20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

Guojing · Sep 16, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Looks like you're taking Galatians 2:9 a bit too literally. We already know that Peter did preach to some Gentiles like Cornelius and his family. And, have you somehow never read this:

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

How can saying they "in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God" apply to Israelite believers? That makes no sense since they obviously were the people of God in times past. Peter clearly was talking to Gentile believers here because Gentiles are the ones who were not the people of God before Christ came but then they were after He came. Just as Paul taught:

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

If you insist, verse 9 already tells you Peter could not be referring to gentile believers, since he is quoting from Exodus 19:6

Guojing · Sep 16, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
There is present salvation for individual Israelites. Any of them who have put their faith in Christ are saved.

Do you know what Acts 3:19-21 is saying?

sovereigngrace · Sep 16, 2021

keras said:
Wrong.
The Last Trumpet sound will be call up the dead and all those still alive after the Millennium, to stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
Proved by how it is only then that Death will be no more. I Corinthians 15:54-55, Revelation 21:4

The last trumpet ushers in inccoruption. There is no death in the age to come. Luke 20:27-33 records: “Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him, Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.”

Christ replies in Luke 20:34-36: “The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

Luke 20:27-36 clearly demonstrates that the defining moment of change between this age and the age to come is the time of the Lord’s return and the physical resurrection.

Luke adds more meat on the bones compared to what Matthew shares in his parallel account. Luke shows Christ rebuking the cunningness of the Sadducees and their attempt to deny a future physical resurrection at His return.

It is impossible to miss the constant comparison between “this world” and “that world” or “this age” and “that age.” Those who live in this current evil age are described as “the children of this age” but those who are depicted as being “worthy to obtain that age” to come are described exclusively as “the children of God, being the children of the resurrection” and as being “equal unto the angels.” One must be suitably qualified in order inherit the new world to come. Those that are worthy to obtain that age are not mortals and not sinners; they are rather glorified saints – who incidentally never marry or die.

The contrast here moves from: ‘marriage’ to ‘no marriage’, ‘death’ to ‘no death’. Marriage disappears! Death disappears! The turning point is the glorious coming of Christ and the resurrection that accompanies it. If words carry any meaning in Scripture then the whole Premillennial scheme falls apart with such a passage. After all, in their paradigm, sin, corruption, death and rebellion continues on unabated in the supposed Premillennial ‘ages to come’.

sovereigngrace · Sep 16, 2021

keras said:
Wrong.
The Last Trumpet sound will be call up the dead and all those still alive after the Millennium, to stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
Proved by how it is only then that Death will be no more. I Corinthians 15:54-55, Revelation 21:4

Constantly throughout the Word of God we see that “this present evil age” is equated with suffering and pain. The age to come is depicted as an eternal rest and safety. Romans 8:16-18 explains (I will quote the NKJV), “The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time [Gr. Kairos] are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall [Gr. mello or hereafter] be revealed in us.”

There is a constant tension throughout the New Testament in regard to the imperfection of this age and the perfection of the age to come, the temporal nature of our current age and the eternal character of the age to come. The theme is consistent and well-defined. The phrase “this present time” found in this reading closely corresponds with the synonymous expression “this world/age” found throughout the New Testament to describe the here-and-now. It is a saying that is normally used when contrasting the imperfection of this current life to the bliss and glory of the approaching eternal state – “the world / age to come.” In fact, Scripture only knows of two ages – “this age” and the “age to come,” Scripture make no mention of, or allowance for, any imperfect semi-glorious/semi-corrupt transitional age in-between “this present time” or age and the eternal “age to come,” as Premils argue.

In this reading, Paul is simply comparing the testing and trials that God’s people currently endure in this current life, which is plagued with all the consequences of the fall, and the joy of the eternal state when Christ comes that is totally purged of the curse. The portrayal of this age correlates with Galatians 1:4 that labels “this present time” of “sufferings” as “this present evil age.” Paul speaks of a time when “the children of God” will be “glorified together” at His return. He assures his audience that the difficulties of this life are nothing “to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us” when Christ appears. His whole focus is the glory that will be finally and eternally realized at Christ’s return.

Romans 8:19-23 continues (I will quote it from the NKJV as it is more accurate): “For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God (that is the glorification of fallen creation). For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption [Gr. phthora or decay] into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body (that is the glorification of God elect).”

God in His providence and infinite wisdom has ordained a day when He will finally bring time, evil and the bondage of corruption to an end. This passage speaks of an approaching climactic event in history that will eventually and eternally release all creation from a position of current anguish and despair to a place of total liberation and relief. In fact, there can be no doubt; the central focus of this whole passage is the yearning of “the whole creation” for the day when “the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” There is indeed a termination to the “bondage of corruption” – it is the one and only future all-consummating Coming of Christ.

St. Helens · Sep 16, 2021

ADMIN HAT ON

Just reminder - have a civil discussion instead of trying to egg members on.

ADMIN HAT OFF

Timtofly · Sep 16, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
The last trumpet is exactly that - it is the last. It is the end. It is the final trumpet. The last trumpet is a trumpet of war. The last trump ushers in complete and wholesale destruction for all those left behind.

We find the phrase “battle trumpet” in 2 Samuel 2:28, 15:10, 18:16, 20:1, 20:22. This is the trumpet that spells the end.

Numbers 10:9

And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the LORD your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies.

Joshua 6:20

So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city.

Judges 7:22

And the three hundred blew the trumpets, and the LORD set every man's sword against his fellow, even throughout all the host: and the host fled to Bethshittah in Zererath, and to the border of Abelmeholah, unto Tabbath.

Nehemiah 4:20

so wherever you hear the sound of the trumpet, come over to us, and our God will fight for us!"

Ezekiel 7:14

They have blown the trumpet, even to make all ready; but none goeth to the battle: for my wrath is upon all the multitude thereof.

Jeremiah 4:19

My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.

Jeremiah 4:21

How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?

Jeremiah 6:1

O ye children of Benjamin, gather yourselves to flee out of the midst of Jerusalem, and blow the trumpet in Tekoa, and set up a sign of fire in Bethhaccerem: for evil appeareth out of the north, and great destruction.

Jeremiah 42:14

Saying, No; but we will go into the land of Egypt, where we shall see no war, nor hear the sound of the trumpet, nor have hunger of bread; and there will we dwell:

Jeremiah 49:2

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will cause an alarm of war to be heard in Rabbah of the Ammonites; and it shall be a desolate heap, and her daughters shall be burned with fire: then shall Israel be heir unto them that were his heirs, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 51:27

Set ye up a standard in the land, blow the trumpet among the nations, prepare the nations against her, call together against her the kingdoms of Ararat, Minni, and Ashchenaz; appoint a captain against her; cause the horses to come up as the rough caterpillers.

Amos 2:2

But I will send a fire upon Moab, and it shall devour the palaces of Kerioth: and Moab shall die with tumult, with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet:

Zephaniah 1:16

A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

Hosea 5:8

"Sound the trumpet in Gibeah, and the alarm in Ramah. Cry out at Beth-aven Go out, Benjamin!

Zechariah 9:14

And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

Christ comes to gather. Christ has to be on this earth to do this gathering. This is not a virtual thought exercise.

Do you refute the actual presence of Christ on earth?

Since Christ is bringing this last Trump of God with Him, along with the angels, at what point is Christ not on the earth?

Timtofly · Sep 16, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Constantly throughout the Word of God we see that “this present evil age” is equated with suffering and pain. The age to come is depicted as an eternal rest and safety. Romans 8:16-18 explains (I will quote the NKJV), “The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time [Gr. Kairos] are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall [Gr. mello or hereafter] be revealed in us.”

There is a constant tension throughout the New Testament in regard to the imperfection of this age and the perfection of the age to come, the temporal nature of our current age and the eternal character of the age to come. The theme is consistent and well-defined. The phrase “this present time” found in this reading closely corresponds with the synonymous expression “this world/age” found throughout the New Testament to describe the here-and-now. It is a saying that is normally used when contrasting the imperfection of this current life to the bliss and glory of the approaching eternal state – “the world / age to come.” In fact, Scripture only knows of two ages – “this age” and the “age to come,” Scripture make no mention of, or allowance for, any imperfect semi-glorious/semi-corrupt transitional age in-between “this present time” or age and the eternal “age to come,” as Premils argue.

In this reading, Paul is simply comparing the testing and trials that God’s people currently endure in this current life, which is plagued with all the consequences of the fall, and the joy of the eternal state when Christ comes that is totally purged of the curse. The portrayal of this age correlates with Galatians 1:4 that labels “this present time” of “sufferings” as “this present evil age.” Paul speaks of a time when “the children of God” will be “glorified together” at His return. He assures his audience that the difficulties of this life are nothing “to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us” when Christ appears. His whole focus is the glory that will be finally and eternally realized at Christ’s return.

Romans 8:19-23 continues (I will quote it from the NKJV as it is more accurate): “For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God (that is the glorification of fallen creation). For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption [Gr. phthora or decay] into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body (that is the glorification of God elect).”

God in His providence and infinite wisdom has ordained a day when He will finally bring time, evil and the bondage of corruption to an end. This passage speaks of an approaching climactic event in history that will eventually and eternally release all creation from a position of current anguish and despair to a place of total liberation and relief. In fact, there can be no doubt; the central focus of this whole passage is the yearning of “the whole creation” for the day when “the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” There is indeed a termination to the “bondage of corruption” – it is the one and only future all-consummating Coming of Christ.

Jesus was referring to death when talking about being as the angels. That was the question, not the resurrection. You are basing your interpretation on the faulty ideology of the Pharisees. The age that Jesus described started at the Cross, but is referring to the resurrection into Paradise that happened the week of the Cross. Jesus was not talking about an event still future to even us. Those who have been in Paradise for the last 1991 years are already as the angels, and do not marry nor procreate with each other. Believe it or not, there is currently a physical kingdom in Paradise. The majority of the church is already there enjoying those physical aspects of that kingdom.

Still not the 1000 year reign that starts at the Second Coming.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 16, 2021

keras said:
As the Jews remained under the Law, their sacrifices and offerings did have significance before and after Jesus' Advent.

What significance did they have after His first coming?

Do you have this passage in your Bible:

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Christ's sacrifice is what put an end to the old covenant and ushered in the new covenant. There was no more any purpose for the old covenant sacrifices and offerings after His death and resurrection. The veil of the temple tearing in two signified that.

Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; 6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, my God.’” 8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Prophecy clearly states that a new Temple will be built and offerings and sacrifices will again be made in it. BEFORE Jesus Returns. Ezekiel 40 to 46

You clearly are contradicting scripture like the Hebrews 10 passage I quoted above by believing that. In Ezekiel 45:15-17 it says the purpose of those sacrifices and sin offerings would be for the atonement of the people of Israel. Why would that be necessary in light of Christ's sacrifice that was made "once for all"? Explain that.

But it is! Jesus remains on the throne when Satan is released for his short season near the end of the Millennium. Those who rebel against Him will be cremated and Everlasting Righteousness will continue into Eternity.

You have to be kidding. Having a number as the sand of the sea rebelling against Christ is a whole lot of wickedness going on. Everlasting righteousness? Hardly. You can't just act as if Satan's little season can be ignored.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 16, 2021

Timtofly said:
Then all humanity including Israel was that way if you are that strict at being dispensational like Paul. There has always been hope. Just not the message itself.

Are you suggesting that you think Paul was wrong in what he said in Ephesians 2:11-13? I'm simply going by what he clearly said there. Why would you not want to accept what Paul taught?

Spiritual Jew · Sep 16, 2021

Timtofly said:
There is nothing in the OT that Paul is addressing concerning numbered Trumpets other than the feast of Trumpets. But it is certainly not corroborating Revelation, as Paul was not quoting Revelation.

I'm not saying that Paul was quoting Revelation. I told you that.

Paul was quoting Jesus when Jesus said He was bringing the angels and the Trump of God.

"He will send out his angels with a great shofar; and they will gather together his chosen people from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Isaiah 27:12-13

"On that day Adonai will beat out the grain
between the Euphrates River and the Vadi of Egypt; and you will be gathered, one by one,
people of Isra’el! On that day a great shofar will sound. Those lost in the land of Ashur will come, also those scattered through the land of Egypt; and they will worship Adonai on the holy mountain in Yerushalayim."

In what sense do you think it is the LAST trumpet which implies that there will not be any trumpets to follow it? What are the trumpets that will precede the LAST trumpet?

Spiritual Jew · Sep 16, 2021

keras said:
Wrong.
The Last Trumpet sound will be call up the dead and all those still alive after the Millennium, to stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15

Proved by how it is only then that Death will be no more. I Corinthians 15:54-55, Revelation 21:4

LOL! Do you still not understand that Amils believe this as well? The difference is that we believe it happens on the day Christ returns and you don't. Your belief on this is much closer to Amil than Premil in terms of the timing of the last trumpet.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 16, 2021

Guojing said:
Do you know what Acts 3:19-21 is saying?

Yes. Do you?

Spiritual Jew · Sep 16, 2021

Timtofly said:
Christ comes to gather. Christ has to be on this earth to do this gathering.

Why is that? Paul taught that when Jesus returns we will be gathered to Him "in the air" (1 Thess 4:14-17) which is not on the earth. Is 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 in your Bible?

Spiritual Jew · Sep 16, 2021

Guojing said:
If you insist, verse 9 already tells you Peter could not be referring to gentile believers, since he is quoting from Exodus 19:6

Are you saying that you think at the time Peter wrote 1st Peter that Israel had not formerly been the people of God but now (at that time) they were? Because that is what he is saying in 1 Peter 2:9. He told the ones he is addressing in 1st Peter that they had not been the people of God before but now (at that time) they were. How can that apply to the people of the nation of Israel? It can't. Clearly, they had been the people of God before that, so Peter can't be talking about them there. Why can't you acknowledge that?

keras · Sep 16, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
LOL! Do you still not understand that Amils believe this as well? The difference is that we believe it happens on the day Christ returns and you don't. Your belief on this is much closer to Amil than Premil in terms of the timing of the last trumpet.

I am neither AMill or Pre-mil. Just a believer in what the Bible actually says.
There WILL be a Millennium reign of King Jesus, after He physically Returns, as Revelation 20 states 6 times. Psalms 2:8, Psalms 110:2, confirm it.

And Psalms 46:8-11, Psalms 47:1-9, Psalms 48:1-14, Isaiah 4:5-6, Isaiah 11:1-9, Isaiah 65:18-25, Micah 4:1-8, Micah 5:2-5, Zechariah 9:10; +, describe the future time of His peaceful and prosperous reign.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 16, 2021

keras said:
I am neither AMill or Pre-mil.

Yes, you are. He either will return before (pre) the thousand years or after. There's no other option. You're Pre-mill in the sense that you believe Jesus returns before (pre) the millennium. That's the primary thing that identifies a premillennialist. Of course, not all Premills agree on all the details just as not all Amils agree on all the details.

Just a believer in what the Bible actually says.

You are definitely a believer in what you THINK the Bible says.

keras · Sep 16, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Why is that? Paul taught that when Jesus returns we will be gathered to Him "in the air" (1 Thess 4:14-17) which is not on the earth. Is 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 in your Bible?

This is where your beliefs lead you astray.
The 'air'; the earths atmosphere, IS an integral part of the earth.

Paul's prophecy in 1 Thess 4:17, is about when Jesus Returns to the earth.
As Matthew 24:31 tells us; He will send out His angels to gather His people to where He is. That will be in Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:3
This gathering will be a transportation, an earthly relocation, the same as what happened to Philip; Acts of the Apostles 8:39 and to Ezekiel 3:12-15.

keras · Sep 16, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
You are definitely a believer in what you THINK the Bible says.

You obviously haven't bothered to look at the scriptures I provided.
Here they are again, they prove there WILL be a time when Jesus will be on earth as world ruler.
Psalms 46:8-11, Psalms 47:1-9, Psalms 48:1-14, Isaiah 4:5-6, Isaiah 11:1-9, Isaiah 65:18-25, Micah 4:1-8, Micah 5:2-5, Zechariah 9:10; +, describe the future time of His peaceful and prosperous reign.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 16, 2021

keras said:
This is where your beliefs lead you astray.
The 'air'; the earths atmosphere, IS an integral part of the earth.

But it's not ON the earth. That's the point. Tell me why we would meet Jesus "in the air" if He's just going to take us down to the earth's surface right after that? Why wouldn't we just meet Him on the earth instead?

I'll tell you why I think we will be meeting Him "in the air". Because fire will be coming down on the entire earth surface. It makes sense that we shouldn't be left here on earth when that happens.

Paul's prophecy in 1 Thess 4:17, is about when Jesus Returns to the earth.
As Matthew 24:31 tells us; He will send out His angels to gather His people to where He is. That will be in Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:3
This gathering will be a transportation, an earthly relocation, the same as what happened to Philip; Acts of the Apostles 8:39 and to Ezekiel 3:12-15.

That contradicts what Peter taught which is that the earth will be burned up when Jesus returns, resulting in the new earth (2 Peter 3:10-13). Peter said we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth in according to the promise of Christ's second ocming (2 Peter 3:13). That is what I'm looking forward to as well since I know Peter knew what he was talking about. Why is that not what you're looking forward to?

Spiritual Jew · Sep 16, 2021

keras said:
You obviously haven't bothered to look at the scriptures I provided.
Here they are again, they prove there WILL be a time when Jesus will be on earth as world ruler.
Psalms 46:8-11, Psalms 47:1-9, Psalms 48:1-14, Isaiah 4:5-6, Isaiah 11:1-9, Isaiah 65:18-25, Micah 4:1-8, Micah 5:2-5, Zechariah 9:10; +, describe the future time of His peaceful and prosperous reign.

Please don't waste my time with giving scripture references without explaining how exactly you think those scriptures support your view. I'm not going to waste my time guessing as to how you think those scriptures support your view. Are you too lazy to quote them and highlight the parts that you think support your view or what? Why do you think it's enough to just reference them as if I'm going to know how you interpret them?

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