One Reason to Reject Amill Doctrine

Spiritual Jew

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Psalm 82, it's about future judgement of the powers and principalities.
We all know that they will eventually be cast into the lake of fire, but that isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about them being cast out of the third heaven.

rest of your post is just more square peg in round hole.
Which you are unable to show with scripture, which is why you just resort to making this baseless claim.

Do you have any thoughts on what I said in post #576? I'd love to see how you interpret 2 Peter 3 as written.
 
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Jamdoc

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We all know that they will eventually be cast into the lake of fire, but that isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about them being cast out of the third heaven.

Which you are unable to show with scripture, which is why you just resort to making this baseless claim.

Do you have any thoughts on what I said in post #576? I'd love to see how you interpret 2 Peter 3 as written.

Psalm 82 refers to them as the gods.
a council of them
it backs up Ephesians 6:12 that these are wicked Angels that are at the moment, in charge of the Earth
In Daniel 10 did you think Gabriel was talking about a human Prince of Persia that he needed Michael's help with and withstood him for 3 weeks?

as to 2 Peter 3, remember, I interpret Christ's second coming to not be an instantaneous event but a series of events. I believe every event after the 6th seal is "the second coming" even though they take months and years (even over 1000 years) later.

So after the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom, in Revelation 20:9, that last rebellion is consumed by fire from heaven, and we're talking billions of people.
That is where I see 2 Peter 3's destruction by fire taking place, at the end of the Millennium, which I still consider the 2nd coming.

If the first coming was Jesus being born, growing up, having an earthly ministry after the age of 30, dying, being buried and resurrected, spending 40 days with His disciples, and then ascending to heaven... then the second coming can involve a lot of events too.
Sometimes old testament prophets globbed together first and second coming prophecies which confused even the Apostles, who thought Jesus was going to fulfill the second coming prophecies right then and there.
similarly you glob all the second comping prophecies into a single day, and when details spell out that there's a longer period of time involved in the second coming, you hand wave it away and cut off the corners of the square peg to make it fit into the "literal 24 hour day of the Lord" round hole.

as I have pointed out to you before, Isaiah 34:8 and Isaiah 63:4 shows you that the "day of the Lord" is a figurative amount of time but you'd rather be literal on that and make detailed specific times to be figurative instead.

so that is how I describe your interpretation... square peg in a round hole.
Because it all revolves around cutting out details to force a fit into a 24 hour day of the Lord doctrine.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Psalm 82 refers to them as the gods.
a council of them
it backs up Ephesians 6:12 that these are wicked Angels that are at the moment, in charge of the Earth
In Daniel 10 did you think Gabriel was talking about a human Prince of Persia that he needed Michael's help with and withstood him for 3 weeks?
None of this has anything to do with anything that I was talking about which had to do with the timing of Satan and his angels being cast out of the third heaven.

as to 2 Peter 3, remember, I interpret Christ's second coming to not be an instantaneous event but a series of events. I believe every event after the 6th seal is "the second coming" even though they take months and years (even over 1000 years) later.
I'm just asking you to interpret 2 Peter 3 as written, not anything else. You say you interpret scripture as written and Amils don't, so show me how you interpret 2 Peter 3, as written.

So after the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom, in Revelation 20:9, that last rebellion is consumed by fire from heaven, and we're talking billions of people.
That is where I see 2 Peter 3's destruction by fire taking place, at the end of the Millennium, which I still consider the 2nd coming.
I find this explanation to be completely unreasonable and definitely not a case of interpreting 2 Peter 3 as written. To consider a time that would occur 1000+ years after Jesus returns as still being the second coming is very farfetched and not something I would think anyone else in the world would agree with you about.

If the first coming was Jesus being born, growing up, having an earthly ministry after the age of 30, dying, being buried and resurrected, spending 40 days with His disciples, and then ascending to heaven... then the second coming can involve a lot of events too.
Spanning 1000+ years? Really? Come on.

Sometimes old testament prophets globbed together first and second coming prophecies which confused even the Apostles, who thought Jesus was going to fulfill the second coming prophecies right then and there.
similarly you glob all the second comping prophecies into a single day, and when details spell out that there's a longer period of time involved in the second coming, you hand wave it away and cut off the corners of the square peg to make it fit into the "literal 24 hour day of the Lord" round hole.
I'm not saying nothing at all happens prior to the actual day He returns. I'm talking about what will happen on the actual day He returns because that is what 2nd Peter 3 is about (other than mentioning that scoffers would be scoffing in the last days up until His return).

as I have pointed out to you before, Isaiah 34:8 and Isaiah 63:4 shows you that the "day of the Lord" is a figurative amount of time but you'd rather be literal on that and make detailed specific times to be figurative instead.
What both Paul (in 1 Thess 5:2-3) and Peter (in 2 Peter 3:10-13) indicate is that the day of the Lord will come suddenly (like a thief in the night) bringing destruction by fire and the scope of the destruction will be such that unbelievers "shall not escape". Please explain to me how your understanding of the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night bringing sudden destruction from which no one can escape.

so that is how I describe your interpretation... square peg in a round hole.
Because it all revolves around cutting out details to force a fit into a 24 hour day of the Lord doctrine.
I interpret 2 Peter 3 as written. This was in response to your false claim that Amils don't interpret scripture as written. So, I'm asking you to show me how you interpret 2 Peter 3 as written just like I have already done. Am I asking too much of you?
 
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Douggg

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Do you agree that the result of Satan being cast out of heaven in Revelation 12 means he can't accuse believers anymore?
Satan does not have free roam of the third heaven, ever since iniquity was found in him. He can only go there if summoned by God to appear before God.

Satan still accuses believers, but it is futile when he accuses believers, because God has declared believers not guilty by the blood of Jesus.

Satan has been accusing the Jews of their sins for the past 2000 years, and still is. Until they turn to Jesus at the beginning of the great tribulation.

In the near future, when the 7th angel sounds and Satan and his angels are cast down from the second heaven and restricted to earth - it will be the first step in finishing the three point mystery of God. Which God will destroy Satan and his angels, and their kingdom of Babylon the Great.

Then, when Satan is cast down, restricted to earth, Satan will no longer appear before God to accuse anyone.

You have claimed that the angels in Jude 1:6 in chains held in darkness, include Satan. Yet you say Satan is still in the third heaven.

______________________________________________________________

The problem for the Amil view though is that Satan is not in chains, not in the bottomless pit. The entire Amil position regarding the millennium falls on that one single point.
 
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keras

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Okay but Jesus gives no signs of anything after the 6th seal.
But He does! Revelation 1:1 This is the revelation of Jesus Christ.....

Revelation is the only Book that describes the end of this age, the Millennium reign of Jesus and then; Eternity.
The rest of the Bible does have prophecies about it all, but not in the correct sequence.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Satan does not have free roam of the third heaven, ever since iniquity was found in him. He can only go there if summoned by God to appear before God.

Satan still accuses believers, but it is futile when he accuses believers, because God has declared believers not guilty by the blood of Jesus.

Satan has been accusing the Jews of their sins for the past 2000 years, and still is. Until they turn to Jesus at the beginning of the great tribulation.

In the near future, when the 7th angel sounds and Satan and his angels are cast down from the second heaven and restricted to earth - it will be the first step in finishing the three point mystery of God. Which God will destroy Satan and his angels, and their kingdom of Babylon the Great.

Then, when Satan is cast down, restricted to earth, Satan will no longer appear before God to accuse anyone.

You have claimed that the angels in Jude 1:6 in chains held in darkness, include Satan. Yet you say Satan is still in the third heaven.

______________________________________________________________

The problem for the Amil view though is that Satan is not in chains, not in the bottomless pit. The entire Amil position regarding the millennium falls on that one single point.

Revelation 20 actually takes us back to the first resurrection - where Jesus conquered, sin, death, Hades and Satan. It shows the spiritual binding of Satan in order to enlighten the Gentiles. When Christ bound Satan’s kingdom through His life, death and resurrection then the kingdom of darkness was bound. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. The bruising of the head of the beast (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14) correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan 2,000 years ago through the earthly ministry of Christ (Genesis 3:15). They correspond with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan during the millennial period. These are figurative metaphors describing the impairment of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Just before the second coming, Satan gets a little season to wreak havoc on the Church. When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season. Then comes the end! But Christ comes in majestic and eternal glory to overthrow the kingdom of darkness forever. The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic second coming (Isaiah 26:19-27:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10).

What arrives at the second coming is the eternal state - perfection. The earth will be finally and wholly purged of the bondage of corruption, not as Premils argue: we are plagued with another age like ours full of sin and sinners, crying and dying, Satan and his demons. This alleged future Premil millennial kingdom ends with the wicked overrunning the age to come and surrounding Christ in all His glory and the glorified saints.
 
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Douggg

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2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel.
The gospel is not allowed to be preached in North Korea. Bibles are not allowed into Saudi Arabia. At the root of that evil is Satan.

The particular angels in Jude1:6 are in everlasting chains, reserved in darkness, because they kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation. Which simply means that habitated on earth with human women, in attempt to pervert the human race, resulting in the giants.

Satan is not included with those angels, and is not in chains, nor in the bottomless pit.

The entire Amil position regarding the millennium falls on that one single point.

.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The gospel is not allowed to be preached in North Korea. Bibles are not allowed into Saudi Arabia. At the root of that evil is Satan.

The particular angels in Jude1:6 are in everlasting chains, reserved in darkness, because they kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation. Which simply means that habituated on earth with human women, in attempt to pervert the human race, resulting in the giants.

Satan is not included with those angels, and is not in chains, nor in the bottomless pit.

The entire Amil position regarding the millennium falls on that one single point.

.

Who says Satan is not amongst those angels in chains? You want to divide up the kingdom of darkness when they, just like the kingdom of God, are a collective whole. Premils wrongly divide up the fate of Satan, his demons and the beast into an array of disjointed and unconnected events, which are in truth the same overall ongoing experience. This is absurd because their fortune is carefully and inextricably tied together by association, interdependence and divine order. When Scripture speaks about Satan he is the representative head of the whole kingdom of darkness. When Satan was bound, the kingdom of darkness was bound (including the beast and every demon). When Satan is released prior to the second coming so also is the whole kingdom of darkness (including the beast and every demon). When the Bible says “resist the devil, and he will flee from you” this is not limited to Satan, it is talking about the whole demonic realm.

All we have to do, is examine the fate of each in Scripture and you will quickly see a remarkable correlation.

What happens at the end of the millennium mirrors what other Scripture tells us happens at the end of our age. There is an intense persecution at the end. Christ comes to judge as it concludes. You would need to rip more than Revelation 20 out of the Bible for it to contradict other Scripture. There is much Scripture that teaches an end-time falling away and tribulation before Christ comes. Revelation 20 fits that perfectly. Satan's season mirrors 2 Thessalonians 2 and the release of the mystery of iniquity before Jesus comes. It also mirrors the release of the beast in order to wreak havoc before Christ comes. As the ESV states: “the mystery of lawlessness is …the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish.”

The end of the millennium and Satan's "little season" corresponds with the end time persecution spoke elsewhere in Revelation and in other Scripture orchestrated by antichrist/the beast (described as lasting 3 1/2 years). The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.
 
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Douggg

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Who says Satan is not amongst those angels in chains? You want to divide up the kingdom of darkness when they, just like the kingdom of God, are a collective whole.
Jude 1:6 doesn't say "kingdom of darkness".
 
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Douggg

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The end of the millennium and Satan's "little season" corresponds with the end time persecution spoke elsewhere in Revelation and in other Scripture orchestrated by antichrist/the beast (described as lasting 3 1/2 years). The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.
Here is what I conclude about Amil's irrational thinking of Satan is in chains, but Satan is in the third heaven, and walks about seeking who he can devour....

Amil came out of Covenant theology - which Covenant theology, itself, originating in England at the time of the reformers.

Then when dispensationalism arose, and became very popular in America, the teachings of Covenant theology teachings on Israel and the millennium were challenged. That conflict between Covenant theology and dispensationalism we see being played out in this forum (my personal observation).

Covenant theology > Amil and the church replacing Israel.
Dispensationalism > Pre-mil and the church and Israel separate entities.

It seems to me, that Covenant theology as the foundation of the Anglican church has a profound influence in Australia and New Zealand - as people from England settled in those lands, imo.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Here is what I conclude about Amil's irrational thinking of Satan is in chains, but Satan is in the third heaven, and walks about seeking who he can devour....

Amil came out of Covenant theology - which Covenant theology, itself, originating in England at the time of the reformers.

Then when dispensationalism arose, and is very popular in America, the teachings of Covenant theology teachings on Israel and the millennium were challenged. That conflict between Covenant theology and dispensationalism we see being played out in this forum (my personal observation).

Covenant theology > Amil and the church replacing Israel.
Dispensationalism > Pre-mil and the church and Israel separate entities.

It seems to me, that Covenant theology as the foundation of the Anglican church has a profound influence in Australia and New Zealand - as people from England settled in those lands, imo.

Not so. It came from the scriptural text. You have no rebuttal for it. You have zero corroboration for every single tenet of Premil. You also have to duck around every single climactic passage in Scripture and insert 1000 years where it does not belong. That is why Premil should be rejected by every Bible-believing Christian.
 
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Douggg

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Not so. It came from the scriptural text. You have no rebuttal for it. You have zero corroboration for every single tenet of Premil.
I have charts of end times events, collaborating the scriptures, and you don't.

upload_2021-9-18_16-51-55.jpeg
 
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sovereigngrace

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I have charts of end times events, collaborating the scriptures, and you don't.

View attachment 306030

I totally reject your charts. They have been debunked numerous times. The Scriptures refute your misinterpretation and misapplication of the sacred text.
 
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Douggg

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I totally reject your charts. They have been debunked numerous times. The Scriptures refute your misinterpretation and misapplication of the sacred text.
I have charts to reject, but you don't.
 
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Douggg

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Once you have lost the discussion, you typically present your charts as your last resource. Well, that is not the way truth works.
You don't have any charts collaborating the scriptures on a timeline.

Who is the star falling from heaven in Revelation 9:1?

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Look at my chart for the answer... somebody has a key in their hand.

upload_2021-9-18_17-23-55.jpeg
 
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sovereigngrace

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You don't have any charts collaborating the scriptures on a timeline.

Who is the star falling from heaven in Revelation 9:1?

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Look at my chart for the answer... somebody has a key in their hand.

View attachment 306033

I don't look at your charts any more. They are muddled up in my opinion. I look to the Word that rebuts your charts.

The question is: is it a fallen angel or is it an elect angel? This word pipto (Strong’s 4098) interpreted “fall” carries the idea of alighting or descending. It is derived from the Greek word petomai (Strong’s 4072) meaning ‘to fly’. This would certainly support the idea that we are looking at an angel. The Greek word pipto itself carries several meanings; the first of which we encounter is ‘to descend from a higher place to a lower’. All these interpretations are consistent with the picture of an angel descending from heaven to earth.

Revelation 9 proves that the abyss is the invisible spiritual restrained domain where demons operate now upon "earth."

Let us first establish that John is actually looking at "a star" in Revelation 9:1. That is what he identifies. He is seeing a symbolic vision. Whilst it is likely the star represents an angel the vision relates to an actual star. Because a star is inanimate, it is described as falling. Basically stars “fall” (Revelation 8.10; 9.1). Good angels on the other hand are said to “come down” (Revelation 10.1; 20.1). Whilst the same picture is been painted in both, one relates to a symbol (representing an angel) the other to a literal angel.

It is worth noting, Revelation 8:10-11 uses similar language to Revelation 9:1, saying, “there pipto (or) fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.”

This star/angel that descended from heaven seemed to be on a heavenly assignment to open-up the bottomless pit before the second coming. It would clearly be wrong to view this as a demonic being.
 
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Douggg

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sovereigngrace

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How can they operate on earth, if they are in the bottomless pit?

Because it is not a geographical place. It is a spiritual state. Read the text: "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit" (Rev 9:1).

The bottomless pit is only opened when the angel alights to earth. Simple!
 
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Jamdoc

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None of this has anything to do with anything that I was talking about which had to do with the timing of Satan and his angels being cast out of the third heaven.

It does because it shows that God gave dominion of the world to wicked angels after the fall of man, and until this judgement takes place, which I believe is during the second coming, not the first, because Paul talks about them in Ephesians 6:12

I'm just asking you to interpret 2 Peter 3 as written, not anything else. You say you interpret scripture as written and Amils don't, so show me how you interpret 2 Peter 3, as written.
I do, but because Revelation REVEALS events that happen, making sense of all previous prophetic scripture, it puts the pieces together, I use Revelation as a key to all other prophecy in the bible. I fit all prophetic scripture to that key. All the events take place over the course of the second coming. Where without revelation what you have is kind of a mess where people all try to fit a bunch of different events into a single day. Revelation actually shows it taking place over time. There are different characteristics of the events in Jesus' second coming, in one Jesus is in the clouds and people mourn (Zechariah 12, Matthew 24, Revelation 1:7, Revelation 6:12-17), in one Jesus is on the ground and His clothes are bloodstained and He's there for war and the wicked try to fight Him (Zechariah 14, Isaiah 63, Revelation 19), and in one the whole earth is consumed in fire (Zephaniah, 2 Peter 3, Revelation 20).
What you do is handwave away the details and differences, and chose one of those 3 to be the "true" second coming and allegorized everything else.
What I have done is interpreted all 3 of those events to happen, over the course of time, first appearing in the clouds, then leading a battle, and finally destroying the wicked all in fire.
It all happens as written, but they happen over time as Revelation gives us timing elements.

I find this explanation to be completely unreasonable and definitely not a case of interpreting 2 Peter 3 as written. To consider a time that would occur 1000+ years after Jesus returns as still being the second coming is very farfetched and not something I would think anyone else in the world would agree with you about.

Spanning 1000+ years? Really? Come on.

All pre wrath, and some post trib understand Jesus' second coming as a series of events rather than an instant nuke the earth.

Was Jesus ascension part of His first coming? It was over 30 years after He was born
if the first coming was multiple events over 30+ years, then the second coming is all the events from Him appearing in the clouds for the rapture, until.. eternity, He never leaves us again.
It's all the second coming.

I'm not saying nothing at all happens prior to the actual day He returns. I'm talking about what will happen on the actual day He returns because that is what 2nd Peter 3 is about (other than mentioning that scoffers would be scoffing in the last days up until His return).

What both Paul (in 1 Thess 5:2-3) and Peter (in 2 Peter 3:10-13) indicate is that the day of the Lord will come suddenly (like a thief in the night) bringing destruction by fire and the scope of the destruction will be such that unbelievers "shall not escape". Please explain to me how your understanding of the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night bringing sudden destruction from which no one can escape.

You talk about figurative language, yet you refuse to see a chunk of figurative language as being figurative language.
You have latched onto one bit of figurative language to take literally (Day of the Lord) and then tried to shoehorn everything else into that single 24 hour day.
When Isaiah 34 and 63 clearly teach that it is "the day of the Lord" that is figurative.

I interpret 2 Peter 3 as written. This was in response to your false claim that Amils don't interpret scripture as written. So, I'm asking you to show me how you interpret 2 Peter 3 as written just like I have already done. Am I asking too much of you?
Square peg, round hole.
 
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