John's Gospel and the words "one essence with God the Father"

KisKatte

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Halo there,

I had once a book with John's Gospel in German language and there were standing approximately the words "Jesus/Me one essence with God the Father" or one being with God the Father. I maked a present out of it for a muslim friend.

I can not find in my new Testament these clear words anymore. Does somebody know where this is written? It is VERY important for me. Because I was to silly to understand that Jesus is God. God himself explained it to me in a way that would surely be considered heretic by the orthodox church. I need scripture for my exchange with other believers or non-believers. I just need evidence in the scripture. Otherwise I would always have to say that God talked to me, and to be sincere, whom of you would believe that???? Maybe not every translation has these words in there?
 

KisKatte

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God explained to me that Jesus is a "body" He controlled and that God does not suffer and that Jesus was so not suffering on the cross, but this would not matter because God knows anyway our sufferings and that it only is explained by the church unclearly because that more people can believe in Jesus and be saved if it is unclear if Jesus is Human or God. I do not know wich heresy this is again, condemned by the church. I can not help myself, I know this was God's explanation. And so I really need this scripture thing. It seems to me that all the people I meet personally in the orthodox church also know about Jesus being God and not suffering on the cross. But this seems to be a secret under enlightened people! I need the scripture thing.
 
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Jeshu

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Halo there,

I had once a book with John's Gospel in German language and there were standing approximately the words "Jesus/Me one essence with God the Father" or one being with God the Father. I maked a present out of it for a muslim friend.

I can not find in my new Testament these clear words anymore. Does somebody know where this is written? It is VERY important for me. Because I was to silly to understand that Jesus is God. God himself explained it to me in a way that would surely be considered heretic by the orthodox church. I need scripture for my exchange with other believers or non-believers. I just need evidence in the scripture. Otherwise I would always have to say that God talked to me, and to be sincere, whom of you would believe that???? Maybe not every translation has these words in there?

This Scripture here might help.
Colossians 1:15-20
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
 
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buzuxi02

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God explained to me that Jesus is a "body" He controlled and that God does not suffer and that Jesus was so not suffering on the cross, but this would not matter because God knows anyway our sufferings and that it only is explained by the church unclearly because that more people can believe in Jesus and be saved if it is unclear if Jesus is Human or God. I do not know wich heresy this is again, condemned by the church. I can not help myself, I know this was God's explanation. And so I really need this scripture thing. It seems to me that all the people I meet personally in the orthodox church also know about Jesus being God and not suffering on the cross. But this seems to be a secret under enlightened people! I need the scripture thing.
I think you should go back and review the basics. Even when the bible says something it should be understood the way the contemporaries always understood it.
Paul makes clear that he received his gospel directly from God and yet still went to the apostles to verify that it conforms with their gospel-( Galatians 2:2)
John 10:30 has traditionally been interpreted since the beginning to mean Jesus is one in essence with His Father.
And this view is verified in John 5:17-18 that the viewpoint implies one of true equality :

17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God..."

Jesus DID suffer on the cross because it was not the divine nature alone that was crucified, which is impossible, both to crucify the divine essence and/or to seperate it from Christ. But the one and same Christ was crucified, who is one Person united of two natures in the Child of Mary.
 
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prodromos

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In Matthew 4:1-2 Jesus can clearly suffer.

Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And he fasted forty days and forty nights, and afterward he was hungry.​
 
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ArmyMatt

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Jesus DID suffer on the cross because it was not the divine nature alone that was crucified, which is impossible, both to crucify the divine essence and/or to seperate it from Christ. But the one and same Christ was crucified, who is one Person united of two natures in the Child of Mary.

the Theopaschite formula, affirmed at the 5th Ecumenical Council
 
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ArmyMatt

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In Matthew 4:1-2 Jesus can clearly suffer.

Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And he fasted forty days and forty nights, and afterward he was hungry.​

John 19:28
John 4:6
 
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Andrei D

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the Theopaschite formula, affirmed at the 5th Ecumenical Council

It appears that St. Eufimia whose feast we celebrate today helped reveal the true teaching about the nature of Christ at the Council of Chalcedon. I will say I didn't recall that.
Lives of all saints commemorated on September 16 - Orthodox Church in America (oca.org)

It doesn't add much to the discussion and I know Chalcedon really repudiated the Eutychian doctrine of monophysitism, but in doing so, it RE-affirmed the "full humanity and full divinity" of Christ. i just found this very beautiful and it goes to show the continuity of this doctrine - it wasn't suddenly made up at Constantinople II.

Let's pray to St. Eufimia to help us keep to the teachings of the Church.
 
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ArmyMatt

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It appears that St. Eufimia whose feast we celebrate today helped reveal the true teaching about the nature of Christ at the Council of Chalcedon. I will say I didn't recall that.
Lives of all saints commemorated on September 16 - Orthodox Church in America (oca.org)

It doesn't add much to the discussion and I know Chalcedon really repudiated the Eutychian doctrine of monophysitism, but in doing so, it RE-affirmed the "full humanity and full divinity" of Christ. i just found this very beautiful and it goes to show the continuity of this doctrine - it wasn't suddenly made up at Constantinople II.

Let's pray to St. Eufimia to help us keep to the teachings of the Church.

and while it's more subtle, the Theopaschite formula is also affirmed at Chalcedon
 
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KisKatte

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For me Jesus is only in human nature figuratively, as he had a meaning ment appearing to US in human nature. And showing us the right way of life. So we can follow. Any other reason would be unlogical. I prefer to stay logic. God can not mix with human nature. Not really. He had a body He controlled and appeared to us and showed us His prayers, emotions and temptations but this was only a "show" for us, for us to follow to see an example. God can not REALLY mix with human nature. For me Jesus is God clearly. And it seems to be a secret between orthodox enlightened people. I would have never understood Jesus is God if God would not have explained it to me LIKE THIS. And so for me again it is pure politics to mix up Human Nature with God's nature to make it unclear so that everybody can believe in Jesus even the ones who do not believe God would ever come to earth in this way.... uff.... again I am a heretic. I am little bit angry with God now!
 
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KisKatte

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Okay but it is never anywhere explained what it means that Jesus God became human being..... there should not be a human soul inside Jesus suffering on the cross. That is illogical. God does not need to suffer He knows our sufferings anyway.... So it is more figuratively, God is always happy. :). So there is a body with emotions and a bodily soul inside Jesus God but not real human soul. Otherwise, where would this human soul be now? :).
 
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Lukaris

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okay then I am still little heretic :). I do not believe there is a human soul inside Jesus because this human sould would have its own existance... would be a pure human being.

Take a look at Isaiah 53 which is the prophecy of our Lord’s passion among other things. I believe during Holy Week we read Isaiah 52:12-14 & then all of Isaiah 53.
 
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buzuxi02

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For me Jesus is only in human nature figuratively, as he had a meaning ment appearing to US in human nature. And showing us the right way of life. So we can follow. Any other reason would be unlogical. I prefer to stay logic. God can not mix with human nature. Not really. He had a body He controlled and appeared to us and showed us His prayers, emotions and temptations but this was only a "show" for us, for us to follow to see an example. God can not REALLY mix with human nature. For me Jesus is God clearly. And it seems to be a secret between orthodox enlightened people. I would have never understood Jesus is God if God would not have explained it to me LIKE THIS. And so for me again it is pure politics to mix up Human Nature with God's nature to make it unclear so that everybody can believe in Jesus even the ones who do not believe God would ever come to earth in this way.... uff.... again I am a heretic. I am little bit angry with God now!

We know the divine cannot mix with the human nature. A nature is not a concrete subsistence, the hypostasis (person) is. A true hypostatic union occured. God the Son assumed humanity with human flesh and a rational soul and made it his very own. The definition of Chalcedony clarifies:

..."Acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten ....., recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ... "
 
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KisKatte

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Thanks a lot. By this it is not clarified if I am a heretic or not. What does mean "like us in all respects" and so on. If Jesus had a human soul this soul would be alife like a human person.... it would be a separated human person. Can you follow me? It would be another human being. If by Jesus having humanity is ment, body, emotions, rationality, brain, soul under control of God than this would be a different thing. With these sentences nothing is clarified how it really is. Becaus how does this function? If Jesus brain for example would have the godly nature and His heart the flesh and soul of a human it would still mean the following: There would still not be a TRUE human soul in Jesus! And this is my point.
 
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