David Bentley Hart on Hell

Saint Steven

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Neither of these anathemas have anything to do with universalism but with other beliefs that Origen (it was probably him although he is not mentioned by name) held such as the pre-existence of the soul. These anathemas in any case are contained in an appendix and most scholars now believe that it was ordered by Justine and has nothing to do with the council.
And lets not forget the politics involved in this "council". The Pope refused to be a part of it. He had to be escorted there. And refused to give the opening statement. But now we have fine folks on a forum citing it as if it was legitimate.
 
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Ceallaigh

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And lets not forget the politics involved in this "council". The Pope refused to be a part of it. He had to be escorted there. And refused to give the opening statement. But now we have fine folks on a forum citing it as if it was legitimate.

That and things started going south from the sixth century onwards anyways.
 
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Saint Steven

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That and things started going south from the sixth century onwards anyways.
Yes, I suppose their wonderful councils gave us all the stuff that led to the Reformation. Good job guys.
 
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Lukaris

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Yes, I suppose their wonderful councils gave us all the stuff that led to the Reformation. Good job guys.


I never realized it is so easy to know what should have been. It is one thing to criticize aspects but what good or bad might have resulted is always up for grabs unfortunately.
 
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prophecy_uk

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You guys do know you are not supposed to see anything here, as it is temporal, unless you did not wish to be eternal, otherwise you only consider what is of the eternal, it is a secret I guess..


2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
 
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Saint Steven

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I never realized it is so easy to know what should have been. It is one thing to criticize aspects but what good or bad might have resulted is always up for grabs unfortunately.
Quiz: How many theses on the Wittenburg door? (95) Couldn't see that coming?
 
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Lukaris

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Quiz: How many theses on the Wittenburg door? (95) Couldn't see that coming?

Not a factor within Orthodox Christianity.

Trusting in your faith is to not be blind to those who undermine it through evil & ignorance. A good Catholic example is Bartolome de las Cassas:

Bartolomé de las Casas - Wikipedia

A good Protestant example is Dietrich Bonhoeffer (I presume he is familiar).


A good Orthodox example is St. Maximus the Confessor:
Maximus the Confessor - Wikipedia.
 
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Ceallaigh

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I never realized it so easy to sum up human history & know what should have been.

Like the Dark Ages and what led to the Great Schism in 1054.
 
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Lukaris

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Like the Dark Ages and what led to the Great Schism in 1054.


Christianity survived Roman persecution, became intertwined in Roman politics ( from anti Christian Diocletian, to pro Christianity Constantine, to anti Christian Julian to cruel, pro Christian Justinian etc. etc.). The Eastern Orthodox Christians and Zoroastrian Persians pounded each other to pulp, then plague, then Islam. The pagan Vikings plundered much of Christianized Europe ( & elsewhere) while Christian Irish monks ( see: https://www.amazon.com/How-Irish-Sa...5418493#aw-udpv3-customer-reviews_feature_div ) helped maintain civilization.

Similar events probably would have occurred whether Christianity existed or not ( John 18:36-38).
 
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Ceallaigh

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Christianity survived Roman persecution, became intertwined in Roman politics ( from anti Christian Diocletian, to pro Christianity Constantine, to anti Christian Julian to cruel, pro Christian Justinian etc. etc.). The Eastern Orthodox Christians and Zoroastrian Persians pounded each other to pulp, then plague, then Islam. The pagan Vikings plundered much of Christianized Europe ( & elsewhere) while Christian Irish monks ( see: https://www.amazon.com/How-Irish-Sa...5418493#aw-udpv3-customer-reviews_feature_div ) helped maintain civilization.

Similar events probably would have occurred whether Christianity existed or not ( John 18:36-38).

We weren't discussing the kitchen sink. Just doctrines of restoration vs damnation. We left off at discussing the Fifth Ecumenical Council of 553 and the anathemas of Origen.
 
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prophecy_uk

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How about God on hell..


Luke 10:12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
 
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Ceallaigh

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How about God on hell..


Luke 10:12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

Hell in verse 15 is the realm of the dead. Comparable to Acts 2:28 - Psalm 16:10
 
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prophecy_uk

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MMXX "Hell in verse 15 is the realm of the dead. Comparable to Acts 2:28 - Psalm 16:10"




Acts 2, and David rested in hope, because it was prevented that David would see corruption, as Christ saw no corruption, but David said, the ways of life ( eternal) were made known, ( the salvation of Christ was to come to earth ) and David spoke of the ressurection of Christ, how no corruption was seen, for Christ, which stops David seeing corruption, ( by the resurrection of Christ which makes known to us the ways of life)


Now we are delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.....



Acts 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.





Here is the difference for you, the exalted ones of course are THRUST DOWN TO HELL.

LUCIFER IS BROUGHT DOWN TO HELL, HELL WAS MOVED TO MEET HIM, BY THE SAME POMP AND THE SAME EXALTATION, NOW THEY ALL ARE BROUGHT DOWN TO THE SID O THE PIT..



Luke 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.



The worms feed on the greatest of living, to the smallest, death feeds on them all, but the Psalms show the redeeming of the soul ( prevented from hell) but the rich bless themselves and go to where they shall never see light again, they are in self honour and understand not ( the ways of life) and shall perish..



Psalm 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.
15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.
16 Be not thou afraid when one is made rich, when the glory of his house is increased;
17 For when he dieth he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him.
18 Though while he lived he blessed his soul: and men will praise thee, when thou doest well to thyself.
19 He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light.
20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.
 
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Saint Steven

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How about God on hell..


Luke 10:12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
Ezekiel 16:53
“‘However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,
 
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prophecy_uk

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Yes Israel was lifted in pride, and anyone lifted in pride falls into the condemnation of the devil ( to hell and destruction)..


Daniel 5:20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him:

1 Timothy 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.



Now see again Ezekiel 16, Israel did so bad, they made Sodom look better.

God said, when Sodom would return to their former estate ( from everlasting destruction by the wrath of the Lord) then Israel would return to their former estate ( which is never)..


Ezekiel 16:52 Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.
53 When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:
54 That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.
55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.
 
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prophecy_uk

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God will punish Israel for that pride and wickedness.

But then, made the covenant, which puts the Lords fear into us by giving us His Spirit and a new soft heart, and takes out the stony heart ( of the pride of satan) and the mouth is never opened up ( in pride and boasting) ever again because of shame now..



Ezekiel 16:59 For thus saith the Lord God; I will even deal with thee as thou hast done, which hast despised the oath in breaking the covenant.
60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.
61 Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.
62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord:
63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord God.
 
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Lazarus Short

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God said, when Sodom would return to their former estate ( from everlasting destruction by the wrath of the Lord) then Israel would return to their former estate ( which is never)..

Do you really mean "never" when God clearly says He will return Israel to its former state? Do you make a habit of quoting your God and contradicting Him?? Oi.
 
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prophecy_uk

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Lazarus: "Do you really mean "never" when God clearly says He will return Israel to its former state? Do you make a habit of quoting your God and contradicting Him?? Oi."


God has not returned Israel to its former state, that is why Jesus testifies these things to Israel:


Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
 
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