Preterism-phony as a Ford Corvette

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Timtofly

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Of course not. I just said that humanity has inherited that corruptible state from a fallen Adam, which gives evidence of having been corrupted even from conception onward. "Corruptible", simply means "subjected to corruption". The physical body itself is not evil, but it has been affected by evil, much the same way that radiation poisoning effects the physical body, which is given a certain death sentence from that exposure.

God has taken pity on our physical bodies' poisoned existence, and has designed a complete salvation inheritance for His children - body, soul, and spirit - by incrementally saving all three things from death's effects.
There is that big "but" that indicates otherwise. The flesh is corruptible because it is dead, not because it is subjected to death. A being cannot skip the death stage and go immediately to being incorruptible. The appointment with death is the here and now.

A soul will leave this appointed death and spend eternity some place. The soul will not return to this appointed death, not even to be judged. Then comes the judgment, and the soul continues after that judgment. Death comes first, and then judgment. That is all that is being described in that verse.
 
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robycop3

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You need to do a more intense study of the terms scripture uses to indicate something with a permanent effect. Scripture uses versions of this term "aionas aionon" in other places as well, when referring to age-lasting events. Hannah told her husband Elkanah that she would nurse Samuel until he could be brought to the Lord's house in Shiloh, and could "there abide FOREVER", yet Samuel eventually died, did he not?

Didn't Isaiah prophesy that the land of his people would be abandoned, and that "the forts and towers shall be for dens FOREVER, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks: UNTIL the spirit be poured upon us from on high..."? Here we have a "FOREVER" condition lasting only "UNTIL" something else happened, ie, the end of the 70 years of captivity.
There's no such ending for hell in Scripture, so it's forever.

Wasn't the high priesthood promised to the descendants of Phinehas "the covenant of an EVERLASTING PRIESTHOOD" in Numbers 25:13? Yet we know that Christ's high priesthood eventually changed the law and established HIM as the only high priest necessary, setting aside the "everlasting" Phinehas' family covenant.
And Jesus is the EVERLASTING High Priest.

The nation of Idumea in Isaiah 34:8-10 was also promised an identical punishment as in Revelation 14:11 "And the streams therof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust therof into brimstone, and the land therof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up FOR EVER: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it FOR EVER AND EVER." This is an age-enduring punishment for Idumea, which has never risen to existence again from one generation to another since then. However, the literal smoke of its destruction has long since dissipated.
While I don't know if any more Idumeans (Edomites) still exist, not knowing their old national ID, (same as the "lost 10 tribes of Israel), but who's to say that prophecy isn't yet future, same as are the eschatological ones are?
 
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There's no such ending for hell in Scripture, so it's forever.

You are still mistakenly identifying the "Lake of Fire" as being the same thing as Hell. ITS NOT. "Hell" and "the Grave" were both thrown INTO the Lake of Fire in Revelation 20:14. Hell - no matter how you define it - can't be thrown into itself.
 
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There is that big "but" that indicates otherwise. The flesh is corruptible because it is dead, not because it is subjected to death. A being cannot skip the death stage and go immediately to being incorruptible. The appointment with death is the here and now.

A soul will leave this appointed death and spend eternity some place. The soul will not return to this appointed death, not even to be judged. Then comes the judgment, and the soul continues after that judgment. Death comes first, and then judgment. That is all that is being described in that verse.

You are missing the direct correlation being made between Hebrews 9:27 and Hebrews 9:28.

The Hebrews 9:27-28 verses are comparing two things that are exactly alike; the ONE-TIME DEATH APPOINTMENT for MANKIND, and the ONE-TIME DEATH OF CHRIST WHO WAS OFFERED ONCE to bear the sins of many. These two "deaths" are linked together as being reflective of each other. A one-time physical death experience for Christ's body is a pattern for the one-time physical death experience for the bodies of mankind, followed by a judgment.
 
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Timtofly

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You are missing the direct correlation being made between Hebrews 9:27 and Hebrews 9:28.

The Hebrews 9:27-28 verses are comparing two things that are exactly alike; the ONE-TIME DEATH APPOINTMENT for MANKIND, and the ONE-TIME DEATH OF CHRIST WHO WAS OFFERED ONCE to bear the sins of many. These two "deaths" are linked together as being reflective of each other. A one-time physical death experience for Christ's body is a pattern for the one-time physical death experience for the bodies of mankind, followed by a judgment.
We know Adam is the likeness of death. What God did in the Atonement was by death, making everlasting life possible.

Jesus Christ was the example of the judgment of death, not to focus on the death itself. Christ passed through death and the judgment. The Resurrection is our hope, not the death nor the judgment.
 
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Ed Parenteau

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The generation who lives when the fig tree blooms.
Or as Luke says: 21:29Then Jesus told them a parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31So also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.
Back to Matthew24:32Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.
First of all, notice the pronouns used. In this case all of the pronouns are used replace the noun "disciples". Therefore, this verse can be understood like this: 33So also, when you(the disciples) see all these things, you(the disciples) will know that He is near, right at the door.
So, lets see if the disciples say His coming is near and right at the door.
James 5:7Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer awaits the precious fruit of the soil—how patient he is for the fall and spring rains. 8You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!
Rev 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads, and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things which are written in it; for the time is near.
Rev 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. (Which is the opposite of what Daniel said: 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up these words and seal the book until the time of the end. Many will roam to and fro, and knowledge will increase.” Fulfilled here: Romans 10:18
But I ask, did they not hear? Indeed they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."
And here: Colossians 1:10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

You objected that the church was given the responsibility of the gospel after the Jews were responsible for the Law, and now you change the subject.
Don't have a clue how you came to that.
Do you think the church went obsolete by 70AD, and God came and handed the responsibility to somebody else, at that point? If not the church, who is currently responsible?
No. At that time the old covenant world became obsolete and the children of God were revealed and the church exploded from almost nothing to some 34million by 300ad. Thank God we are the righteousness of Christ and are perfect in the sight of God. Our sins are remembered no more, therefore we can't be the wicked servant. We are covered by His blood.

Seems to me the emphasis is placed on 70AD, and not the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It was at the Cross when God came down and took that responsibility away from Israel, and gave it to the church.
Hagar, representing the old covenant world would be cast out Galatians 4:21-31, and salvation would finally come at His second coming. Hebrews 9
 
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robycop3

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You are still mistakenly identifying the "Lake of Fire" as being the same thing as Hell. ITS NOT. "Hell" and "the Grave" were both thrown INTO the Lake of Fire in Revelation 20:14. Hell - no matter how you define it - can't be thrown into itself.
Sorry; that hippo won't fly!

Calling HADES/SHEOL "hell" is a KJV mistranslation. Gehenna, the lake of fire , is hell. Your belief in the KJVO myth has led you into more error.
 
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Sorry; that hippo won't fly!

Calling HADES/SHEOL "hell" is a KJV mistranslation. Gehenna, the lake of fire , is hell. Your belief in the KJVO myth has led you into more error.

Robycop3, I have not been one of those limiting a reading to the KJV only since 20 years and more ago when I escaped a cult church which held that viewpoint. So your "KJVO myth" accusation against me does not apply.

No matter which version you use, it has Hades / Sheol / Hell being thrown INTO the Lake of Fire. This means they cannot be the same thing as the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 20:14 was not the first time that this happened. It was the second time. That's why it's called "The Second Death". Back in the time just before the Babylonian invasion, God predicted that the rulers at Jerusalem - those who thought they had made a covenant with Death and Hades / Sheol / Hell - would be overcome by those disasters. "...Then your covenant with Death will be annulled, and your agreement with Sheol will not stand; when the overwhelming scourge passes through, you will be beaten down by it." (Isaiah 28:14-18 ESV).

That Babylonian invasion by Nebuchadnezzar in 586 BC was the FIRST DEATH of Jerusalem when the entire nation went into captivity and "died". The "SECOND DEATH" of Jerusalem and the entire nation took place at the close of AD 70, when Death and Hades / Sheol / Hell again overwhelmed them.
 
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Prets simply CANNOT provide any **PROOF** that the prophesied events they SAY have occurred, actually HAVE already occurred. Why can't they provide any proof? Because those events HAVEN'T yet occurred! Simple, huh?

I have done so before on several websites besides this one, and will continue to do so. You simply don't like the historical connections, and so dismiss them, which is your right if you so choose. But it's a bit disingenuous to assert that no proof has been supplied. It has. You just don't like it.
 
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robycop3

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I have done so before on several websites besides this one, and will continue to do so. You simply don't like the historical connections, and so dismiss them, which is your right if you so choose. But it's a bit disingenuous to assert that no proof has been supplied. It has. You just don't like it.
No, it HASN'T. All you ever posted as "proof" is imagination, guesswork, & goofy stuff such as you just posted in the "Full Pret Safe House" sub-forum.
You cannot tell us the names of the beast or false prophet.
You cannot describe the marka the beast.
You cannot show us when the abomination of desolation occurred.
You cannot show us when the worldwide great trib occurred.
You cannot show us when all life dies in the sea.
And, most of all, you cannot show us when Jesus returned & was seen by all.
 
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Robycop3, I have answered all of the above questions in detail for you on the other GCF website where you and I have exchanged comments before, and I am continuing to repeat the same information as I have available time on this website as well. Have you not been paying attention? Here you go again with the answers, but without the proof in this case, because I have workroom deadlines and cannot go into full explanations repeatedly every time you demand it.

#1) The Sea Beast was in existence since 607 BC with Nebuchadnezzar's first deportation of the Jews from Jerusalem (Daniel, his 3 friends, etc. - the "good figs", as God called them). The Sea Beast during its then-current Roman phase was 666 years old as of the time John was writing Revelation.

The Land Beast was the Judean religious leadership that continually spoke lies, like a dragon, and was led by the two-horned power structure of the Sanhedrin - the Pharisees and the Sadducees.

The Scarlet Beast was the independent kingdom nation of Israel, once established back under the Maccabean victories, subsequently dissolved about 80 years later, and re-emerged to existence once again in AD 66 with the Zealot rebellion launched against Rome when they once more began to operate as a sovereign nation, minting their own currency.

#2) The Mark of the Beast was the Tyrian shekel minted in Jerusalem beginning in 19 BC, and lasting until AD 66 when the Zealots took over and started minting their own currency.

#3) The abomination of desolation as Christ defined it was "Jerusalem surrounded by armies", which was in AD 66 when the Zealot armies and the Roman armies squared off against each other at Jerusalem.

#4) The world wide tribulation, as Revelation 3:10 tells us, was "about to come upon all the world" in the days when John was writing. And that year of John writing Revelation was at a time between late AD 59 and early AD 60, just before the AD 60 Laodicean earthquake. This world-wide tribulation was called "the beginning of sorrows" - not to be confused with the "Great Tribulation" which launched the "Days of Vengeance" upon the Jews themselves for that generation's rejection of their prophesied Messiah.

#5) All living souls died in the sea in the Roman attack upon the coastal city of Joppa, when the Jewish seafaring pirates were all killed by a combination of the storm that wrecked their vessels and the Romans who slew all those who made it to shore.

#6) Jesus returned in that first-century generation, as He foretold, to set foot on the Mount of Olives across from Jerusalem. Specifically, every eye of those who pierced Him saw His return on that Pentecost Day in AD 70. Those who saw this return consequently either died within Jerusalem of starvation, plague, or the sword, or they were taken captive as slaves to die in Roman arenas, or in servitude. The Christians were warned by Christ to leave the city when they first saw it surrounded in AD 66, and so were not around to be the eye-witnesses of that return.

You yourself may consider this to be "goofy" if you wish, but that does not change the archaeological evidence, the historical records, as well as the scriptural accounts with all their manifold time markers that tell us when these things happened.
 
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parousia70

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Prets simply CANNOT provide any **PROOF** that the prophesied events they SAY have occurred, actually HAVE already occurred.

Yet you yourself believe and proclaim that there are FULFILLED prophesies that you yourself Can't PROVE have already occurred either....

Let me guess....It's only OK when you do it?
 
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Jipsah

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Prets simply CANNOT provide any **PROOF** that the prophesied events they SAY have occurred, actually HAVE already occurred.
You're right. There's no **PROOF** that the Temple was destroyed. It's probably hidden under a tarp somewhere. And whereever it is, sacrifice is obviously still going on there, the sacrificial livestock smuggled in via cars with tinted windows.

BTW mate, how many centuries in a "generation"? :cool:
 
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robycop3

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Robycop3, I have answered all of the above questions in detail for you on the other GCF website where you and I have exchanged comments before, and I am continuing to repeat the same information as I have available time on this website as well. Have you not been paying attention? Here you go again with the answers, but without the proof in this case, because I have workroom deadlines and cannot go into full explanations repeatedly every time you demand it.

#1) The Sea Beast was in existence since 607 BC with Nebuchadnezzar's first deportation of the Jews from Jerusalem (Daniel, his 3 friends, etc. - the "good figs", as God called them). The Sea Beast during its then-current Roman phase was 666 years old as of the time John was writing Revelation.

The Land Beast was the Judean religious leadership that continually spoke lies, like a dragon, and was led by the two-horned power structure of the Sanhedrin - the Pharisees and the Sadducees.

The Scarlet Beast was the independent kingdom nation of Israel, once established back under the Maccabean victories, subsequently dissolved about 80 years later, and re-emerged to existence once again in AD 66 with the Zealot rebellion launched against Rome when they once more began to operate as a sovereign nation, minting their own currency.

#2) The Mark of the Beast was the Tyrian shekel minted in Jerusalem beginning in 19 BC, and lasting until AD 66 when the Zealots took over and started minting their own currency.

#3) The abomination of desolation as Christ defined it was "Jerusalem surrounded by armies", which was in AD 66 when the Zealot armies and the Roman armies squared off against each other at Jerusalem.

#4) The world wide tribulation, as Revelation 3:10 tells us, was "about to come upon all the world" in the days when John was writing. And that year of John writing Revelation was at a time between late AD 59 and early AD 60, just before the AD 60 Laodicean earthquake. This world-wide tribulation was called "the beginning of sorrows" - not to be confused with the "Great Tribulation" which launched the "Days of Vengeance" upon the Jews themselves for that generation's rejection of their prophesied Messiah.

#5) All living souls died in the sea in the Roman attack upon the coastal city of Joppa, when the Jewish seafaring pirates were all killed by a combination of the storm that wrecked their vessels and the Romans who slew all those who made it to shore.

#6) Jesus returned in that first-century generation, as He foretold, to set foot on the Mount of Olives across from Jerusalem. Specifically, every eye of those who pierced Him saw His return on that Pentecost Day in AD 70. Those who saw this return consequently either died within Jerusalem of starvation, plague, or the sword, or they were taken captive as slaves to die in Roman arenas, or in servitude. The Christians were warned by Christ to leave the city when they first saw it surrounded in AD 66, and so were not around to be the eye-witnesses of that return.

You yourself may consider this to be "goofy" if you wish, but that does not change the archaeological evidence, the historical records, as well as the scriptural accounts with all their manifold time markers that tell us when these things happened.
This is all speculation, imagination, guesswork, & downright GOOFY.

The mark of the beast will be in the right hand or forehead. No coins were embedded in those places.

"Every eye" did NOT see the return of Jesus, as it hasn't yet occurred. When he returns, He will be here to stay, & will rule the whole world for 1K years until He steps aside for His Father.

The AOD will be when the antichrist (one man!) will sit in the coming new temple in Jerusalem & proclaim himself to be God.

The days of vengeance were against that one generation of Jews; the great trib will be worldwide, as Jesus had John write.

I hope you pray to Jesus to send the HOLY SPIRIT to purge that silly stuff from your psyche, that you study some history, and, most of all, STUDY SCRIPTURE. Someone has made a garbage landfill of your theology.
 
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robycop3

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Yet you yourself believe and proclaim that there are FULFILLED prophesies that you yourself Can't PROVE have already occurred either....

Let me guess....It's only OK when you do it?
The remains of previous incarnations of Jerusalem have been found by archaeologists, including both the Babylonian & Roman destructions, plus, the remains of the temple. The Roman destruction is found in Roman records. But there's no evidence at all for the occurrence of the eschatological events, since they simply haven't yet occurred. You cannot prove a bit differently.
 
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robycop3

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You're right. There's no **PROOF** that the Temple was destroyed. It's probably hidden under a tarp somewhere. And whereever it is, sacrifice is obviously still going on there, the sacrificial livestock smuggled in via cars with tinted windows.

BTW mate, how many centuries in a "generation"? :cool:
There's PLENTY of proof the temple was destroyed; some of its stone is still at the site, & its steps are still intact. Most of the stone was carted off to be used elsewhere.

And the Jews have all the materials gathered to swiftly build a new temple when the time is right. Just ask some of them!
 
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parousia70

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The remains of previous incarnations of Jerusalem have been found by archaeologists, including both the Babylonian & Roman destructions, plus, the remains of the temple. The Roman destruction is found in Roman records. But there's no evidence at all for the occurrence of the eschatological events, since they simply haven't yet occurred. You cannot prove a bit differently.

Please prove this fulfilled event happened:

2 Samuel 22:8-16
8“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.

14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

You believe this is FULFILLED.
PROVE IT.
 
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robycop3

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Please prove this fulfilled event happened:

2 Samuel 22:8-16
8“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.

14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

You believe this is FULFILLED.
PROVE IT.
 
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robycop3

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Please prove this fulfilled event happened:

2 Samuel 22:8-16
8“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.

14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

You believe this is FULFILLED.
PROVE IT.
EASY!
A volcanic eruption.
 
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