fiction.

FaithT · Sep 18, 2021

It just seems hard to believe unless it was a miracle.

FaithT · Sep 18, 2021

Handmaid for Jesus said:
It is both fact and supernatural.

But in an actual, man made earthly chariot?

Handmaid for Jesus · Sep 18, 2021

Hope1960 said:
But in an actual, man,axe, earthly chariot?

We can only go by what is written.

FaithT · Sep 18, 2021

Handmaid for Jesus said:
We can only go by what is written.

Sorry, that was supposed to say: in an actual man made earthly chariot?

Daniel9v9 · Sep 20, 2021

There's a lot going on in this text, but let's look at it in brief:

First of all, the text is a literal, historical account. It's not symbolism, and it's not fantasy. It's God's divine work — a miracle — nothing ordinary, manmade, or exaggerated. God has the power to work both through and above natural law. The chariots of fire are above natural law, just like the virgin birth of Christ and His resurrection.

I don't think we can know exactly what the miracle looked like, but I think it's good to remember that even in visions and symbols, God uses things that are known to the prophets and the people to convey a very particular meaning. That is, God didn't have to create chariots of fire to assume Elijah into heaven, but He chose to do it this way for the benefit of Elisha and for our benefit.

Here's some context: Elijah is a prophet sent by God, and he was a spiritual father to Elisha, who was also a prophet. Elisha, in his great love for Elijah and God, insisted on following him. Though it was prophecised that Elijah would be taken by the Lord, Elisha followed him, knowing his master was about to be taken away from him. When Elijah was about to be taken, he told Elisha: "Ask what I shall do for you, before I am taken from you." And Elisha said: "Please let there be a double portion of your spirit on me." This is to say, according to God's Law, Elisha requested to be his successor and his true son. According to God's Word, the firstborn son has a right to a double portion of his father's inheritance (Deuteronomy 21:17). Elijah replies that this is not his blessing to give, but it must come from God. And so he told Elisha: "If you see me as I am being taken from you, it shall be so for you, but if you do not see me, it shall not be so."

So, when we think about the miracle in its own narrow context, God's purpose of it is to communicate to Elisha that He has heard his petition, and that God has chosen him to be Elijah's successor. The chariot and horses of fire were given as a sign and a seal to Elisha, that he was called to carry on the work that God gave to Elijah.

Exactly why the miracle was in the form of a chariot and horses of fire, and a whirlwind, is not explicitly made clear, but it can perhaps signify the power and election of God — that Elijah was God's true ambassador, as opposed to the apostate king. The imagery is that of power from above and royalty. And this calls to my mind 1 Peter 2:9, that in Christ, who is the only Son of the Father and the firstborn (Colossians 1:15), and the King of Kings, we are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession. So that through faith in Christ, we are both adopted and promised life, which is sealed to us in Holy Baptism. And we can look forward to the day when our Lord takes us to heaven also.

Blessings!

FaithT · Sep 20, 2021

Daniel9v9 said:
There's a lot going on in this text, but let's look at it in brief:

First of all, the text is a literal, historical account. It's not symbolism, and it's not fantasy. It's God's divine work — a miracle — nothing ordinary, manmade, or exaggerated. God has the power to work both through and above natural law. The chariots of fire are above natural law, just like the virgin birth of Christ and His resurrection.

I don't think we can know exactly what the miracle looked like, but I think it's good to remember that even in visions and symbols, God uses things that are known to the prophets and the people to convey a very particular meaning. That is, God didn't have to create chariots of fire to assume Elijah into heaven, but He chose to do it this way for the benefit of Elisha and for our benefit.

Here's some context: Elijah is a prophet sent by God, and he was a spiritual father to Elisha, who was also a prophet. Elisha, in his great love for Elijah and God, insisted on following him. Though it was prophecised that Elijah would be taken by the Lord, Elisha followed him, knowing his master was about to be taken away from him. When Elijah was about to be taken, he told Elisha: "Ask what I shall do for you, before I am taken from you." And Elisha said: "Please let there be a double portion of your spirit on me." This is to say, according to God's Law, Elisha requested to be his successor and his true son. According to God's Word, the firstborn son has a right to a double portion of his father's inheritance (Deuteronomy 21:17). Elijah replies that this is not his blessing to give, but it must come from God. And so he told Elisha: "If you see me as I am being taken from you, it shall be so for you, but if you do not see me, it shall not be so."

So, when we think about the miracle in its own narrow context, God's purpose of it is to communicate to Elisha that He has heard his petition, and that God has chosen him to be Elijah's successor. The chariot and horses of fire were given as a sign and a seal to Elisha, that he was called to carry on the work that God gave to Elijah.

Exactly why the miracle was in the form of a chariot and horses of fire, and a whirlwind, is not explicitly made clear, but it can perhaps signify the power and election of God — that Elijah was God's true ambassador, as opposed to the apostate king. The imagery is that of power from above and royalty. And this calls to my mind 1 Peter 2:9, that in Christ, who is the only Son of the Father and the firstborn (Colossians 1:15), and the King of Kings, we are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession. So that through faith in Christ, we are both adopted and promised life, which is sealed to us in Holy Baptism. And we can look forward to the day when our Lord takes us to heaven also.

Blessings!

So it’s a true and supernatural thing, right?

Daniel9v9 · Sep 20, 2021

Hope1960 said:
So it’s a true and supernatural thing, right?

Yes, correct! If God can create the universe and raise the dead, He can also put a couple of horses on fire.

MarkRohfrietsch · Sep 20, 2021

Who were present bodily at the ascension? Elijah and Moses. Elijah was taken up bodily into heaven; after Moses died, an angel took his remains, as the devil wanted to desecrate his bones.

Two Biblical examples of persons being assumed into Heaven.

Off topic, but such is the reason some Lutherans accept the Assumption of Mary.

FaithT · Sep 22, 2021

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Who were present bodily at the ascension? Elijah and Moses. Elijah was taken up bodily into heaven; after Moses died, an angel took his remains, as the devil wanted to desecrate his bones.

Two Biblical examples of persons being assumed into Heaven.

Off topic, but such is the reason some Lutherans accept the Assumption of Mary.

I didn’t know that some Lutherans believed in the Assumption of Mary. Which ones?

MarkRohfrietsch · Sep 23, 2021

Hope1960 said:
I didn’t know that some Lutherans believed in the Assumption of Mary. Which ones?

Adiaphora; some of us accept the possibility.

To quote the Rev. William Weedon LCMS: "The Lutheran Church neither affirms nor denies her assumption; for us it is in the area of what God has not chosen to reveal to us - i.e., none of our business. Thus we consider it sufficient to rejoice in Mary's sharing in her Son's triumph over death and the grave in whatever manner He chose to do for her."

FaithT · Sep 23, 2021

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Adiaphora; some of us accept the possibility.

To quote the Rev. William Weedon LCMS: "The Lutheran Church neither affirms nor denies her assumption; for us it is in the area of what God has not chosen to reveal to us - i.e., none of our business. Thus we consider it sufficient to rejoice in Mary's sharing in her Son's triumph over death and the grave in whatever manner He chose to do for her."

Makes sense. But I took a class at church called something like Lutherans vs Catholics and the person leading the class was our head pastor (not the one I talk to). I think he said that Mary wasn’t assumed into heaven.

MarkRohfrietsch · Sep 23, 2021

Hope1960 said:
Makes sense. But I took a class at church called something like Lutherans vs Catholics and the person leading the class was our head pastor (not the one I talk to). I think he said that Mary wasn’t assumed into heaven.

He is free to hold that opinion; it is not doctrine or dogma for us; rather a matter of pious opinion.

FaithT · Sep 25, 2021

MarkRohfrietsch said:
He is free to hold that opinion; it is not doctrine or dogma for us; rather a matter of pious opinion.

He was kind of condescending toward Catholics and Catholic beliefs.

MarkRohfrietsch · Sep 25, 2021

Hope1960 said:
He was kind of condescending toward Catholics and Catholic beliefs.

Some people are more traditional than others, unfortunate when it turns disrespectful.

Roymond · Feb 2, 2022

Hope1960 said:
Sorry, that was supposed to say: in an actual man made earthly chariot?

Not man-made, since the chariot and horses just "appeared" in the whirlwind God had sent to take Elijah, and they were "fiery" from the start.

BTW, the chariot and horses weren't just a random choice, they had meaning. For once "GotAnswers" has a good response:

The mode of transportation God chose for Elijah contains some important symbolism. The horses speak of power and speed; the chariot speaks of protection and triumph. The whole being “of fire” speaks of glory. God took His servant speedily, triumphantly into the glories of heaven, guarding his soul all the way. The prophet who had shown such fiery zeal for God—and who had literally called down fire from heaven several times (1 Kings 18; 2 Kings 1)—was now taken to heaven in fire.

So, a divinely-generated whirlwind, a divinely-supplied chariot with horses, as not just transportation but a message to Elisha.

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