Does going against John Calvin mean going against God?

Mark Quayle said:

When I see out of the corner of my eye a snake, frog or a mouse moving, I might have an automatic reaction before good sense and 'freewill' takes over.

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Mmhmm but as a Calvinist, you don’t believe in libertarian freewill. If you do believe in libertarian freewill, meaning the ability to do otherwise in any given situation, then you’re not a textbook Calvinist. At best, while maintaining the label of Calvinist, you could house your beliefs about freedom in compatiblism. Compatiblism is the belief that redefines the classical understanding and experience of freewill into “acting in line with ones nature,” not as the ability to do otherwise (the actual definition and what you and I experience everyday.)

The chances are you’re a compatibilist and not a believer in libertarian freewill.

Mark Quayle said:

"God does what he does, not as humans choose to do, but by his very nature. He needn't consider and choose, but for him, to choose is to do, just as to know is to do."

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Mmhmm mmhmm, that’s compatiblism and would include the belief that God doesn’t possess libertarian freedom within himself.

Mark Quayle said:

Wrong. Calvinism doesn't believe God's offer is "cynical". It is genuine.

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Of course the Calvinist couldn’t couch their language in that way, rather my point about Calvinistic beliefs was the one I’d stated more than once in the same message, namely that sinners can’t respond to the gospel or God or hold any love for him, not until he first loves them.

Calvinists do insist that the offer is genuine but they can’t share why it’s genuine in plain English. Again they would insist we’re lost in the constraints of language.

As an example try this. Christs sacrificial death upon the cross was only for the elect, that’s the L of the TULIP, and since that sacrifice was only for a select group there’s no chance of the subsequent Holy Spirit and new life residing in anyone but the elect.

Yet Calvinists are told by God to offer the free gift of life through the death of Christ to the whole world. That’s a cynical offer since for many of the people who are being offered that gift, there’s nothing there for them.

Mark Quayle said:

What?? God believes in someone??

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Sure. God can believe in the potential of someone, for example. By believe in I mean to trust in. Although it’s telling you want to dig into the more ambiguous point of the two rather than dipping into my other more obvious point about love. If someone offered me a ride to work in their car I could either believe in them when they show they’re good intentioned, or I could disbelieve.

Mark Quayle said:

And you say Calvinism believes this?

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In that section I was pointing out that Calvinists believe that regeneration proceeds faith. So yes I think that’s very safe to insist upon.

Mark Quayle said:

I.e. you look at this all backwards, as do all Arminians.

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I’m not an Arminian. I disagree with their views on the need for prevenient grace amidst other things.

Mark Quayle said:

You say according to Calvinism he hated them before they existed. Just when do you think they existed?

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Well, according to many Calvinists God hates sinners. That’s the point. God doesn’t change and he’s always had a total and complete knowledge of the sinner that he hates. He knew them before their creation and hated them. When do I think they existed? At the moment of conception.

Mark Quayle said:

Do you think Calvinism teaches God stewed in his hatred for these his enemies for eons?

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Sadly Calvinists believe God will stew in his hatred for an eternity going forward, since sinners will burn in fire forever going forward. Yet it’s hard for you to believe he’s stewed in the past.

Mark Quayle said:

the question never even comes up!

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While it’s true that Calvinists have an incredible capacity for double think and retarding the consequences of their views, these questions do come up both inside and outside of the camp in philosophy and religious contexts.

Mark Quayle said:

No. It is not denied anyone. If they will ("whosoever will, may come") the mercy is there, they may receive it.

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Yes but that’s part of the whole disingenuous Calvinist construct. “whosoever will may come!” But you can’t even want to come unless God wants you first. It’s not an open invitation as we might think at first glance, while the global nature of the invitation leaves a bad taste in everyone’s mouth when we discover the lack of provision for the sinner.

Mark Quayle said:

Even Arminianism rejects Pelagian doctrine —that man is capable of "responding positively to God" quite alone from the work of God.

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Unfortunately we don’t really know much of what Pelagius believed, his writings were preserved only in the form that his detractors wrote. You can imagine how badly my views might be preserved by yourself or vice versa.

Mark Quayle said:

Are you Pelagian, not even needing "prevenient grace", to bring one's corrupt will to need Christ?

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I’m not. Even so far as the detractors of Pelagius wrote, I don’t agree that man is the first responder or that they can get right without an initial step from God. In short I think God is seeking man and mankind can either respond positively or negatively to Gods first contact.

My soteriology views are nearer to a contemporary speaker like Dr. Leighton Flower.

Mark Quayle said:

"Punt"? You pose a strawman and then claim that 'the big name Calvinists' only reply to your strawman is to punt towards mystery?

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Sure. Dr. James White, “flattening the arguments out” (code for mystery,) “two parallel lines meeting in eternity,” antimony. These are all very popular Calvinistic style talking points that result in incoherent types of thought and double think. It’s a punk to mystery.

Mark Quayle said:

I can see them appealing to mystery, since you don't seem to understand anything else they say, or even to pay attention to their Biblical precepts and thinking, or to try to follow their logic.

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We can all follow a circle my friend.

You do realize you are speaking nothing of the words that give us eternal life, and all the words that give death, and praise to ourselves, our own words and ideas?

Your theology is in your opinion, and no in anything to do with God/Gods word?

So the answer to the thread now is, the ones who support, or do not support Calvin, do the same as him, to talk words, of their own and pretense belief in Christ.


1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Romans 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

Mark Quayle said:

You say according to Calvinism he hated them before they existed. Just when do you think they existed? Do you think Calvinism teaches God stewed in his hatred for these his enemies for eons? —the question never even comes up!

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This might be a helpful afterthought, Mark. I know people to this day who hate their father, and he’s been dead and buried for decades now. They hate what they remember or what they experienced, either way there’s real hatred there of the man. Their father isn’t with us in the conventional sense, but just the knowledge is enough to hate him.

As Christians I’m happy many of us are above that kind of feeling, but it’s still very present in day to day life. So yes, according to many Calvinists God hates sinners and he’s always hated those sinners. He’s an unchanging God and he’s created those sinners for the day of destruction, whether or not a mans here or elsewhere God can hate him (at least according to many Calvinists.)

It’s not just a logical consequence of 5 point Calvinism, it’s what many people who believe in Calvinism say.

Cormack said:

Yes but that’s part of the whole disingenuous Calvinist construct. “whosoever will may come!” But you can’t even want to come unless God wants you first.

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Another great example of the deceptive language used in Calvanism. "Whoever wills to come to God may come", but the bit we keep quite about is that you only have that will if God decides to give it to you in the first place, and he only does if you're one of the Elect. It's hard to see through it but once you know the amazingly simple code, the illusion shatters, similar to what happens when you see how a conjuring trick is done.

Saint Steven said:

Seemed as if you were purposely setting me up to make the point. - lol
Thanks. Hard to resist.

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No problem. Sommathat irresistible grace that's always on the tip of the tongue.

MMXX said:

In this video John MacArthur reads objections to Calvinism's doctrine of predestination, and says the comments go against the sovereignty of God. It sounded more to me that the comments went against John Cavin's doctrine. Or should both considered one and the same?

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Nope. They're different. And I have no problem in just seeing John Calvin as one voice among many over the past 2,000 since the Apostles who have attempted to re-interpret it 'all' for us.

Hmm said:

It's hard to see through it but once you know the amazingly simple code, the illusion shatters, similar to what happens when you see how a conjuring trick is done.

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Yeah pretty much. I mean it certainly looks like he’s taking off his index finger, but there’s always a hint of doubt when the blood won’t flow.

That’s what Calvinism is, it’s a lot of bloodless truths that come with no heart, no soul and no Holy Spirit.

That’s just my view. I could be mistaken. If Calvinism makes anyone reading feel very loved and very strong in the Lord, I’m happy for you.

I wonder if the days came that people prefer their own words, to Gods word..


1 Timothy 4:I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


How is it different and not hypocritical, questioning/discussing of Calvin is for or against God, while you show yourselves not being for God at the same exact moment, it is total irony fulfilled.

Cormack said:

If Calvinism makes anyone reading feel very loved and very strong in the Lord, I’m happy for you.

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I would say so too although I don't see how it's possible. Even a fully paid up Calvanist has no way of knowing whether they are one of the elect or not until they die (from their perspective), let alone all their loved ones.

You do know the end comes by cares of this life, and conversations not about Christ ?



Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Hmm said:

Even a fully paid up Calvanist has no way of knowing whether they are one of the elect or not

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True. I remember the last time I wrote to Mark, he didn’t know if he was saved or not, only taking comfort in the idea that God could have use for him. That’s a very admirable desire and I hope it happens.

Calvinists can’t know and some gentle encouragement brings that deficiency in the theology up to the surface.

Their beliefs even now could be the product of their fallen state, that’s what inability does to them.

prophecy_uk said:

You do know the end comes by cares of this life, and conversations not about Christ ?

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Christ cared about what happens in this life which is why he spent most of the time healing people and telling us to house the homeless and befriend the prisoner and widow. He didn't tell us to sit around drinking coffee and pontificating or posting about him.

^^^^ O lord have mercy, don’t take away my pontificating There’d be no more CF left…

Cormack said:

I remember the last time I wrote to Mark, he didn’t know if he was saved or not, only taking comfort in the idea that God could have use for him.

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It seems no different than idolising your boss when he's put you on a zero hours contract.

Saint Steven said:

That is NOT the definition of the word "acknowledge" in this scripture.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

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Operating by your use of that verse to the afterlife, does the Devil also get a second chance?

Saint Steven said:

Nope. The regeneration will come first. Thus fitting your requirement. Imagine that. - lol

The sequence of verses are spiritual principles that apply no matter which side of the grave you are on. Did you expect that all the principles of spiritual life would vanish in the afterlife?

The condemnation is to be regenerated. Mercy is always a choice in sentencing. Is God merciless, or merciful? (mercy-less or mercy-full) I'll go with the latter.

And again, the acknowledgement that Jesus is Lord is the outcome of regeneration.

Besides, salvation is something God does, not something we do. Everyone is already saved, but not everyone has "realized" it yet. Salvation is an act of God, not an act of humankind. It is by grace that you HAVE BEEN saved. This is NOT of yourselves, but is the GIFT of God. (so none can boast)

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Yet, you say that what is taught in scripture, concerning regeneration, also applies to the 'lost' after this temporal life, without any other indication in Scripture that it is so, by only your logical extrapolation of God's nature (love and mercy —without mention of justice and anger).

Do you believe, like most Universalists, that the punishment in the Lake of Fire is also temporal, or at least, not lethal and only a purification to ready them for Heaven, or do they remain "outside the gates, but alive" after the LOF, or do they escape the LOF and remain "outside the gates, but alive" or what?

Here is some preaching of the cross, is it foolishness to you guys, as you seem to not want to know..



1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Cormack said:

^^^^ O lord have mercy, don’t take away my pontificating There’d be no more CF left…

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I thought that's why they're called pontiffs but perhaps I've got that wrong!

prophecy_uk said:

Here is some preaching of the cross, is it foolishness to you guys, as you seem to not want to know..

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I'm really not sure what your point is. Is saying God loves all, in contrast to the Calvanist proposition that he loves some, not preaching the cross? Calvanists believe that Christ's death on the cross only atoned for the sins of the Elect (the L (Limited Atonement) in TULIP). Is that preaching the cross?

A message for the guys who prefer to talk about anyone other than Christ, Calvin Arminium, etc...



Jeremiah 7:25 Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them:
26 Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.
27 Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee.
28 But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the Lord their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.