Are there further chances after death?

Der Alte

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Again, this is simply your personal opinion. NT Wright, who is by almost every account regarded as the world's leading Pauline theologian and scholar, would not agree with you. One of his pet phrases is "life after life after death".
He explains what he means by this in an interview with ABC News:
"Heaven is important but it's not our final destination," he explained. "If you want to say that when someone dies they go to heaven, fine. But that's only a temporary holding pattern that is life after death. And what I'm much more interested in, or the New Testament is much more interested in, is what I've called life after life after death.
I've often put it like this, if somebody you know has been very ill, you say, 'Poor old so and so, he's just a shadow of his former self.' And the extraordinary truth in the New Testament is that if you are in Christ and dwell by the spirit you are just a shadow of your future self," Wright said. "There is a real you to which the present you corresponds as a photocopy corresponds to the glorious original. You know, there is a real you, which God is going to make and it will be more physical -- more real, not less.
We aren't ultimately destined for a spiritual place called heaven. He says that at the end of time as we know it, God will literally remake our physical bodies and return us to a newly restored planet. This is the new Heaven and the new earth spoke about in Revelations 21 which Wright says will materialise when God decides to rebuild and restore the universe "Heaven and earth joined together in a new reality."
In the meantime, we go to heaven to be with Jesus in a fully conscious "life after death" as did the thief on the cross to whom Jesus said "Today you will be with me in paradise". It wouldn't be much of a paradise if the thief simply slept throughout it all.
Interesting. A scholar, any scholar stating his/her unsupported opinion is no more compelling than the opinion of any anonymous person walking down the street.
I do not believe a scholar just because he/she has some letters after his/her name.
 
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Back up there pardner. What evidence does ol' Greg provide for his heretical views? I'll wait I got plenty of time. This is more or less my "job."
Its arguable that he doesn't believe in an eternal hell. I posted some of his own writings several posts back in which he alludes to an eternal hell and I haven't seen anything where he outright denies it.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Interesting. A scholar, any scholar stating his/her unsupported opinion is no more compelling than the opinion of any anonymous person walking down the street.
I do not believe a scholar just because he/she has some letters after his/her name.

1. Nothing is more compelling than an opinion which aligns with your own. Facebook and other www forums, prove it daily.

2. Letters after a name don't impress me much either. On that, we agree.
 
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Der Alte

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1. Nothing is more compelling than an opinion which aligns with your own. Facebook and other www forums, prove it daily.
I do not rely on opinions alone, without grammatical, lexical, historical etc. evidence, even the opinions of scholars.<period. end of sentence> Whether they agree with me or not.
2. Letters after a name don't impress me much either. On that, we agree.
That's a good start.
 
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Hmm

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Its arguable that he doesn't believe in an eternal hell. I posted some of his own writings several posts back in which he alludes to an eternal hell and I haven't seen anything where he outright denies it.

Really? I must have missed them.You may well have posted quotes where he alluded to eternal hell but that's obviously very different from him saying he believes in eternal hell. Just like this post - I've alluded to eternal hell but I don't believe it's scriptural.

So, to conclude, if you have any quotes from Gregory of Nyssa that supports the concept of an eternal hell, please post them in.
 
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Hmm

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Interesting. A scholar, any scholar stating his/her unsupported opinion is no more compelling than the opinion of any anonymous person walking down the street.
I do not believe a scholar just because he/she has some letters after his/her name.

That's a good counter-argument. Let me digest that and get back to you.
 
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Hmm

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Back up there pardner. What evidence does ol' Greg provide for his heretical views? I'll wait I got plenty of time. This is more or less my "job."

Whoa! Stop, halt, freeze! Does this make any sense at all? Just to remind you, I asked you why you think Gregory of Nyssa is a heretic. Is this your reason?
 
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Der Alte

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That's a good counter-argument. Let me digest that and get back to you.
While you are digesting here is something else to digest. Dr. Ilaria Ramelli, who OBTW has letters after her name, is often quoted as "proof" that "aionios" "does not mean eternal, everlasting etc." Her proof is "Origen often spoke about 'after eternal life.'"
The truth is Origen said "after eternal life" only once, but the context has nothing to do with "after eternal life" for people.
 
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Really? I must have missed them.You may well have posted quotes where he alluded to eternal hell but that's obviously very different from him saying he believes in eternal hell. Just like this post - I've alluded to eternal hell but I don't believe it's scriptural.

So, to conclude, if you have any quotes from Gregory of Nyssa that supports the concept of an eternal hell, please post them in.
808 and 811
 
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Undone in one sense, perhaps, but not another. The death of the flesh, or at least changing from a mortal body to an immortal body is still required, so it seems like the flesh can't be cleansed, but must be changed out in some way. Your cancer analogy is probably an apt one, except it is metastasized and there doesn't seem to be a cure for it in this body.

I think your "mortally wounded" description fits well with the scriptures that say we are "dead in our trespasses and sins". That is, we are inescapably going to die without some kind of help. When we believe in Christ, we have new life in Him, but it still isn't applied to our bodies. Our mortal bodies appear to be a lost cause.
Perhaps, though I'm not sure the earthly tent is going to be destroyed in every case as some are still alive when Christ returns. The central point is simply that whatever the atonement achieved, it was not simply a matter of legal book keeping. It effected a real change within the world, and it effects a real change in every believer who truly accepts the gospel. We move from death to life as soon as we believe, though the flesh may still perish.

Back up there pardner. What evidence does ol' Greg provide for his heretical views? I'll wait I got plenty of time. This is more or less my "job."
There's a missing piece, because while universalists love to claim Gregory of Nyssa a look through his actual works doesn't really show that picture. He believed that those who would not give up their wills voluntarily are damned, but that all of humanity would be restored in Christ because the individuals who don't submit to Christ eventually become something other than human. So their souls go to hell, they simply are no longer human souls because what was human in them was redeemed in Christ.
 
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Der Alte

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* * * There's a missing piece, because while universalists love to claim Gregory of Nyssa a look through his actual works doesn't really show that picture. He believed that those who would not give up their wills voluntarily are damned, but that all of humanity would be restored in Christ because the individuals who don't submit to Christ eventually become something other than human. So their souls go to hell, they simply are no longer human souls because what was human in them was redeemed in Christ.
"No longer human souls" Does not sound scriptural to me.
 
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"No longer human souls" Does not sound scriptural to me.
It’s an interesting idea nonetheless. Just thinking about it philosophically. If you don’t have life then you are dead. In our separation perhaps we enter into the antithesis of God, eternally rejecting him bc it is our nature in death. Almost as if evil itself is constantly aware and in rebellion to God, i.e. hell.
 
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"No longer human souls" Does not sound scriptural to me.
It's a product of Alexandria, where there was an emphasis that "all truth is God's truth" so they allowed philosophical approaches so long as they didn't violate Scripture. The point is Gregory of Nyssa is well within the orthodox patristic tradition which continues in the majority of Eastern Orthodox schools of thought today.
 
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It’s an interesting idea nonetheless. Just thinking about it philosophically. If you don’t have life then you are dead. In our separation perhaps we enter into the antithesis of God, eternally rejecting him bc it is our nature in death. Almost as if evil itself is constantly aware and in rebellion to God, i.e. hell.
This is sort of the Scriptural basis of it...the refiner's fire brings out the purest form of what passes through it. The redeemed in Christ are purified according to their new nature, the image of God in Christ. The likeness of the image from Adam is burned off of those who refuse Christ, instead becoming pure malignancy.
 
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While you are digesting here is something else to digest. Dr. Ilaria Ramelli, who OBTW has letters after her name, is often quoted as "proof" that "aionios" "does not mean eternal, everlasting etc." Her proof is "Origen often spoke about 'after eternal life.'"
The truth is Origen said "after eternal life" only once, but the context has nothing to do with "after eternal life" for people.

Aiõnios a complex word and can mean eternal as I've no doubt Ramelli says outside of your quote. She is a very serious Patristic scholar as I'm sure you're aware.

Thomas Talbott says this:
"I think it fair to say that on no occasion of its use in the New Testament does aiõnios carry any implication of unending temporal duration. On three occasions (see Rom 16:25; 2 Tim 1:19; Titus 1:2), this term does combine with the concept of time in such a way as to imply temporal duration; but on each of these occassions, which are clearly exceptional, the context excludes the idea of unending temporal duration. Given its more normal use in the New Testament, where aiõnios refers either to Bid himself or to the possessions, gifts, or actions of God, it appears to have a special religious meaning that has nothing to do with the duration of temporal events."

So aiõnios can mean eternal but only when applied to God. So, for example, external punishment is simply punishment of any duration that has its causal source in the eternal purposes of God. We see this where the fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah is described as "eternal fire" in the letter of Jude. This fire's not still burning is it? Eternal here is a reference to God, meaning that it was a form of divine judgement and it's causal source was God himself. Similarly for eternal hell fire and eternal punishment and the like.
 
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Der Alte

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Aiõnios a complex word and can mean eternal as I've no doubt Ramelli says outside of your quote. She is a very serious Patristic scholar as I'm sure you're aware.
As interesting as your speculation may be I prefer evidence. If you wish to refute my post I would like to see something quoted from some of Ramellis writings which supports your comments. Otherwise the answer my friend is blowing in the wind.
Thomas Talbott says this:
"I think it fair to say that on no occasion of its use in the New Testament does aiõnios carry any implication of unending temporal duration. On three occasions (see Rom 16:25; 2 Tim 1:19; Titus 1:2), this term does combine with the concept of time in such a way as to imply temporal duration; but on each of these occassions, which are clearly exceptional, the context excludes the idea of unending temporal duration. Given its more normal use in the New Testament, where aiõnios refers either to Bid himself or to the possessions, gifts, or actions of God, it appears to have a special religious meaning that has nothing to do with the duration of temporal events."
I am not interested in the unsupported opinions of Talbott or any other scholar.

Romans 16:25, 2 Timothy 1:19 cited above do not mention "aionios." Titus 1:2 mentions "aionios" but does not say anything about the duration.
So aiõnios can mean eternal but only when applied to God. So, for example, external punishment is simply punishment of any duration that has its causal source in the eternal purposes of God.
Where is this so-called "rule" written that "aiõnios can mean eternal but only when applied to God?"

I studied Greek at the graduate level more than 3 decades ago and I have never found that rule in any credible Greek lexicon or grammar. It has been concocted to make scripture fit various heterodox doctrines.
If "aionios" means eternal then it means "eternal" all the time not just once in a while.
We see this where the fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah is described as "eternal fire" in the letter of Jude. This fire's not still burning is it? Eternal here is a reference to God, meaning that it was a form of divine judgement and it's causal source was God himself. Similarly for eternal hell fire and eternal punishment and the like
Irrelevant the meaning of a word is never determined by one verse. A few years ago I decided to research every occurrence of "aionios" in the NT.
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. Jesus never uses “aionios” to refer something ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
In twenty four [24] of the following verses aion and aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”
[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]​
In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.”
“Aionas” by definition here means eternity.
[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]​
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​
In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​
In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​
In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.
[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​
In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.


[Character Limit. Continued next post]
 
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Der Alte

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[Previous post continued]

Paul used the word “aionios” eleven [11] times. It is translated “eternal/everlasting” 20 times and world 3 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.
[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​
In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​
In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]​
In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.​
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios]​
In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios]​
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life.​
In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.​
In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​
In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​
In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[24]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​
In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”
[25]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.​
In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
[26]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
"Aionios" is never defined or described as a period less than eternal with other adjectives or phrases as in the above verses
= = = = = = =
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.
 
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