Should the government dictate or regulate marriage?

DaisyDay · Sep 16, 2021

98cwitr said:
Can't all those be named/assigned/determined without being married?

Sure, they can simply be denied (unless the person is rich, then those who can afford them can buy them).

pgp_protector · Sep 16, 2021

GreekOrthodox said:
Dang it Florida Man and Woman, get moving!!!

Going to need to do a lot of moving

Gatebox says it has issued 3,700 such certificates,

TLK Valentine · Sep 16, 2021

98cwitr said:
Can't all those be named/assigned/determined without being married?

With a little extra hassle and red tape, probably.

But why should they, when an easy solution already exists?

Ken-1122 · Sep 16, 2021

Desk trauma said:
Because that wasn’t the case brought before the court. I do expect the precedent to be sighted if/when polygamist/plural marriage advocates seek legal standing for their unions just as Loving vs Virginia was sited in same sex marriage cases.

If the same argument for same sex marriage can be applied to all the other relationships, why can't the ruling be applied to all the other marriages as well? Why wait for a lawsuit before righting a wrong?

TLK Valentine · Sep 16, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
If the same argument for same sex marriage can be applied to all the other relationships, why can't the ruling be applied to all the other marriages as well? Why wait for a lawsuit before righting a wrong?

Because by its very nature, the judiciary system is reactive, not proactive. It doesn't rule until a case is brought.

If you want to change the laws without waiting for a lawsuit, write your congressperson, because that's the duty of the legislative branch.

Ken-1122 · Sep 16, 2021

TLK Valentine said:
Because by its very nature, the judiciary system is reactive, not proactive. It doesn't rule until a case is brought..

Another reason to get government out of marriages

Belk · Sep 16, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
Another reason to get government out of marriages

Do you have any idea the amount of money it would cost to get the government out of marriage? How much case law would be invalidated? The utter chaos that would cause?

RDKirk · Sep 17, 2021

Belk said:
Do you have any idea the amount of money it would cost to get the government out of marriage? How much case law would be invalidated? The utter chaos that would cause?

The problem with marriages is that it depends too much on case law, which is, as @TLK Valentine said, reactive instead of proactive.

People see all the terrible court drama it takes to manage marriage problems, disputes, and dissolutions and fail to realize all of that is because marriages start out on nothing but implied and traditional expectations of performance for both parties. They almost never have the same picture in mind of how the marriage will function. Even if they've been living together for years, one party will have expectations for a change in the relationship--or no change in the relationship--that the other party doesn't have.

The reason there is so much case law is because because expectations were not hammered out in the beginning. That's what a domestic partnership contract would resolve.

And as I said before, it wouldn't take very long at all for the legal industry to put the most usual and common expectations--as already determined by existing case law--into boilerplate. It could even be done on LegalZoom, just as wills are done.

Paidiske · Sep 17, 2021

Of course, really good and thorough marriage preparation would help a great deal too.

High Fidelity · Sep 17, 2021

To an extent, for example legal minimum age.

TLK Valentine · Sep 17, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
Another reason to get government out of marriages

I'm not following your logic here. Help me out?

Belk · Sep 17, 2021

RDKirk said:
The problem with marriages is that it depends too much on case law, which is, as @TLK Valentine said, reactive instead of proactive.

People see all the terrible court drama it takes to manage marriage problems, disputes, and dissolutions and fail to realize all of that is because marriages start out on nothing but implied and traditional expectations of performance for both parties. They almost never have the same picture in mind of how the marriage will function. Even if they've been living together for years, one party will have expectations for a change in the relationship--or no change in the relationship--that the other party doesn't have.

The reason there is so much case law is because because expectations were not hammered out in the beginning. That's what a domestic partnership contract would resolve.

And as I said before, it wouldn't take very long at all for the legal industry to put the most usual and common expectations--as already determined by existing case law--into boilerplate. It could even be done on LegalZoom, just as wills are done.

I claim no expertise but I believe a majority of marriage law is actually codified in legislative action and possibly common law. Just for example inheritance law. Can you imagine the chaos if every child must now be claimed and documents drafted just so the money their parents leave when they die does not revert to the state?

CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN · Sep 17, 2021

I believe that sometimes the government needs to get involve. If they don't , Christians and other religions will try to force their belief on everyone. The Ultra Right wing Conservative Christians has been trying to force a strict Conservative Christian only rules on everyone. And trying to ignore everyone else.

Clare73 · Sep 17, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
Happens all the time when people live together, but there will be nothing stopping them from getting a government-enforced domestic partnership contract before moving-in together

That's my point, that's why laws regulating civil contacts are a good thing.

Clare73 · Sep 17, 2021

durangodawood said:
I guess that was 30 years ago..... but still, churches having an issue with "interracial" marriage. Ugh.

Otoh its clear that church generally can be very conservative and sometimes lag behind society morally.

The church lags behind society morally,
or society lags behind the church morally?

Which is your moral basis, the NT or society?

Lifelong_sinner · Sep 17, 2021

Society is going a separate path than the church. Society always makes things more difficult, more sinful, and more convoluted.

durangodawood · Sep 17, 2021

Clare73 said:
The church lags behind society morally,
or society lags behind the church morally?....

I think it can be either, depending on the church and the issue. When I hear pgp's story of encountering church resistance to his proposed "interracial" marriage, that is immoral intransigence on a subject where the church should be a moral leader.

Clare73 said:
....Which is your moral basis, the NT or society?

My moral standard is the natural values I was born and raised with, combined with teachings of the wise about how those values are sustained personally and societally. In that light the NT was a tremendous moral evolution from what preceded it. I think it remains highly instructive after all these years.

Strathos · Sep 17, 2021

I don't believe that the government should have the power to define marriage for everyone. (Neither should any given church).

pgp_protector · Sep 17, 2021

Clare73 said:
The church lags behind society morally,
or society lags behind the church morally?

Which is your moral basis, the NT or society?

So you're saying I shouldn't be married to my wife, and that those churches were right?

Clare73 · Sep 17, 2021

pgp_protector said:
So you're saying I shouldn't be married to my wife, and that those churches were right?

The NT forbids remarriage after divorce
(Matthew 5:32; Romans 7:3; 1 Corinthians 7:10-11, 1 Corinthians 7:39).

Should the government dictate or regulate marriage?

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