Lake of Fire

Ceallaigh

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I would be glad to answer your question as soon as you show me where I ever mentioned the soul.

Well for starters the soul is mentioned in that canned spiel you post on a daily basis. So in that alone you've posted about the soul 2954659630467 times.

Der Alte said:
The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment
 
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Butch5

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Typical heterodox nonsense you find 1-2 verses which seem to support your assumptions/presuppositions and ignore all the other verses.
I quoted 26 verses where the NT writer juxtaposes or parallels aionios with other words which show irrefutably shows that aionios means eternal.
Similar to this. There is an animal it is very big, its skin is thick and grey, it is about 10 feet high, it has large floppy ears. a long flexible nose, the legs are big round like trees, it has long sharp teeth sticking out from its mouth.
What animal have I described.
Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]
In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal."
Nothing you can say will change this

Revelation 22:3-5
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

One or two verses? I gave you passages from Jesus, the apostles, and Paul. All of them spoke of the END of the aion and of an aion to come. Clearly not eternal. But, you've made it clear that you give priority to your sources over the words of Jesus and the apostles

Have you actually looked at the Greek text? Aionas only appears once, not twice.

καὶ βασιλεύσει ἐπὶ τὸν οἶκον Ἰακὼβ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ τῆς βασιλείας αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἔσται τέλος. (Lk. 1:33 GNT)

As I've shown, your reasoning is flawed.
 
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Ceallaigh

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One or two verses? I gave you passages from Jesus, the apostles, and Paul. All of them spoke of the END of the aion and of an aion to come. Clearly not eternal. But, you've made it clear that you give priority to your sources over the words of Jesus and the apostles

Have you actually looked at the Greek text? Aionas only appears once, not twice.

καὶ βασιλεύσει ἐπὶ τὸν οἶκον Ἰακὼβ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ τῆς βασιλείας αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἔσται τέλος. (Lk. 1:33 GNT)

As I've shown, your reasoning is flawed.

I think he's basically on autopilot posting canned responses like a bot.

However what you're responding with is excellent material for the audience to examine.
 
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Der Alte

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One or two verses? I gave you passages from Jesus, the apostles, and Paul. All of them spoke of the END of the aion and of an aion to come. Clearly not eternal. But, you've made it clear that you give priority to your sources over the words of Jesus and the apostles
Have you actually looked at the Greek text? Aionas only appears once, not twice.
καὶ βασιλεύσει ἐπὶ τὸν οἶκον Ἰακὼβ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ τῆς βασιλείας αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἔσται τέλος.
(Lk. 1:33 GNT)
As I've shown, your reasoning is flawed
.
I give priority to the preponderance of evidence 26 verses vs 1-2 NOT non-Biblical sources as you imply. No you haven't shown anything about my reasoning, you don't know the difference between "aion" eternity and "aionios" eternal, everlasting etc. "Aion" is the word Lk 1:33 NOT aionios.
 
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Butch5

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I give priority to the preponderance of evidence 26 verses vs 1-2 NOT non-Biblical sources as you imply. No you haven't shown anything about my reasoning, you don't know the difference between "aion" eternity and "aionios" eternal, everlasting etc. "Aion" is the word Lk 1:33 NOT aionios.
Aion and aionios are the same world. Aion is the noun form, aionios is the adjective form. It's like spirit and spiritual. Spirit is the noun form, spiritual is the adjective form. The meaning doesn't change. It's the same word, the only difference is how it's used in a sentence.
 
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Butch5

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I think he's basically on autopilot posting canned responses like a bot.

However what you're responding with is excellent material for the audience to examine.
Thanks. Yeah, we've had this discussion several times. There are so many passages that indicate that aion doesn't mean eternal. People pick a few that they can claim mean eternal and camp out on them. Here's another that shows aion isn't eternal.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7 KJV)

Jude says that Sodom and Gomorrah were an example of aionios fire. It's easy enough to go over to the middle east and see if those two cities are still burning. They're obviously not, thus aion doesn't mean eternal.
 
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chad kincham

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Show me the Scripture that states that (from Jesus or Paul teaching that).

Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’

Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’

Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Next:

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments
 
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chad kincham

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If this phrase means "hell" then why didn't Jesus or Paul (or any of the disciples) ever teach that the Lake of Fire is a place of everlasting punishment in the afterlife? You'd expect that to be their main focus if that were the case - and we'd have that teaching recorded for us in the Scripture.....but I don't see it.

Hell is thrown into the lake of fire, and the smoke of their torment goes up forever in the lake.

Hell is the jail the damned are held in, until the judge sentences them to eternity in the lake of fire.,
 
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timothyu

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Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
It may be worthwhile to note that while eternal life clarifies a conscious existence, eternal punishment does not. Until Jesus, there was no hope for eternal life for anyone. Dead, done, over. Likewise for those not worthy of the Kingdom, they will become no more, with no chance ever again at life. That punishment is eternal. Why would the unworthy receive the same reward of eternal life as the worthy? This of course might irk some who are hoping for revenge/physical torment upon the evil of this world (or just their next door neighbour), but they better be careful what they wish for, because that thinking just removed them from the Kingdom also.. and they have judged themselves.
 
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Der Alte

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Thanks. Yeah, we've had this discussion several times. There are so many passages that indicate that aion doesn't mean eternal. People pick a few that they can claim mean eternal and camp out on them. Here's another that shows aion isn't eternal.

I posted 26 verses from the NT where the writer describes/defines the Greek word "aionios" by other adjectives/phrases as eternal, everlasting. The few other times that "aionios" is used to refer to something that is not or cannot be "eternal" there are no other words which define/describe "aionios."
Here are two examples from my post. Which you heretofore have ignored.

John 3:15-16
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιος] life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιος] life.
In these two verses Jesus paralleled "aionios life" with "should not perish," twice.
If "aionios" does not mean "eternal/everlasting" then Jesus lied, twice, because in a finite age those who follow Jesus will eventually die. But Jesus said twice that "aionios" means "shall not perish." Is Jesus a liar?

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7 KJV)
Jude says that Sodom and Gomorrah were an example of aionios fire. It's easy enough to go over to the middle east and see if those two cities are still burning. They're obviously not, thus aion doesn't mean eternal.
That's right "eternal fire" NOT "eternal suffering" or "eternal vengeance!" How do we reconcile this verse with the 26 verses I quoted and which you ignored? Where did the Sodom/Gomorrah fire originate? In heaven and we know it is no longer burning is Sodom etc. Since it originated in heaven where OBTW it had no fuel to keep it burning perhaps God took it back to heaven. Now this verse reconciles with Joh 3:15-16 and the other 24 verses I quoted.
Eze 21:31 I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath,
Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire?
Jer 21:12 lest my fury go out like fire,
Jer 4:4 lest my fury come forth like fire,
Eze 22:21 blow upon you in the fire of my wrath,
Eze 22:31 I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath:
Eze 36:5 saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy
Eze 38:19 in the fire of my wrath
Zep 3:8 for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
 
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Der Alte

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It may be worthwhile to note that while eternal life clarifies a conscious existence, eternal punishment does not. Until Jesus, there was no hope for eternal life for anyone. Dead, done, over. Likewise for those not worthy of the Kingdom, they will become no more, with no chance ever again at life.
You seem to not know scripture.
John 11:24
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Daniel 12:2
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
That punishment is eternal. Why would the unworthy receive the same reward of eternal life as the worthy? This of course might irk some who are hoping for revenge/physical torment upon the evil of this world (or just their next door neighbour), but they better be careful what they wish for, because that thinking just removed them from the Kingdom also.. and they have judged themselves.
Do you actually think that "eternal punishment" is "the same reward of eternal life as the worthy?"
 
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chad kincham

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It may be worthwhile to note that while eternal life clarifies a conscious existence, eternal punishment does not. Until Jesus, there was no hope for eternal life for anyone. Dead, done, over. Likewise for those not worthy of the Kingdom, they will become no more, with no chance ever again at life. That punishment is eternal. Why would the unworthy receive the same reward of eternal life as the worthy? This of course might irk some who are hoping for revenge/physical torment upon the evil of this world (or just their next door neighbour), but they better be careful what they wish for, because that thinking just removed them from the Kingdom also.. and they have judged themselves.
You still can’t destroy a spirit,
 
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Davy

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If this phrase means "hell" then why didn't Jesus or Paul (or any of the disciples) ever teach that the Lake of Fire is a place of everlasting punishment in the afterlife? You'd expect that to be their main focus if that were the case - and we'd have that teaching recorded for us in the Scripture.....but I don't see it.

Notice per the end of Revelation 20, the abode of "hell" goes into... the "lake of fire".

So the "lake of fire" is not the abode of the wicked called "hell".

It's important to look up in the Greek what the word "hell" is in The New Testament Books. It's not always the same. Sometimes it is 'haides', put for the abode of the wicked in the heavenly, other times the Greek is pointing to the future "lake of fire" destruction. In 2 Peter 2:4, it's about 'tartaroo', the deepest part of the abyss of hell where the angels that rebelled are kept in store for the Judgment.
 
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Saint Steven

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It may be worthwhile to note that while eternal life clarifies a conscious existence, eternal punishment does not.
Say what?
How can it be punishment without a conscious existence?

I suppose you are talking about Annihilationism.
 
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Davy

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Sounds like a debatable point.

chad kincham said:
You still can’t destroy a spirit,

Satan doesn't have a flesh body, which means he is a spirit. Yet he goes into the "lake of fire" at the end of Revelation 20.

Ps 37:18-20
18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

KJV
 
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Butch5

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I posted 26 verses from the NT where the writer describes/defines the Greek word "aionios" by other adjectives/phrases as eternal, everlasting. The few other times that "aionios" is used to refer to something that is not or cannot be "eternal" there are no other words which define/describe "aionios."
Here are two examples from my post. Which you heretofore have ignored.

John 3:15-16
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιος] life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιος] life.
In these two verses Jesus paralleled "aionios life" with "should not perish," twice.
If "aionios" does not mean "eternal/everlasting" then Jesus lied, twice, because in a finite age those who follow Jesus will eventually die. But Jesus said twice that "aionios" means "shall not perish." Is Jesus a liar?


That's right "eternal fire" NOT "eternal suffering" or "eternal vengeance!" How do we reconcile this verse with the 26 verses I quoted and which you ignored? Where did the Sodom/Gomorrah fire originate? In heaven and we know it is no longer burning is Sodom etc. Since it originated in heaven where OBTW it had no fuel to keep it burning perhaps God took it back to heaven. Now this verse reconciles with Joh 3:15-16 and the other 24 verses I quoted.
Eze 21:31 I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath,
Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire?
Jer 21:12 lest my fury go out like fire,
Jer 4:4 lest my fury come forth like fire,
Eze 22:21 blow upon you in the fire of my wrath,
Eze 22:31 I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath:
Eze 36:5 saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy
Eze 38:19 in the fire of my wrath
Zep 3:8 for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
Again, what this shows is that you don't understand the word aion. You just ignore the passages that show clearly that aion ends. If the aion ends how do we reconcile John 3:15-16? It's rather simple. The word aion is translated from the Hebrew Olam. The ancient Jews saw life as a path traveled. David said God's word was a light unto his path. Jesus said, narrow is the road that leads to life. Paul told his readers not to walk in the way of the Gentiels. All of this shows a path followed. The Hebrew word olam that's often mistranslated forever meant beyond the horizon. It was basically beyond what one could see. The Jews also saw time this way too. For the Jew olam was essentially that which is out if sight. When the Septuagint was translated from the Hebrew text the translators chose the word aion to translate olam. They were translating the concept of time out of sight. That's what aion was intended to portray. We can see that is pretty accurate since, like olam, it portrays a time whose end is not known. The length of an aion (age) is determined by the context in which it is used. If we were discussing my aion (age) and your aion (age) they'd be different lengths of time, yet both of them are an aion. What scientist call the bronze age and the stone age are different lengths of time. However, they are both an aion. God has laid out different aions in his plan. Jesus spoke of this aion and the aion to come. Now if God desires to give life to people through all of the aions to come, He can. Or, if at some point He chooses to make an aion that doesn't end, He can. If God desides that the final aion is unending He can do that. However, that wouldn't change the meaning of aion. Aion, like age, is a length of time that is determine by something outside of the definition of the word. So, while aion can incorporate something that is eternal, eternal isn't the definition of the word. We can see that clearly from all of the uses where it ends. What's causing confusion for you is that you"re looking at a false dichotomy. It's either eternal or finite. It's not. It's a length of time that is unspecified.
 
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Butch5

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I posted 26 verses from the NT where the writer describes/defines the Greek word "aionios" by other adjectives/phrases as eternal, everlasting. The few other times that "aionios" is used to refer to something that is not or cannot be "eternal" there are no other words which define/describe "aionios."
Here are two examples from my post. Which you heretofore have ignored.

John 3:15-16
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιος] life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιος] life.
In these two verses Jesus paralleled "aionios life" with "should not perish," twice.
If "aionios" does not mean "eternal/everlasting" then Jesus lied, twice, because in a finite age those who follow Jesus will eventually die. But Jesus said twice that "aionios" means "shall not perish." Is Jesus a liar?


That's right "eternal fire" NOT "eternal suffering" or "eternal vengeance!" How do we reconcile this verse with the 26 verses I quoted and which you ignored? Where did the Sodom/Gomorrah fire originate? In heaven and we know it is no longer burning is Sodom etc. Since it originated in heaven where OBTW it had no fuel to keep it burning perhaps God took it back to heaven. Now this verse reconciles with Joh 3:15-16 and the other 24 verses I quoted.
Eze 21:31 I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath,
Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire?
Jer 21:12 lest my fury go out like fire,
Jer 4:4 lest my fury come forth like fire,
Eze 22:21 blow upon you in the fire of my wrath,
Eze 22:31 I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath:
Eze 36:5 saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy
Eze 38:19 in the fire of my wrath
Zep 3:8 for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
OK, if Sodom and Gommrah aren't still burning then the wicked don't burn forever, correct? Thus Eternal Conscious Torment isn't Biblical.
 
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