Cessationist view on books collating modern-day miracle reports?

TruthSeek3r · Sep 17, 2021

By books collating modern-day miracle reports I concretely mean Lee Strobel's book The Case for Miracles: A Journalist Investigates Evidence for the Supernatural (amazon link) and Craig S. Keener's book Miracles : 2 Volumes: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts (amazon link). I'm copying & pasting the prefaces below:

Lee Strobel's book's preface:

New York Times bestselling author Lee Strobel trains his investigative sights on the hot-button question: is it really credible to believe God intervenes supernaturally in people's lives today?

This provocative book starts with an unlikely interview in which America's foremost skeptic builds a seemingly persuasive case against the miraculous. But then Strobel travels the country to quiz scholars to see whether they can offer solid answers to atheist objections. Along the way, he encounters astounding accounts of healings and other phenomena that simply cannot be explained away by naturalistic causes. The book features the results of exclusive new scientific polling that shows miracle accounts are much more common than people think.

What's more, Strobel delves into the most controversial question of all: what about miracles that don't happen? If God can intervene in the world, why doesn't he do it more often to relieve suffering? Many American Christians are embarrassed by the supernatural, not wanting to look odd or extreme to their neighbors. Yet, The Case for Miracles shows not only that the miraculous is possible, but that God still does intervene in our world in awe-inspiring ways. Here’s a unique book that examines all sides of this issue and comes away with a passionate defense for God's divine action in lives today.

Craig S. Keener's book's preface:

Most modern prejudice against biblical miracle reports depends on David Hume's argument that uniform human experience precluded miracles. Yet current research shows that human experience is far from uniform. In fact, hundreds of millions of people today claim to have experienced miracles. New Testament scholar Craig Keener argues that it is time to rethink Hume's argument in light of the contemporary evidence available to us. This wide-ranging and meticulously researched two-volume study presents the most thorough current defense of the credibility of the miracle reports in the Gospels and Acts. Drawing on claims from a range of global cultures and taking a multidisciplinary approach to the topic, Keener suggests that many miracle accounts throughout history and from contemporary times are best explained as genuine divine acts, lending credence to the biblical miracle reports.

Do Cessationists reject these books?

Albion · Sep 17, 2021

TruthSeek3r said:
Do Cessationists reject these books?

Cessationists are called that because they assert that the gifts which were common in the early church and assisted the church to convert many to the new faith of Christ later declined and then ceased to be a significant feature of the Christian church. This is attested to by every historical record. What Cessationists do not say, however, is that God stopped gifting his people 100%. Of course miracles do occur from time to time even today, but there is not that common and continuous experience that once was the case. So because there is not, the claim of the opposite POV (Continuationism) is untenable.

TruthSeek3r · Sep 17, 2021

Albion said:
Cessationists are called that because they assert that the gifts which were common in the early church and assisted the church to convert many to the new faith of Christ later declined and then ceased to be a significant feature of the Christian church. This is attested to by every historical record. What Cessationists do not say, however, is that God stopped gifting his people 100%. Of course miracles do occur from time to time even today, but there is not that common and continuous experience that once was the case. So because there is not, the claim of the opposite POV (Continuationism) is untenable.

In other words, would you say that cessationists can be more accurately described as "soft continuationists", meaning that they do believe in the continuation of spiritual gifts, but their frequency and intensity are way below the levels they originally had in the 1st century?

Albion · Sep 17, 2021

TruthSeek3r said:
In other words, would you say that cessationists can be more accurately described as "soft continuationists", meaning that they do believe in the continuation of spiritual gifts, but their frequency and intensity are way below the levels they originally had in the 1st century?

You'd think so, and I am sympathetic to the language you used here. However, the issue is largely defined by the Continuationists, not the Cessationists. The latter virtually never, for instance, describe themselves with that term...unless, of course, they are in a discussion about this subject.

But to most Continuationists, the claim of a continuous and significant presence of the gifts throughout the history of the church is of enormous importance. Most of them cannot accept that any break in the continuity might have occurred and that only intermittent experiences, miracles, happened as was agreeable to God. The Continuationist's theology would be destroyed if that were admitted to.

Saint Steven · Sep 18, 2021

TruthSeek3r said:
Do Cessationists reject these books?

Probably difficult (and possibly wrong) to make a blanket statement about a whole group of individuals. A survey might find the group split based on posts already made on this topic.

Ironically, I see the lack of miracles to some degree CAUSED by Cessationism. And with both biblical proof and warning.

Jesus could not do many miracles in his own hometown due to disbelief. (Mark 6:5-6) So, what effect has Cessationism had on miracles in the western world? While at the same time we see miracles more common in lands where miracles and supernatural interventions in life are more readily acceptable.

And Jesus warned about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Which the passage context defines as attributing the work of God to Satan. (Matthew 12:24)

Albion · Sep 18, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Probably difficult (and possibly wrong) to make a blanket statement about a whole group of individuals. A survey might find the group split based on posts already made on this topic.

Ironically, I see the lack of miracles to some degree CAUSED by Cessationism. And with both biblical proof and warning.

Making that claim does show how Continuationism depends for its credibility, such as it is, on having opponents to blame for there being a cessation.

Among them are imaginary historians and rulers from the past, the oppressive church of earlier times, or it's the people they call Cessationists. But it's something.

A Continuationist, however, is called by that term only because he isn't especially interested in the issue, finding it to have no merit. So he doesn't make cessation vs. continuation be an item on his church's Statement of Belief at all.

Saint Steven · Sep 18, 2021

Albion said:
Making that claim does show how Continuationism depends for its credibility, such as it is, on having opponents to blame for there being a cessation.

Among them are imaginary historians and rulers from the past, the oppressive church of earlier times, or it's the people they call Cessationists. But it's something.

A Continuationist, however, is called by that term only because he isn't especially interested in the issue, finding it to have no merit. So he doesn't make cessation vs. continuation be an item on his church's Statement of Belief at all.

Would it follow that you also make the same claim about Jesus in his hometown? Blaming his obvious inabilities on someone else? Even blaming the town's people for the way they treated the prophets of old? (Mark 6:4) Pass the buck?

Albion · Sep 18, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Would it follow that you also make the same claim about Jesus in his hometown?

No.

Blaming his obvious inabilities on someone else? Even blaming the town's people for the way they treated the prophets of old? (Mark 6:4) Pass the buck?

You'd better explain what you are getting at with this. None of those items is a critical doctrine, and none of them ranks at or near the top of what identifies the particular group/denomination/etc. of etc. of believers.

Saint Steven · Sep 18, 2021

Albion said:
No.

You'd better explain what you are getting at with this. None of those items is a critical doctrine, and none of them ranks at or near the top of what identifies the particular group/denomination/etc. of etc. of believers.

Perhaps I misunderstood you, but you seemed to be saying that Continuationists were WRONGLY blaming Cessationists for the lack of miracles. Why wouldn't the same sentiment apply to Jesus in his hometown from your perspective? What's the difference? And why wouldn't the same thing that happened to Jesus apply here? Not sure what I need to explain.

Albion · Sep 18, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Perhaps I misunderstood you, but you seemed to be saying that Continuationists were WRONGLY blaming Cessationists for the lack of miracles.

I believe you are referring to the first sentence in my post, and I said that they blame Cessationists for the fact that a cessation occurred.

Cessationists don't want that to have happened and don't make doctrine out of it. They have been labelled this way simply for acknowledging what actually happened.

Saint Steven · Sep 18, 2021

Albion said:
I believe you are referring to the first sentence in my post, and I said that they blame Cessationists for the fact that a cessation occurred.

Cessationists don't want that to have happened and don't make doctrine out of it. They have been labelled this way simply for acknowledging what actually happened.

Aren't those the same folks that slam the churches that are operating in the miracle gifts? They warn their people to stay away from such churches, citing demonic tongues and false miracles. I haven't seen any support from that segment of the church.

Albion · Sep 18, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Aren't those the same folks that slam the churches that are operating in the miracle gifts?

Some people "slam" fake miracles, I suppose; but their churches do not have a practice of condemning Pentecostal Christians. I cannot remember it ever happening in any of the churches I have attended over the years, for example. And of course there's an exception to the rule, any rule, somewhere. However, that's all it is in this case.

What you are referring to may be an example of a denominational myth and, if so, it only serves to to verify what I was saying before...that Continuationists need to have Cessationism in order to justify the argument that substantiates Continuationism, whereas Cessationists spend essentially no time at all worrying about or debunking the Continuationist theory. Not unless it's contributing to a discussion that's specifically about this subject.

Saint Steven · Sep 18, 2021

Albion said:
Some people "slam" fake miracles, I suppose; but their churches do not have a practice of condemning Pentecostal Christians. I cannot remember it ever happening in any of the churches I have attended over the years, for example. And of course there's an exception to the rule, any rule, somewhere. However, that's all it is in this case.

What you are referring to may be an example of a denominational myth and, if so, it only serves to to verify what I was saying before...that Continuationists need to have Cessationism in order to justify the argument that substantiates Continuationism, whereas Cessationists spend essentially no time at all worrying about or debunking the Continuationist theory. Not unless it's contributing to a discussion that's specifically about this subject.

I'm glad that you have been insulated from my person experience with individuals on this. And I seem to recall that John MacArthur is pretty outspoken on the subject. Not sure if he represents the larger group, or not. But imagine he has several allies.

Cessationist view on books collating modern-day miracle reports?

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