The Aquarium Argument: Why the universe wasn't created for humans.

pitabread · Sep 17, 2021

Occasionally the claim comes up that the universe was somehow invented entirely for the benefit of the human race: a bunch of teeny-tiny humans squirreled away on a teeny-tiny planet in a corner of a single galaxy among hundreds of billions of galaxies. For point of reference, the current size of the universe is an estimated 93 billion light-years in diameter.

In comparison, I decided to compare what this would be like with creating an equivalent sized aquarium for a handful of small fish. I currently have said group of fish in a modest-sized 20 gallon tank that is 2 feet wide.

Scaling up the fish tank relative to the size of Earth in comparison to the entire universe, the equivalent size of aquarium for those fish would be about 7 light-years in diameter.

To put that size in comparison, our entire solar system is only 1.5 light-years in diameter. The nearest star is only ~4 light-years away. This would be a fish tank big enough to house multiple solar systems.

Would it make sense to build an aquarium 7 light years in diameter to house a handful of fish that are otherwise comfortably housed in a 20 gallon tank? Nope. That seems a highly impractical and rather wasteful use of space.

So why would anyone create a universe 93 billion light-years in diameter to house a bunch of tiny humans on a teeny-tiny planet?

(Note: I fully recognize this is kind of a dumb argument. But I thought it was worth making just to give a sense of scale to the size of the universe.)

Abaxvahl · Sep 17, 2021

pitabread said:
So why would anyone create a universe 93 billion light-years in diameter to house a bunch of tiny humans on a teeny-tiny planet?

The answer is simple: it isn't merely for our benefit. While we are the crowning point on it, other things have intrinsically good existence in themselves and glorify God just by being.

pitabread · Sep 17, 2021

Abaxvahl said:
The answer is simple: it isn't merely for our benefit. While we are the crowning point on it, other things have intrinsically good existence in themselves and glorify God just by being.

It would certainly make more sense to have a universe not solely created for the benefit of humans. However, it also requires ridding oneself of the egocentric notion that humans are at the center of said universe (metaphorically speaking).

BobRyan · Sep 17, 2021

pitabread said:
Occasionally the claim comes up that the universe was somehow invented entirely for the benefit of the human race: a bunch of teeny-tiny humans squirreled away on a teeny-tiny planet in a corner of a single galaxy among hundreds of billions of galaxies. For point of reference, the current size of the universe is an estimated 93 billion light-years in diameter.

I guess you are talking about "What we still don't know" by Martin Reese and Leonard Susskind where they also share their dismay that it appears that the universe was magically created "For humans".

what we still don't know - Bing video

BobRyan · Sep 17, 2021

pitabread said:
It would certainly make more sense to have a universe not solely created for the benefit of humans. However, it also requires ridding oneself of the egocentric notion that humans are at the center of said universe (metaphorically speaking).

hardly. Rather it requires that "biological life" as we know it - is at the center in terms of "purpose"

pitabread · Sep 17, 2021

BobRyan said:
hardly. Rather it requires that "biological life" as we know it - is at the center in terms of "purpose"

Why would it require that? Why assume the universe was created for biological life at all? Especially since the vast majority of the universe is entirely hostile to biological life (as we know it).

2PhiloVoid · Sep 17, 2021

pitabread said:
Occasionally the claim comes up that the universe was somehow invented entirely for the benefit of the human race: a bunch of teeny-tiny humans squirreled away on a teeny-tiny planet in a corner of a single galaxy among hundreds of billions of galaxies. For point of reference, the current size of the universe is an estimated 93 billion light-years in diameter.

In comparison, I decided to compare what this would be like with creating an equivalent sized aquarium for a handful of small fish. I currently have said group of fish in a modest-sized 20 gallon tank that is 2 feet wide.

Scaling up the fish tank relative to the size of Earth in comparison to the entire universe, the equivalent size of aquarium for those fish would be about 7 light-years in diameter.

To put that size in comparison, our entire solar system is only 1.5 light-years in diameter. The nearest star is only ~4 light-years away. This would be a fish tank big enough to house multiple solar systems.

Would it make sense to build an aquarium 7 light years in diameter to house a handful of fish that are otherwise comfortably housed in a 20 gallon tank? Nope. That seems a highly impractical and rather wasteful use of space.

So why would anyone create a universe 93 billion light-years in diameter to house a bunch of tiny humans on a teeny-tiny planet?

(Note: I fully recognize this is kind of a dumb argument. But I thought it was worth making just to give a sense of scale to the size of the universe.)

You're right, this is a silly argument. But, I get it. We live in an age where "size matters," so it seems intuitively relevant even when it isn't.

Pavel Mosko · Sep 17, 2021

pitabread said:
(Note: I fully recognize this is kind of a dumb argument.

Well thank God for that statement. Your post fails on many levels.

1) Fish tank or aquarium actually is a good analogy, especially if you can conceive it as housing something that has finicky living needs, in comparision to most creatures on the earth that probably have a lot of latitude where they can live.

Your analogy is more like "Why isn't the universe an ocean we can swim in?" assuming we are salt water fish.

2) The universe mostly doesn't support life but we take for granted a lot of things. If the Big Bang happened just a little bit differently, lots of biological processes simply wouldn't work.

Probability For Life On Earth

3) An Oversized universe is good for other things. Ancient cultures for eons have marked time with the constellations, and in the Judeo-Christian tradition this also has theological meaning as well.

4) I happen to believe that the nature of the universe is more a foil for God. When we see how hostile the rest of the universe is towards life, and begin counting off all the things that needed to happen, it becomes less and less likely that is just simple chance or coincidence but there was a thumb on the scale making sure all the right levels of everything came together.

BobRyan · Sep 17, 2021

pitabread said:
Why would it require that? Why assume the universe was created for biological life at all?

Something about that 10^120 odds against it "and yet" it is perfectly designed for life - as Susskind pointed out.

JohnEmmett · Sep 17, 2021

pitabread said:
humans on a teeny-tiny planet?

Life is infinite. Yet…

Relativity means we are significant.

Hans Blaster · Sep 17, 2021

Pavel Mosko said:
3) An Oversized universe is good for other things. Ancient cultures for eons have marked time with the constellations, and in the Judeo-Christian tradition this also has theological meaning as well.

The stars that make up the constellations are *very* close, mostly in the local neighborhood. The typical star that makes up one of those asterisms is about 1 BILLION times closer than the visible limit of the Universe. They are also moving fast enough that the pictures are being distorted from millennium to millennium.

The stars are randomly positioned on the sky and the images we make of the are no different than the "patterns" we see in clouds.

d taylor · Sep 17, 2021

For a believer (christian) in God and His creation described in The Bible. This should not even muster up an ounce of interest or concern for a believer.

But as many actually do not believe in God's creation given in The Bible. Many believers will try to debate science's creation by trying to make science creation the creation of The Bible. Then try to defend this as God's creation, as a witness to there being a God and not only a God, but a God of the Genesis creation.

Interesting how much doubt and confusion in God's creation in Genesis, satan has sown among creation believing christians.

pitabread · Sep 17, 2021

d taylor said:
Interesting how much doubt and confusion in God's creation in Genesis, satan has sown among creation believing christians.

The Satan card can be played both ways.

pitabread · Sep 17, 2021

Pavel Mosko said:
3) An Oversized universe is good for other things. Ancient cultures for eons have marked time with the constellations, and in the Judeo-Christian tradition this also has theological meaning as well.

As Hans Blaster pointed out, the naked eye visible limits for the universe is dramatically closer than the actual size of the universe. We still don't need a universe *that* big even for this reason.

4) I happen to believe that the nature of the universe is more a foil for God. When we see how hostile the rest of the universe is towards life, and begin counting off all the things that needed to happen, it becomes less and less likely that is just simple chance or coincidence but there was a thumb on the scale making sure all the right levels of everything came together.

Meanwhile, the puddle was amazed at how well it fit within the hole it found itself in.

d taylor · Sep 17, 2021

pitabread said:
The Satan card can be played both ways.

Did not know you were a christian believing creationist

pitabread · Sep 17, 2021

d taylor said:
Did not know you were a christian believing creationist

That's not at all what you should have taken from that.

Pavel Mosko · Sep 17, 2021

pitabread said:
As Hans Blaster pointed out, the naked eye visible limits for the universe is dramatically closer than the actual size of the universe. We still don't need a universe *that* big even for this reason.

God doesn't have to do everything purely for the sake of humanity and other life on the earth. God can make a big oversized universe simply because he is a big oversized infinite God, aka El Shaddai and wants that expressed in his handiwork (which come to think of it does have some positive message for humanity). But I get it you are looking for a reason to not believe so you want to build some kind of strawman to help you out on that project so I wish you well on that.

SkyWriting · Sep 17, 2021

pitabread said:
Occasionally the claim comes up that the universe was somehow invented entirely for the benefit of the human race: a bunch of teeny-tiny humans squirreled away on a teeny-tiny planet in a corner of a single galaxy among hundreds of billions of galaxies. For point of reference, the current size of the universe is an estimated 93 billion light-years in diameter.

In comparison, I decided to compare what this would be like with creating an equivalent sized aquarium for a handful of small fish. I currently have said group of fish in a modest-sized 20 gallon tank that is 2 feet wide.

Scaling up the fish tank relative to the size of Earth in comparison to the entire universe, the equivalent size of aquarium for those fish would be about 7 light-years in diameter.

To put that size in comparison, our entire solar system is only 1.5 light-years in diameter. The nearest star is only ~4 light-years away. This would be a fish tank big enough to house multiple solar systems.

Would it make sense to build an aquarium 7 light years in diameter to house a handful of fish that are otherwise comfortably housed in a 20 gallon tank? Nope. That seems a highly impractical and rather wasteful use of space.

So why would anyone create a universe 93 billion light-years in diameter to house a bunch of tiny humans on a teeny-tiny planet?

(Note: I fully recognize this is kind of a dumb argument. But I thought it was worth making just to give a sense of scale to the size of the universe.)

You may have heard is said that God is big. A large Cosmos is logical.
Perhaps the Cosmos was exactly the same size as Humanity.
Would that be the correct size that made creation more understandable for some? There is no point to complaining about reality. It is what it is.

pitabread · Sep 17, 2021

SkyWriting said:
You may have heard is said that God is big.

I have not heard that. How would one measure the size of God?

pitabread · Sep 17, 2021

Pavel Mosko said:
God doesn't have to do everything purely for the sake of humanity and other life on the earth. God can make a big oversized universe simply because he is a big oversized infinite God, aka El Shaddai and wants that expressed in his handiwork (which come to think of it does have some positive message for humanity).

So basically showing off?

But I get it you are looking for a reason to not believe so you want to build some kind of strawman to help you out on that project so I wish you well on that.

For the record the OP has nothing to do with why I don't believe in a Christian-like deity. The OP is intended as silly diversion for an otherwise relatively boring sub-forum. I wouldn't take it too seriously.

The Aquarium Argument: Why the universe wasn't created for humans.

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