Should West set standards?

Grace2022

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Reading Michael Palin's book 'Sahara', he describes a conversation with a missionary there, in Africa.
She said Western solutions should not be applied to African countries. Even on contentious issues such as female circumcision and segregation of men and women.

I cannot help but think she has a point.
Look what American involvement has done in Afghanistan. Has it really been worth it, people left there are now terrified and worse off than ever. It can be said there is arrogance in America and Britain telling them how to live. Though with the best of intentions.
 

Albion

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Look what American involvement has done in Afghanistan. Has it really been worth it, people left there are now terrified and worse off than ever.
I hardly think that's correct to say. Not unless it's true because a terrified populace sees the return of the brutality that went on twenty years ago and led, in part, to the Western nations getting involved in Afghanistan. It's easy to forget how that was.

It can be said there is arrogance in America and Britain telling them how to live. Though with the best of intentions.

When you use female circumcision and the segregation of the sexes as the examples, that's right.

But the West has gotten involved in African affairs to do a lot of good, too--clean water, representative government, modern medicine, etc. etc., even if a lot of this still needs more work.
 
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Grace2022

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I hardly think that's correct to say. Not unless it's true because a terrified populace sees the return of the brutality that went on twenty years ago and led, in part, to the Western nations getting involved in Afghanistan. It's easy to forget how that was.



When you use female circumcision and the segregation of the sexes as the examples, that's right.

But the West has gotten involved in African affairs to do a lot of good, too--clean water, representative government, modern medicine, etc. etc., even if a lot of this still needs more work.

You have some fair points of course. This woman who gave the opinions was a Christian missionary there. She knew and respected the culture there in Africa, the Muslims. She has a point because they have their own ways. With say female circumcision, we think that is brutal and wrong. But the women are often the ones who perform it on young girls, it is their way. For their own reasons. I can't imagine anything worse but they think it's normal and necessary.
With Afghanistan, we have now abandoned a lot of people to a terrible life, very likely worse than before we went in. Did we have the right to go in and change things? Now those who assisted us are in line for torture and death. Was it worth it and was anything achieved by interference?
 
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Albion

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With Afghanistan, we have now abandoned a lot of people to a terrible life, very likely worse than before we went in. Did we have the right to go in and change things? Now those who assisted us are in line for torture and death. Was it worth it and was anything achieved by interference?

In the original post, you asked if "arrogant" Western nations have the right to tell non-Western cultures how to live. But here you are only arguing that we didn't handle the Afghanistan matter well.

Yes, that's certainly true! But that goes to the mismanagement credited to one incompetent administrator who chose to waste every good thing that the West had accomplished in Afghanistan...and do it in a few weeks' time at that!

So now that Afghanistan faces a terrible future, does that mean that Western nations made a mess of the place? Well, no. In fact, much that had been accomplished--and now is certainly going to be undone under the Taliban--had been to the good and, now that it is jeopardized, the people are certainly terrified and have good reason to feel that way.
 
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com7fy8

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She said Western solutions should not be applied to African countries. Even on contentious issues such as female circumcision and segregation of men and women.

I cannot help but think she has a point.
Look what American involvement has done in Afghanistan. Has it really been worth it, people left there are now terrified and worse off than ever. It can be said there is arrogance in America and Britain telling them how to live. Though with the best of intentions.
The fact that American failed to stop some wrong things does not mean it would be wrong to stop those wrong things.

Stopping female circumcision is not a "Western" item. Either it is wrong or it isn't.

She has a point because they have their own ways. With say female circumcision, we think that is brutal and wrong. But the women are often the ones who perform it on young girls, it is their way.
Well, if those women have been psychologically trained and intimidated all their lives to see things the way they do, this certainly does not make their way right or acceptable.

I have been told that female circumcision by certain people claiming to be Muslims is in order to keep them from feeling pleasure during marital intimacy.

Here is an article I just found and read some of it >

Q&A on Female Genital Mutilation | Human Rights Watch

According to what I read in this article >

Female circumcision can be meant to help keep a female from being attracted to immorality and same-sex relating . . . since she won't feel pleasure. Also, there can be cultural identity included, maybe, by keeping a same tradition going. And if it is required in a location, a female living there can have major problems getting married if she has not been circumcised.

So, such women circumcising little girls can be doing it because they have been abused and brainwashed into accepting it, I would say.

The article, by the way, says not only Muslims are involved in this, plus not all people claiming to be Muslims are doing female circumcision. And female circumcision is done by certain people who claim to be of certain Christian and Jewish groups.

In this linked article, we have this quote >

"For example, while FGM is practiced in Egypt, which is predominantly Muslim, it is not practiced in many other countries with predominantly Muslim populations, such as Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. The association of FGM with Islam has been refuted by many Muslim scholars and theologians who say that FGM is not prescribed in the Quran and is contradictory to the teachings of Islam."


And this article says the United Nations has activities designed to stop female circumcision.

So, this is not only a Muslim problem, plus stopping it has not been only a Western effort, I can see.

So, even if the United States failed to change things to be better in Afghanistan, this does not automatically mean it would be wrong to stop wrong things in Afghanistan. But you need people who know what they are doing, who can help people to do what is better.

Jesus says, "without Me you can do nothing", in John 15:5.

If the United States is busy with pushing very wrong ways, such as mutilating men and mutilating and killing unborn people, how can she at the same time have the character to do very well to stop other people from doing their wrong things?

Jesus says, "he who is unjust in what is least is unjust also in much," in Luke 16:10)

From this I see how people in power in America can not have the character to do things right in Afghanistan while they do not have the character to do things right in the United States. I now think of this > mutilating Sharia Law Muslims with bombs and guns might not be how to pave the way to stopping the mutilation of little girls.

However, Jesus does have His people in various places, and with Jesus His obedient people are now already doing what works. They are succeeding, right while others of self-dependent pride are bleeding.
 
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Albion

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Stopping female circumcision is not a "Western" item. Either it is wrong or it isn't.

Well, if those women have been psychologically trained and intimidated all their lives to see things the way they do, this certainly does not make their way right or acceptable.
In addition this procedure is performed on young girls who are in no position to give informed consent or even, in some cases, fully understand what they are about to be subjected to.

And there are many accounts of females fleeing as refugees in the attempt to avoid being disfigured by some amateur with a broken coke bottle for a surgical instrument. Sooooo, the idea that this is just a procedure taken for granted in some cultures is open to question.
 
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durangodawood

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...She said Western solutions should not be applied to African countries. Even on contentious issues such as female circumcision and segregation of men and women.....
I think it depends on who is applying the standards.

I dont think military force and foreign occupation is a viable solution to advancing western standards. Possibly other kinds of alliances with progressive residents of these countries could help.
 
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Thera

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You have some fair points of course. This woman who gave the opinions was a Christian missionary there. She knew and respected the culture there in Africa, the Muslims. She has a point because they have their own ways. With say female circumcision, we think that is brutal and wrong. But the women are often the ones who perform it on young girls, it is their way. For their own reasons. I can't imagine anything worse but they think it's normal and necessary.
Female genital mutilation is a form of torture and extreme destruction to women's bodies, and I don't think it can ever be considered normal and necessary. Calling it female "circumcision" likens it to the routine procedure performed on males for religious or health reasons, but in reality, the procedures are totally different. In times past, male orphans were sold and castrated to be used as slaves, and I would class FGM as more comparable to castration given the damage it results in for women.

With Afghanistan, we have now abandoned a lot of people to a terrible life, very likely worse than before we went in. Did we have the right to go in and change things? Now those who assisted us are in line for torture and death. Was it worth it and was anything achieved by interference?
I agree with this - but again, I think deliberately deciding to go to war against a country is very different from such evils as torture, female genital mutilation or child sacrifice.
 
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