Why I don't believe in evolution...

The Barbarian

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That's a good point. In that instance it was in fact a spiritual death to which God was referring. However, the fact remains that physical death is also a result of sin. It is written, Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned, and, "the wages of sin is death..."

That's all spiritual. We all know of people who are very evil, who manage to live long, prosperous lives, as well as people who are good and God-loving, who die early and/or have very difficult lives. The death is not a physical one. We will all die. But after that, the judgement.

Jesus Christ lived a life of perfect, sinless obedience to God. Yet, He died.

And He was resurrected, showing that physical death is nothing for us to fear. If He came to save us from a physical death, He failed. We will all die someday. But the life He gives us is beyond physical life.

So I really don't see how death could spread to all because of one man - or how sin could spread to all because of one man - if evolution is true.

It might be hard to accept that we are all descended from one pair of humans to whom God gave living souls. But there's no reason to doubt it.

And just so you know, mitochondrial Eve and Y Adam lived in completely different time periods, so that answer won't work.

That's correct. That came much later, even though the last common male ancestor and last common female ancestor are closer together in time than formerly thought.

I don't see how we'll ever know who those first two were. And it doesn't matter.
 
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Where do we draw the line of when humans became fully evolved, morally conscious, and spiritual beings?
Without outside manipulation, the first human baby could not have been born from that which was not human. Since both camps (Creationists and Evolutionists) rule this out, both are stranded.
 
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The Barbarian

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Without outside manipulation, the first human baby could not have been born from that which was not human.

We are far from the only human species that ever existed. And of course, it's entirely possible that God chose two members of H. sapiens to be the first with living souls. I'm kinda inclined to think it was H. erectus or some archaic H. sapiens. But it doesn't matter.

Since both camps (Creationists and Evolutionists) rule this out, both are stranded.

Don't see how. Technically, it's not even a problem for creationists.
 
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J_B_

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1. More are born than can live (lots of feasible but suboptimal solutions)

2. Every individual is somewhat different than its parents (random changes in newly-generated feasible solutions)

3. Some of these differences affect the likelihood of surviving long enough to reproduce (some will be better than existing feasible solutions and will be the parents of the randomly-changed solutions of the next round)

4. These differences accumulate over time and tend to increase fitness. (surviving better solutions tend to converge on an optimum solution)

There is, BTW, no guarantee that it will converge on an optimum solution. It merely tends to do so. In some cases, increasing fitness can actually lead to population extinction (for instance, where males that are most successful in breeding with females, tend to have few or defective offspring).

Usually, it works though.

I suppose I've heard this before - maybe just not articulated in an explicit list. So did Darwin specifically list these out as axioms of a sort, or is it something you've extracted from his work?

I once tried to moderate a conversation in the science forum related to the principles of biology. Such things are always a tough go. I don't recall anyone offering a list like this. I got some good thoughts out of it, but nothing that would boil down to a fundamental theorem of biology.
 
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We are far from the only human species that ever existed. And of course, it's entirely possible that God chose two members of H. sapiens to be the first with living souls. I'm kinda inclined to think it was H. erectus or some archaic H. sapiens. But it doesn't matter.



Don't see how. Technically, it's not even a problem for creationists.
It only becomes a problem for Creationists when attention is diverted from the book of Genesis, to the discoveries of our caveman ancestors.
 
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Job 33:6

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Without outside manipulation, the first human baby could not have been born from that which was not human. Since both camps (Creationists and Evolutionists) rule this out, both are stranded.

If a reptile can give birth to a bird, I wouldn't think it would be ruled out that another species could give birth to ours via evolution.
 
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Ok, let's assume that evolution is true and that we share a common ancestry with apes, and that we've been in our current form for over 200,000 years.

When did sin enter into the world? Was there sin (murder, stealing, lying, adultery, etc) during those 200,000 years? What about death?

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. Romans 5:12-14

Who was this one man? At what point does he come into the picture? Jesus referred to Adam and Eve as real people. Not to mention, Jesus is why restoration and freedom from sin is available to everyone, just as Adam is the reason that sin and death came into the world and afflicted everyone. Please explain at what point sin and death entered into the world.

Please explain Noah and the flood, as this event was referenced by the Lord Jesus Christ who compared it with the end of the world. The Bible tells us that the three sons of Noah went on to birth the three races of people - Ham, the Africans (Blacks)...Shem, the Asiatics (Arabs, Jews, and Orientals)...and Japheth, the seafaring peoples (Europeans and Turks). Is the Bible wrong? After all, according to science, the Jews came from the Canaanites, who were Hamites. And supposedly all humans descended from a dark skinned East African people, with whom modern Africans share the highest number of genetic markers. This explicitly contradicts the Bible. Completely. What do you believe?

A good example of how methodological naturalism can produce lies can be observed by the dating of the New Testament. Here is an example of the way these scholars think: We know that because the destruction of the temple and the siege of Jerusalem was prophesied by Jesus in great detail, the Gospel of Mark must have been written after 70 AD (we are far too intelligent to believe in something like prophecy). And because the Gospel of Mark came first, we know that the other Gospels must have been written well after 70 AD. We know that the Gospel of Mark came before Matthew, because Matthew contains the same prophecy fabricated by the author of Mark, but is much longer and more likely to have incorporated other sources. And because they were written so late, they could not have been written by the actual disciples of Jesus. Likewise, we know that there must have been a Q source and an L source, because we know that there is no such thing as a Holy Spirit which brings all things back to the disciples' remembrance as Jesus supposedly promised. So naturally, the similarities and common factors must be explained by another source. This makes it possible that the Gospels may not have been completed until the 2nd century. Furthermore, the epistle of 2 Thessalonians makes reference to fabricated prophecies of Mark and Matthew, therefore we know that those epistles must have been written much later by an imposter using Paul's name, as Paul died before the destruction of the temple.

They do the same with the old testament. Isaiah, Daniel, and many books in the Bible have been maligned and disputed by scholars who attempt to discredit the Word of God by employing methodological naturalism. And they just keep building and building, theories based on theories based on assumptions. And then when I am outreaching, someone tells me that they don't believe in Jesus because the gospels were written so late. This is the kind of circular reasoning that methodological naturalism produces. Not just in biblical studies, but in all the sciences. It is a house of cards - cards built upon cards - and it all seems reasonable and solid as long as you are viewing it through the correct angle. But it is a very strong delusion.

These are good questions. That's why we are here to discuss. We didn't come all this way to discuss topics that were already settled.

There was always death. The fossil record demonstrates plenty of evidence for that. Fossil animals inside the stomachs of fossil predators date back to the Cambrian.
Direct Evidence for Predation on Trilobites in the Cambrian on JSTOR

And actually, evidence of predation even predates the Cambrian explosion. And it's common throughout the record with dinosaur predator tooth bones inside the bones of prey etc. With the exception of Ken ham, most Christians don't believe that T rex was using it's serrated knife like, railroad nail-like, teeth and massive jaw muscles to eat coconuts. It had the power to crush bones, the serrations of it's teeth, fine tuned to saw through meat like a steak knife saws through steak with use of it's serrations. Apex predators of history weren't sitting around eating lettuce. Death has been around for hundreds of millions of years, and every line of evidence demonstrates this with perfect clarity.

Anyway, so when did sin enter the world? Presumably sometime after the creation of Adam, as scripture describes. When did Adam enter the world? Being the first man, I'd say it's fair that He lived sometime in the last million years. So that would put some constraints on the entry of sin.

I'll consult with the Genesis Commentary of theologians, will brush up on scripture and will continue shortly.
 
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The Barbarian

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I suppose I've heard this before - maybe just not articulated in an explicit list. So did Darwin specifically list these out as axioms of a sort, or is it something you've extracted from his work?

Yeah, some break the fourth point into two points:
  • favorable variations tend to survive
  • these changes eventually change the population
Darwin had different chapters on these issues, but you can find all of it in chapt. 15, Recapitulation and Conclusion
(seeks an online source)...

Charles Darwin Origin Of Species Chapter15 – Internet Infidels
 
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Job 33:6

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Ok, let's assume that evolution is true and that we share a common ancestry with apes, and that we've been in our current form for over 200,000 years.

When did sin enter into the world? Was there sin (murder, stealing, lying, adultery, etc) during those 200,000 years? What about death?

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. Romans 5:12-14

Who was this one man? At what point does he come into the picture? Jesus referred to Adam and Eve as real people. Not to mention, Jesus is why restoration and freedom from sin is available to everyone, just as Adam is the reason that sin and death came into the world and afflicted everyone. Please explain at what point sin and death entered into the world.

Please explain Noah and the flood, as this event was referenced by the Lord Jesus Christ who compared it with the end of the world. The Bible tells us that the three sons of Noah went on to birth the three races of people - Ham, the Africans (Blacks)...Shem, the Asiatics (Arabs, Jews, and Orientals)...and Japheth, the seafaring peoples (Europeans and Turks). Is the Bible wrong? After all, according to science, the Jews came from the Canaanites, who were Hamites. And supposedly all humans descended from a dark skinned East African people, with whom modern Africans share the highest number of genetic markers. This explicitly contradicts the Bible. Completely. What do you believe?

A good example of how methodological naturalism can produce lies can be observed by the dating of the New Testament. Here is an example of the way these scholars think: We know that because the destruction of the temple and the siege of Jerusalem was prophesied by Jesus in great detail, the Gospel of Mark must have been written after 70 AD (we are far too intelligent to believe in something like prophecy). And because the Gospel of Mark came first, we know that the other Gospels must have been written well after 70 AD. We know that the Gospel of Mark came before Matthew, because Matthew contains the same prophecy fabricated by the author of Mark, but is much longer and more likely to have incorporated other sources. And because they were written so late, they could not have been written by the actual disciples of Jesus. Likewise, we know that there must have been a Q source and an L source, because we know that there is no such thing as a Holy Spirit which brings all things back to the disciples' remembrance as Jesus supposedly promised. So naturally, the similarities and common factors must be explained by another source. This makes it possible that the Gospels may not have been completed until the 2nd century. Furthermore, the epistle of 2 Thessalonians makes reference to fabricated prophecies of Mark and Matthew, therefore we know that those epistles must have been written much later by an imposter using Paul's name, as Paul died before the destruction of the temple.

They do the same with the old testament. Isaiah, Daniel, and many books in the Bible have been maligned and disputed by scholars who attempt to discredit the Word of God by employing methodological naturalism. And they just keep building and building, theories based on theories based on assumptions. And then when I am outreaching, someone tells me that they don't believe in Jesus because the gospels were written so late. This is the kind of circular reasoning that methodological naturalism produces. Not just in biblical studies, but in all the sciences. It is a house of cards - cards built upon cards - and it all seems reasonable and solid as long as you are viewing it through the correct angle. But it is a very strong delusion.

Regarding Noah's Sons, I'm not really seeing scripture describing Noah's sons being ancestors to all Africans, Asiatics and Europeans. Would you mind quoting the scripture you're referring to?

I see a few passages referring to Egypt being considered the land of Ham. But I wouldn't consider the country of modern Egypt to be the prehistoric continent of Africa.

I think part of the disconnect would be in the understanding that the flood was global. If the flood were global and Noah and his family were literally the only people left on earth, people might think that Noah's sons were ancestral to everyone on earth.

However, it should also be considered that people of ancient Israel also didn't know that the land was a round globe. So contextually, I don't think it's reasonable to extrapolate "father of Egypt" to mean "father of Africa". I suspect that the logic would continue with the other two sons as well. If scripture doesn't actually describe Ham being an ancestor to people of a continent, then it would be reading into it to conclude things that the scripture doesn't actually say.

Biblical literalist YECism really is like an ultimate extrapolation of things that scripture doesn't say. Dinosaurs on the Ark and nephilim battling in Roman colosseums with dinosaurs. It's the final and full extrapolation, far beyond what scripture actually says. And that's really important to understand.

It would probably be best to take scripture, take multiple translations, and to see what it literally says (and doesn't say) on these matters.
 
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I don't see how we'll ever know who those first two were. And it doesn't matter.

Well, M Eve is the earliest possible common maternal ancestor for all humanity, and Y Adam the earliest possible common paternal. So before them, you might very well have to go back a very, very long time before you find a paternal/maternal common ancestor for all people alive at the same time. But here is the problem you have: M Eve was homo sapien albeit barely, but Y Adam was almost certainly an erectus. So if you go back too much further, the biblical Adam and Eve might very well have walked on all fours!

Ah, gee...
 
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Job 33:6

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Regarding Noah's Sons, I'm not really seeing scripture describing Noah's sons being ancestors to all Africans, Asiatics and Europeans. Would you mind quoting the scripture you're referring to?

I see a few passages referring to Egypt being considered the land of Ham. But I wouldn't consider the country of modern Egypt to be the prehistoric continent of Africa.

I think part of the disconnect would be in the understanding that the flood was global. If the flood were global and Noah and his family were literally the only people left on earth, people might think that Noah's sons were ancestral to everyone on earth.

However, it should also be considered that people of ancient Israel also didn't know that the land was a round globe. So contextually, I don't think it's reasonable to extrapolate "father of Egypt" to mean "father of Africa". I suspect that the logic would continue with the other two sons as well. If scripture doesn't actually describe Ham being an ancestor to people of a continent, then it would be reading into it to conclude things that the scripture doesn't actually say.

Biblical literalist YECism really is like an ultimate extrapolation of things that scripture doesn't say. Dinosaurs on the Ark and nephilim battling in Roman colosseums with dinosaurs. It's the final and full extrapolation, far beyond what scripture actually says. And that's really important to understand.

It would probably be best to take scripture, take multiple translations, and to see what it literally says (and doesn't say) on these matters.

I'm trying my best to stretch my imagination with shem being ancestral to all Asians.

I've seen people take scripture to some pretty far off places, but I'm not even finding scripture that even remotely appears to state this. @The Barbarian do you know where this connection comes from between shem and an ancestral line to all Asians?
 
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Job 33:6

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Well, M Eve is the earliest possible common maternal ancestor for all humanity, and Y Adam the earliest possible common paternal. So before them, you might very well have to go back a very, very long time before you find a paternal/maternal common ancestor for all people alive at the same time. But here is the problem you have: M Eve was homo sapien albeit barely, but Y Adam was almost certainly an erectus. So if you go back too much further, the biblical Adam and Eve might very well have walked on all fours!

Ah, gee...

I'm not sure if you're confusing "most recent" ancestor [which would be the latest, given that recent in time is later] with "earliest possible".

Did you intentionally reverse this language?

Also, mitochondrial Eve of course is defined by a lineage in mitochondrial DNA. But other forms of DNA, such as nuclear DNA, indicate that other women, other human women, were present as well alongside mitochondrial Eve.

Which shouldnt be of any surprise to us, given that evolution occurs of course through populations. I think it's fair to say that scientifically, as barbarian noted, it's difficult to say when the first human, Adam, was created. Difficult to say in regards to the spirit breathed into Adam, which wouldn't be a physical event and thus wouldn't go noticed by any genetics study anyhow, but also difficult even to determine with use of genetics studies.

But scripture doesn't say that Adam and Eve are even defined by mutations.

So again we are left in a position where we either extrapolate pretty extensively, that a woman was made out of a rib bone and that she was mother of all human beings without any contemporaries, or we turn back to the question of if Genesis was ever meant to be a scientific text to begin with (though things like a solid half dome in the sky upon a limited distance of flat land might have us skeptical of the YEC approach).
 
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Sam Saved by Grace

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These are good questions. That's why we are here to discuss. We didn't come all this way to discuss topics that were already settled.

There was always death. The fossil record demonstrates plenty of evidence for that. Fossil animals inside the stomachs of fossil predators date back to the Cambrian.
Direct Evidence for Predation on Trilobites in the Cambrian on JSTOR

And actually, evidence of predation even predates the Cambrian explosion. And it's common throughout the record with dinosaur predator tooth bones inside the bones of prey etc. With the exception of Ken ham, most Christians don't believe that T rex was using it's serrated knife like, railroad nail-like, teeth and massive jaw muscles to eat coconuts. It had the power to crush bones, the serrations of it's teeth, fine tuned to saw through meat like a steak knife saws through steak with use of it's serrations. Apex predators of history weren't sitting around eating lettuce. Death has been around for hundreds of millions of years, and every line of evidence demonstrates this with perfect clarity.

Anyway, so when did sin enter the world? Presumably sometime after the creation of Adam, as scripture describes. When did Adam enter the world? Being the first man, I'd say it's fair that He lived sometime in the last million years. So that would put some constraints on the entry of sin.

I'll consult with the Genesis Commentary of theologians, will brush up on scripture and will continue shortly.
Regarding Noah's Sons, I'm not really seeing scripture describing Noah's sons being ancestors to all Africans, Asiatics and Europeans. Would you mind quoting the scripture you're referring to?

I see a few passages referring to Egypt being considered the land of Ham. But I wouldn't consider the country of modern Egypt to be the prehistoric continent of Africa.

I think part of the disconnect would be in the understanding that the flood was global. If the flood were global and Noah and his family were literally the only people left on earth, people might think that Noah's sons were ancestral to everyone on earth.

However, it should also be considered that people of ancient Israel also didn't know that the land was a round globe. So contextually, I don't think it's reasonable to extrapolate "father of Egypt" to mean "father of Africa". I suspect that the logic would continue with the other two sons as well. If scripture doesn't actually describe Ham being an ancestor to people of a continent, then it would be reading into it to conclude things that the scripture doesn't actually say.

Biblical literalist YECism really is like an ultimate extrapolation of things that scripture doesn't say. Dinosaurs on the Ark and nephilim battling in Roman colosseums with dinosaurs. It's the final and full extrapolation, far beyond what scripture actually says. And that's really important to understand.

It would probably be best to take scripture, take multiple translations, and to see what it literally says (and doesn't say) on these matters.

I appreciate you taking the time to thoroughly answer my questions.

I believe that the flood was global because of the following passage:

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God. Noah became the father of three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. Then God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth. Genesis 6:5-13

Any natural reading of this would lead one to believe that the flood was universal. To suggest anything else would require one to begin with a presupposition and read it into the text, and that is not a very wise way of studying scripture. I don't care if it's a scientific presupposition or not. It's extrabiblical, and the practice of eisegesis is never justifiable. Frankly, it's how cults come about. I understand what a pickle this puts you in, as you are a geologist, and you would face persecution and revilement if you affirmed the Word of God. I do sympathize. My advice would be to stop practicing methodological naturalism - consider what effect Biblical accounts would have had on the evidence. If you rule out the Biblical narrative of x, for example, the only remaining method of explaining the evidence is through y. And then y is used as evidence against the Biblical narrative. Remember when I said that methodological naturalism leads to circular reasoning? Sadly, it's the truth.

Finally, notice that in the very same context of God telling Noah that He was going to destroy all flesh on the earth, we are told that Noah became the father of three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. That's interesting, and context is important.

Though there is almost no scientific research into this anymore, due to political pressures. And though there is a lot of mixture nowadays, the fact remains that there are three major races. Modern racial understanding is more social than biological, seeing as how reality isn't quite so black and white. Modern Semites are a mix of Caucasian and Asiatic, but historically were more Asiatic than Caucasian. Aboriginals are a mix of African and Asiatic, and Orientals are virtually full blown Asiatic of varying degrees. Northern Europeans are full blown Japhites, as are southern Europeans (though the Moorish invasion resulted in Afro/Asiatic admixture to varying degrees). Turks are also Japhetic/Caucasoid. Natives to the Americas were an Asiatic race originally. Again, three major races.
 
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I'm not sure if you're confusing "most recent" ancestor [which would be the latest, given that recent in time is later] with "earliest possible".

Did you intentionally reverse this language?

Also, mitochondrial Eve of course is defined by a lineage in mitochondrial DNA. But other forms of DNA, such as nuclear DNA, indicate that other women, other human women, were present as well alongside mitochondrial Eve.

Which shouldnt be of any surprise to us, given that evolution occurs of course through populations. I think it's fair to say that scientifically, as barbarian noted, it's difficult to say when the first human, Adam, was created. Difficult to say in regards to the spirit breathed into Adam, which wouldn't be a physical event and thus wouldn't go noticed by any genetics study anyhow, but also difficult even to determine with use of genetics studies.

But scripture doesn't say that Adam and Eve are even defined by mutations.

So again we are left in a position where we either extrapolate pretty extensively, that a woman was made out of a rib bone and that she was mother of all human beings without any contemporaries, or we turn back to the question of if Genesis was ever meant to be a scientific text to begin with (though things like a solid half dome in the sky upon a limited distance of flat land might have us skeptical of the YEC approach).
Yes, when I said "earliest" - I meant the soonest we would arrive at it going backwards from the present. So my language was reversed.
 
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I appreciate you taking the time to thoroughly answer my questions.

I believe that the flood was global because of the following passage:

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God. Noah became the father of three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. Then God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth. Genesis 6:5-13

Any natural reading of this would lead one to believe that the flood was universal. To suggest anything else would require one to begin with a presupposition and read it into the text, and that is not a very wise way of studying scripture. I don't care if it's a scientific presupposition or not. It's extrabiblical, and the practice of eisegesis is never justifiable. Frankly, it's how cults come about. I understand what a pickle this puts you in, as you are a geologist, and you would face persecution and revilement if you affirmed the Word of God. I do sympathize. My advice would be to stop practicing methodological naturalism - consider what effect Biblical accounts would have had on the evidence. If you rule out the Biblical narrative of x, for example, the only remaining method of explaining the evidence is through y. And then y is used as evidence against the Biblical narrative. Remember when I said that methodological naturalism leads to circular reasoning? Sadly, it's the truth.

Finally, notice that in the very same context of God telling Noah that He was going to destroy all flesh on the earth, we are told that Noah became the father of three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. That's interesting, and context is important.

Though there is almost no scientific research into this anymore, due to political pressures. And though there is a lot of mixture nowadays, the fact remains that there are three major races. Modern racial understanding is more social than biological, seeing as how reality isn't quite so black and white. Modern Semites are a mix of Caucasian and Asiatic, but historically were more Asiatic than Caucasian. Aboriginals are a mix of African and Asiatic, and Orientals are virtually full blown Asiatic of varying degrees. Northern Europeans are full blown Japhites, as are southern Europeans (though the Moorish invasion resulted in Afro/Asiatic admixture to varying degrees). Turks are also Japhetic/Caucasoid. Natives to the Americas were an Asiatic race originally. Again, three major races.

I feel like we've already covered these topics. A truly natural reading of Genesis would have us believe that the earth was flat with a dome over it (a solid dome, spread as metal) (Gen 1:6-8), windows of the dome [in which water passes through] (Gen 7:11), birds flying across the face of the dome (face implying something flat) (Gen 1:20), columns which support the land (Sam 2:8, Job 9:6, Psalm 75:3), etc.) And of course, separation of waters from the waters was referring to waters below and heavenly waters (the blue sky), also implying a solid structure with windows in it, as it was written. This can't really be seen in English translations, however it's quite clear in the original Hebrew (as per OT Biblical scholars and Jewish scholars alike whom are well versed in Hebrew). There is no methodological naturalism in this regard, it's all based on a direct reading of hebrew scripture/God's word.

Additionally, all historical accounts of all people's of all nations, all subscribed to a flat earth at the time in which Genesis was written (see my sourced link below), further giving more credence to the above noted Biblical scholarly interpretation of Hebrew Genesis in which the authors believed that the earth was a flat land rather than a spherical globe (and obviously there is no reason for the authors of Genesis to believe the planet was a globe because they didn't have satellites back then, so we can't really blame them).

Source:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...kQFnoECBcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw21a4KgzTxIQhlVuIWIKCtk

Further, these verses you're referring to aren't speaking of a spherical planet earth but of local flat land.


I suppose so long as we interpret the Hebrew differently, or rely on different translations, we could not agree between these two world views. However, thankfully we have science to break the tie.

See response here:
1. Why I don't believe in evolution... -scriptural case (completely independent of science and nothing to do with methodological or ontological naturalism).
2. Why I don't believe in evolution...
3. Old Earth Geology
4. Old Earth Geology Part 3 (Green River Formation)
-scientific case (among many I've made which also cannot be addressed by YECs).

YECism fails on 3 accounts. It fails in it's interpretation of Hebrew Genesis (see source 1). It fails on it's understanding of beliefs of all nations at that time (see source 1), and it heavily fails scientifically (see sources 2, 3 and 4).

All the above said, because the authors of Genesis didn't know and weren't aware of planet earth in the sense of a spherical globe, they couldn't possibly have have known if such a flood was truly global. And not only that, but their hebrew writings couldn't possibly have meant that the flood encircled the Spherical earth because they had no concept or understanding of earth as a globe. And so there is no reason for us as readers and Christians today, to interpret the flood as global.
 
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Sam Saved by Grace

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OK, so I will take that as a punt.

Again I say, methodological naturalism leads to circular reasoning.

Also, there are three major races of man and only three races, and these races correlate directly to the three sons of Noah. 19th/early 20th century biology confirmed three major races, but since the Holocaust, it has been considered taboo to do any type of racial studies. And now, biologists universally say that there are no racial subdivisions, though there are mountains of evidence to the contrary - that evidence is flatly denied, and it's researches ostracized. Just one of many examples, since the time of Galileo, of a near uniform, factually wrong scientific consensus being the result of bias and groupthink. So Christians have a valid historical precedence for not succumbing to the argumentum ad populum fallacy in regards to a near scientific consensus regarding evolution.

Lastly, I don't think you can speak Hebrew, though the translators of my Bible could. Neither do I speak it, yet I have not seen anything remotely close to the Bible saying that the Earth is flat. If they are using language similar to other contemporary sources that did in fact affirm a flat earth, then so what. Stop allowing your understanding of the Bible to be influenced by other things. Sola Scriptura, remember? It isn't just a recommendation.
 
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The Barbarian

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Again I say, methodological naturalism leads to circular reasoning.

Hmmm... most plumbers (and scientists) would point out that your assumption is wrong. Perhaps you don't know what "circular reasoning" means. What do you think it means?

Also, there are three major races of man and only three races

No, that's wrong,too. There is only one biological race of humans now. Many thousands of years ago, there were other races, but today, "race"is just a social construct, which is why the number of "races"depends on which culture you're in. The fact is, there is more genetic variation within any "race" you might name, than there is between such "races."

The Human Genome Project (headed by a devout evangelical Christian, BTW) nailed this down for good. Which is not to say creationists didn't fight back hard. This is from Henry Morris, one of the founders of the Institute for Creation Research:

“Yet the prophecy again has its obverse side. Somehow, they have only gone so far and no further. The Japhethites and Semites have, sooner or later, taken over their territories and their inventions, and then developed them and utilized them for their own enlargement. Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they were eventually displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites.”
...
“These very general and broad national and racial characteristics obviously admit of many exceptions on an individual genetic basis. It is also obvious that the prophecy is a divine description of future events, in no way needing the deliberate assistance of man for its accomplishment. Neither Negroes nor any other Hamitic people were intended to be forcibly subjugated on the basis of this Noah declaration. The prophecy would be inevitably fulfilled because of the innate natures of the three genetic stocks, not by virtue of any artificial constraints imposed by man.”

Henry Morris The Beginning of the World: A Scientific Study of Genesis 1-11 1997 (my emphasis)

That's right. The co-founder of the first and largest YE creationist organization, argued that the supposed intellectual and spiritual genetic inferiority of blacks made them destined to be slaves. Racism isn't critical to YE creationism; today, most YE creationists admit that there is only one race of humans. But racism was a basic assumption of the people who invented YE.

We are all one race (“one blood” in Acts 17:26), the human race, descended from two ancestors, Adam and Eve.
Answers in Genesis


And yes, early creationists often denied that black people were descended from Adam and Eve.

Lastly, I don't think you can speak Hebrew, though the translators of my Bible could. Neither do I speak it, yet I have not seen anything remotely close to the Bible saying that the Earth is flat.

Since the sky, in early parts of scripture, is described as a dome with windows in it though which rain falls to earth, I don't see any way to avoid that.
 
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Sam Saved by Grace

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You have a demeaning tone. I know perfectly well what circular reasoning is, and I don't have to defend my definition to you. And I have known plenty of plumbers who would agree with me, but I don't repeatedly commit the fallacy of appealing to authority/majority/imaginary people/etc. I am sure that diverse opinions could be found within any profession. So stop citing imaginary people of certain occupations who would agree with you. It's cheap, fallacious, and quite frankly, embarrassing.

I see you waste no time rattling off the popular mantra of the day: "no race but the human race". Well if you honestly believe a 6'3 blonde Swede is racially identical to a 4'10 African pygmy, you are certainly not worth reasoning with.

Yes, people in the past have used the biblical curse on Ham's first born Canaan as justification for treating all Ham's descendants abusively, and that is unfortunate. But it does nothing to change the facts.

Saying "there is more genetic variation within a race than between races" is extremely disingenuous, and betrays your lack of commitment to the scientific method, namely falsification, when it serves your particular purpose. The very same frivolous argument can be applied to sex, families, breeds, subspecies, and even certain species. So don't embarrass yourself by using that argument again.
 
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The Barbarian

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You have an insulting tone and I'm sick of it. I know perfectly well what circular reasoning is, and I don't have to defend my definition to the likes of you.

That's easy to show. Show us how methodological naturalism of science or plumbing or any other naturalistic field amounts to "circular reasoning."

but I don't repeatedly commit the fallacy of argumentum ab auctoritate.

Isn't that what citing some religious group's interpretation of the Bible amounts to?

I'm just showing you the facts. And yes, I did show you that today's YE creationist groups also admit that there is only one human race today. Which, I suppose is argumentum ad auctoritate. However, my argument depended on the facts.

see you waste no time citing the popular mantra of the day: "no race but human race". If you honestly believe a 6'3 blonde Swede is racially identical to a 4'10 African pygmy, you are certainly not worth talking to.

And here's the part you don't want to hear; if the Swedish person needed a blood transfusion, the pygmy could very well be a better match for that, than the Swedish person's next door neighbor.

Learn about it here:

Stud Hist Philos Biol Biomed Sc 2013 Sep; 44(3): 262–271.
Biological Races in Humans
Alan R. Templeton
ABSTRACT
Races may exist in humans in a cultural sense, but biological concepts of race are needed to access their reality in a non-species-specific manner and to see if cultural categories correspond to biological categories within humans. Modern biological concepts of race can be implemented objectively with molecular genetic data through hypothesis-testing. Genetic data sets are used to see if biological races exist in humans and in our closest evolutionary relative, the chimpanzee. Using the two most commonly used biological concepts of race, chimpanzees are indeed subdivided into races but humans are not. Adaptive traits, such as skin color, have frequently been used to define races in humans, but such adaptive traits reflect the underlying environmental factor to which they are adaptive and not overall genetic differentiation, and different adaptive traits define discordant groups. There are no objective criteria for choosing one adaptive trait over another to define race. As a consequence, adaptive traits do not define races in humans. Much of the recent scientific literature on human evolution portrays human populations as separate branches on an evolutionary tree. A tree-like structure among humans has been falsified whenever tested, so this practice is scientifically indefensible. It is also socially irresponsible as these pictorial representations of human evolution have more impact on the general public than nuanced phrases in the text of a scientific paper. Humans have much genetic diversity, but the vast majority of this diversity reflects individual uniqueness and not race.

Biological Races in Humans

I found a link available on the net. Go and read it. It's important for you. Race, in humans, is merely a cultural construct, and has no biological significance. Turns out, human populations have always been really enthusiastic about sharing their genes, and so gene flow has made it impossible to identify specific biological races in humans.

Saying "there is more genetic variation within a race than between races" is extremely disingenous

It's just a fact. You are as likely to be a good genetic match with a New Guinea highlander as you are to be with some other person of European ancestry.

Ironically, the issue for organ donors is that non-Africans have less genetic variation than people of African descent. Which is precisely what would be true, if modern humans originated in Africa and migrated into the rest of the world.

and betrays your lack of committment to the scientic method, namely falsification

As you have seen, the results of the Human Genome Project falsified the hypothesis of biological human races. Even most YE creationists now admit that there is only one human biological human race.

The very same frivolous argument can be applied to sex, families, breeds, subspecies, and even certain species.

No. For example, the same results can be shown in X and Y chromosomes. "Breeds" are what would be called "demes" in biology, and no, they aren't biological races. Subspecies are essentially the same as races. Chimpanzees, for example have races that can be biologically demonstrated. Humans once did, but today there only remains one race of humans.
 
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