Does going against John Calvin mean going against God?

Mark Quayle · Sep 18, 2021

prophecy_uk said:
Mark: Killing someone if necessary, in defense of others, is not murder."

Mark, your talk is about killing, Christ is the new talk, you know, a greater than Solomon here and now grace and truth through Christ, not the law ( of killing your enemies) as in Moses, now no killing, not even talk, but talk of saving life and being harmless as doves

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ

Hebrews 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Matthew 12:42
The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Philippians 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Hebrews 7:26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

The Quaker, confronting a burglar, "Friend, I would thee no harm, but thee standest where I am about to shoot!"

Mark Quayle · Sep 18, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I would say, "Yes.", but perhaps it's not actually a second chance. - lol

All creation, every knee and every tongue, on earth, in heaven and under the earth.

Maybe I should have said, "opportunity", instead of "chance", so as not to make you suspect entrapment,

To the point, though it is an aside in the thread: It's not Satan's first opportunity, but to be honest, I don't see in Scripture any ability on the part of any fallen angels to repent, nor of any good angels to rebel, subsequent to that first rebellion.

Mark Quayle · Sep 18, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Sausage, remember? (not hamburger - lol) Where there is sausage, there is a grinder. Can't have one without the other.

Therefore, though you see no sausage, just a grinder, sausage is implied?

Mark Quayle · Sep 18, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Play fair.
You just threw all my verses away to ask if I had more?
I guess you didn't see the bold words? (not limited to the Elect)
- the whole world
- everyone
- all
- all people

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

No. Good hermeneutics throws away your take on these verses. I am only referring to your conclusion that there is sausage since there is a meat grinder.

Mark Quayle · Sep 18, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Isn't that an argument from silence?
I posted the scripture about God telling Moses to return to Egypt because those who wanted his life were no longer alive.

You are the one arguing from silence. You claim the silence means something. I don't know if it was murder in God's eyes or not, nor even if Moses felt guilty about it. The silence doesn't say anything about the question. It means nothing, exegetically.

Mark Quayle · Sep 18, 2021

Saint Steven said:
He fled the country. What does that infer?

He was afraid for his life. That is not the same as guilt. That is simple practicality.

Though, I'd be interested to see the next day's headlines in the newspapyrus!

Mark Quayle · Sep 18, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Everyone ends up together when everyone is ready. No one is left out.
Sorry. (I hope that's not too disappointing)

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

So in the end, they are all the same in God's eyes —all elect? All members of the Bride? Or you don't know, or what?

Saint Steven · Sep 18, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Maybe I should have said, "opportunity", instead of "chance", so as not to make you suspect entrapment, To the point, though it is an aside in the thread: It's not Satan's first opportunity, but to be honest, I don't see in Scripture any ability on the part of any fallen angels to repent, nor of any good angels to rebel, subsequent to that first rebellion.

Well, the issue is that we are talking about angelic beings (part of God's creation) having the opportunity to grace that humans have. There was no offer to them of grace through the cross and resurrection that I am aware of. Which would be first chance material.

However, at some point ALL of creation will be restored, so they would have a place in that. God likes a good story, so I see Satan as the last one out of the hot tub. (so to speak) And that will complete the full work of restoration.

Certainly a better place to end than with a forever burning hell always roaring. A constant thorn to those with loved ones there suffering unspeakable horrors. Forever. With no hope of escape. Does God do that? I don't think so. Completely out of character.

Saint Steven · Sep 18, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Therefore, though you see no sausage, just a grinder, sausage is implied?

No. The opposite.
You are in essence asking to see the grinder. I'm saying I only have the sausage for evidence that there is a grinder. The end infers the process. Like, no cheese without milk. To use another food analogy.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Sausage, remember? (not hamburger - lol) Where there is sausage, there is a grinder. Can't have one without the other.

Saint Steven · Sep 18, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
No. Good hermeneutics throws away your take on these verses.

No. A Damnationist presupposition "throws away" my take on these verses. What I would call BAD hermeneutics. (ignoring what a scripture clearly says in order to support a preferred doctrine) As if to say, "It can't mean what it clearly says."

Saint Steven · Sep 18, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
You are the one arguing from silence. You claim the silence means something. I don't know if it was murder in God's eyes or not, nor even if Moses felt guilty about it. The silence doesn't say anything about the question. It means nothing, exegetically.

What?!
I am saying God didn't make an issue of the murder Moses committed; you are claiming he did. The burden of evidence should be on you, not me. Yours is the argument from silence. Right?

Saint Steven · Sep 18, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
So in the end, they are all the same in God's eyes —all elect? All members of the Bride? Or you don't know, or what?

Just like the Ford truck plant. Only trucks coming off the end of the line.

Mark Quayle · Sep 18, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Well, the issue is that we are talking about angelic beings (part of God's creation) having the opportunity to grace that humans have. There was no offer to them of grace through the cross and resurrection that I am aware of. Which would be first chance material.

However, at some point ALL of creation will be restored, so they would have a place in that. God likes a good story, so I see Satan as the last one out of the hot tub. (so to speak) And that will complete the full work of restoration.

Certainly a better place to end than with a forever burning hell always roaring. A constant thorn to those with loved ones there suffering unspeakable horrors. Forever. With no hope of escape. Does God do that? I don't think so. Completely out of character.

Justice is never out of character for God.

As for the constant thorn, why did Jesus say, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple." Do we not already know that whatever God does is good? Why would we, glorified beings, all sinful leanings removed, have a constant thorn against something God did, however awful it might seem to us in this current temporal mentality?

Mark Quayle · Sep 18, 2021

Saint Steven said:
No. The opposite.
You are in essence asking to see the grinder. I'm saying I only have the sausage for evidence that there is a grinder. The end infers the process. Like, no cheese without milk. To use another food analogy.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Sausage, remember? (not hamburger - lol) Where there is sausage, there is a grinder. Can't have one without the other.

But all you have offered is what you think is the sausage, (though it seems to me you claim cause, not result). I want to see the result in the Bible. You claim all saved, but you don't show the resultant function in the Bible, while we do see in the Bible, concerning those saved during this temporal life, the resultant function in Heaven. Among many other reasons, purposes, results, in Heaven, mentioned in Scripture, we are the Bride of Christ, God's Dwelling place. I see nothing concerning the lost in that vein.

Mark Quayle · Sep 18, 2021

Saint Steven said:
No. A Damnationist presupposition "throws away" my take on these verses. What I would call BAD hermeneutics. (ignoring what a scripture clearly says in order to support a preferred doctrine) As if to say, "It can't mean what it clearly says."

If you take the verse out of context, and use such words as 'all' to mean absolutely every one in support of your thesis, and ignore even the obvious use of the verse (alone, nevermind even in context) to show a completely different use of the word, 'all', unlike what you claim —yeah, bad hermeneutics.

Mark Quayle · Sep 18, 2021

Saint Steven said:
What?!
I am saying God didn't make an issue of the murder Moses committed; you are claiming he did. The burden of evidence should be on you, not me. Yours is the argument from silence. Right?

No. I am not claiming God made an issue of it. I don't know if he did or not. I am saying the silence means nothing on the matter.

Mark Quayle · Sep 18, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Just like the Ford truck plant. Only trucks coming off the end of the line.

Wow. No specific members of the Bride even? Just a homogenous bunch of folks?

Derf · Sep 18, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Imagine being Moses when the TCs were given.
- Idolatry. Haven't done that one.
- Adultery. Haven't done that one.
- Murder. (clears throat) - lol

That’s why Numbers 12:3 (NKJV) (Now the man Moses [was] very humble, more than all men who [were] on the face of the earth.)

Ceallaigh · Sep 18, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Wow. No specific members of the Bride even? Just a homogenous bunch of folks?

I believe the idea is that the Bride of Christ consists of the firstfruits. As in those who are gathered first. The cream of the crop.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:20-28

Mark Quayle · Sep 18, 2021

MMXX said:
I believe the idea is that the Bride of Christ consists of the firstfruits. As in those who are gathered first.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:20-28

So then the rest.... what, 'friends of the bride' a la Song of Solomon or something? That's the silence I hear. Nothing from Scripture to definitely say that they too are redeemed. Nor even that they eventually pay down their own debt, or are purified, after which they are relieved of their torment and restored to God.

Does going against John Calvin mean going against God?

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

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May God be with you and bless you.

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

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