The Sons of Abraham

Biblewriter said:

This is a flat denial of what the scriptures explicitly say.

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Evidence?

OldWiseGuy said:

Perhaps a study of the term "seed" would be helpful, especially as it pertains to Abraham and Israel.

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Galatians 3
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

jgr said:

Galatians 3
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

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The promises (plural) were twofold, that of race and grace. One pertains to the descendants of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob, the other is that of the kingly line, and the savior Jesus Christ through the tribe of Judah. Genesis 49:10; 1 Chronicles 5:2

The blessings conferred to Joseph in the latter days are clearly the birthright blessings passed down from Abraham to Isaac to Jacob/Israel and finally to the descendants of Ephraim and Manasseh in the latter days.

Biblewriter said:

Jeremiah 31:31-37, Ezekiel 36:1-10, Ezekiel 47:13-20, and all of Ezekiel 48, among MANY other scriptures.

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Biblewriter, every one of those texts you supplied refers to the time of the post-exilic return period for all the tribes. Cyrus, as you know, authorized every one with an Israelite ancestry in whatever nation they were to return to their homeland. God put a revived spirit in the people, and promised to be with them and multiply them as they rebuilt the Temple and the cities of Israel.

The reason I KNOW these verses speak of the post-exilic return period, and not one in our future, is that in those Ezekiel texts, God specifically limited the high priesthood to the faithful FAMILY OF ZADOK out of all the Levitical families who had NOT remained faithful during the 70 years of exile. Even if we were to return to a Levitical high priesthood system (which we won't), no one today can possibly narrow down their ancestry to a continuous bloodline leading back to Zadok, as the high priest Joshua in the post-exilic return WAS able to do at that time. So those verses you have given simply MUST refer to that post-exilic period when tribal records could still prove an unbroken ancestral lineage.

Those tribal distinctions were ALL incinerated in AD 70 with the burning up of the genealogical records, as prophesied in Malachi 4:1. The "Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord" coming after John the Baptist's ministry would burn up the wicked and the proud, leaving them "neither ROOT NOR BRANCH". This "ROOT" and "BRANCH" symbolism represented Israelite ancestral genealogies (which Paul called "unprofitable and vain"), and any offspring coming from those tribes.

In the New Jerusalem reality in which we are presently dwelling, CHRIST calls Himself "the ROOT AND OFFSPRING of David", and the Bright and Morning Star (Rev. 22:16). Anyone who is IN CHRIST has that "spiritual DNA" that jgr wrote of. Paul revealed that mystery long ago, that is it only "CHRIST IN YOU" that is the hope of glory (Colossians 2:27).

Biblewriter, you are doing exactly what Paul cautioned AGAINST in Titus 3:9.

But AVOID foolish questions, and GENEALOGIES, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are UNPROFITABLE AND VAIN."

And again to Timothy in I Timothy 1:4, "Neither give heed to fables and ENDLESS GENEALOGIES, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do."

The tribal divisions of the Jews and their genealogy records was not an important one, ever since the SEED, Christ, had come in fulfillment of the prophecy that the Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah. After that, tribal lineage had NO significance any more, and was one of those "weak and beggarly elements" that was about to pass away in those first-century days. Why do you want to resurrect this tribal lineage idea as something important for today, when Paul strictly forbad you to do so?

Biblewriter said:

I said absolutely nothing about genealogies.

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If you did not use the exact word "genealogies", yet your emphasis on the continued importance of the 12 Israelite tribes in this age is going against God's plans for their extinction after they had served their purpose in Christ's incarnation.

Far from saying that the ancient promises made to the nation of Israel were not to be fulfilled, I maintain that God fulfilled EVERY promise He ever made to them - including the promise to "slay them and call his servants by another name." Including His curse on the fig tree - a symbol of ethnic Israel who was rejecting Him in those days.

You want to deny that the Cyrus decree applied to ALL the house of Israel, by saying that only a portion of them actually took advantage of that decree to return. That is denying the validity of the Cyrus decree which was UNIVERSALLY given to ALL Israelites in the empire.

The natural birth within an Israelite tribe had no importance when it came to the absolute necessity of being "born AGAIN" in faith. Christ underscored this fact to Nicodemus, who had just as hard a time as you with the idea that God was not (and never had been) using tribal heritage as proof of a person being among the "children of faithful Abraham".

OldWiseGuy said:

The promises (plural) were twofold, that of race and grace. One pertains to the descendants of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob, the other is that of the kingly line, and the savior Jesus Christ through the tribe of Judah. Genesis 49:10; 1 Chronicles 5:2

The blessings conferred to Joseph in the latter days are clearly the birthright blessings passed down from Abraham to Isaac to Jacob/Israel and finally to the descendants of Ephraim and Manasseh in the latter days.

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There was never a trace of race in God's Covenant plan for His people of faith and obedience.

From the moment of its birth and throughout its history, Israel was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, and God extended His Covenant equally and impartially to both:

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

It is indisputable from the foregoing that Gentiles were equal and identical to Jews under the provisions of God's Covenant, partaking of its responsibilites, rights, privileges and blessings.

If God in His Covenant(s) at any time elected to change His Mind and begin favoring Jews over Gentiles, then there must be Scriptural evidence of that change. Where is it?

Of course, that would invalidate the inspired declarations of Peter (Acts 10:34, 1 Peter 1:17), Paul (Romans 2:11,Ephesians 6:9,Colossians 3:25), and James (James 2:9).

Your claim is Scripturally untenable.

jgr said:

There was never a trace of race in God's Covenant plan for His people of faith and obedience.

From the moment of its birth and throughout its history, Israel was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, and God extended His Covenant equally and impartially to both:

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

It is indisputable from the foregoing that Gentiles were equal and identical to Jews under the provisions of God's Covenant, partaking of its responsibilites, rights, privileges and blessings.

If God in His Covenant(s) at any time elected to change His Mind and begin favoring Jews over Gentiles, then there must be Scriptural evidence of that change. Where is it?

Of course, that would invalidate the inspired declarations of Peter (Acts 10:34, 1 Peter 1:17), Paul (Romans 2:11,Ephesians 6:9,Colossians 3:25), and James (James 2:9).

Your claim is Scripturally untenable.

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Treating strangers kindly or insisting that they follow the laws of Israel doesn't make them Israelites.

3 Resurrections said:

If you did not use the exact word "genealogies", yet your emphasis on the continued importance of the 12 Israelite tribes in this age is going against God's plans for their extinction after they had served their purpose in Christ's incarnation.

Far from saying that the ancient promises made to the nation of Israel were not to be fulfilled, I maintain that God fulfilled EVERY promise He ever made to them - including the promise to "slay them and call his servants by another name." Including His curse on the fig tree - a symbol of ethnic Israel who was rejecting Him in those days.

You want to deny that the Cyrus decree applied to ALL the house of Israel, by saying that only a portion of them actually took advantage of that decree to return. That is denying the validity of the Cyrus decree which was UNIVERSALLY given to ALL Israelites in the empire.

The natural birth within an Israelite tribe had no importance when it came to the absolute necessity of being "born AGAIN" in faith. Christ underscored this fact to Nicodemus, who had just as hard a time as you with the idea that God was not (and never had been) using tribal heritage as proof of a person being among the "children of faithful Abraham".

Click to expand...

Not all Israelites returned.

"Scripture states that 42,360 people returned to Judah, accompanied by 7,337 slaves and two hundred singers (Ezra 2:64–65), including members of the ten northern tribes taken into captivity by Assyria in 722 B.C. (Ezra 2:70). Still, they were only a small remnant."

The Exiles Return – Israel My Glory

Some if not most were long gone by the time of Cyrus's decree.

"They moved onwards, re-coalescing and settling in distant areas eventually reaching Western Europe, Scandinavia, and the British Isles."

Return from Babylon (hebrewnations.com)

OldWiseGuy said:

Isn't Europe the "north country" (north of ancient Israel) where the tribes of Israel were driven?

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So is Russia, China, Korea, Japan, North American. From there, South America and Africa. So not just Europe.

OldWiseGuy said:

Treating strangers kindly or insisting that they follow the laws of Israel doesn't make them Israelites.

Click to expand...

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Explain how God did not regard them as Israelites.

With tenable Scripture.

OldWiseGuy said:

Not all Israelites returned.

"Scripture states that 42,360 people returned to Judah, accompanied by 7,337 slaves and two hundred singers (Ezra 2:64–65), including members of the ten northern tribes taken into captivity by Assyria in 722 B.C. (Ezra 2:70). Still, they were only a small remnant."

The Exiles Return – Israel My Glory

Some if not most were long gone by the time of Cyrus's decree.

"They moved onwards, re-coalescing and settling in distant areas eventually reaching Western Europe, Scandinavia, and the British Isles."

Return from Babylon (hebrewnations.com)

Click to expand...

God fulfilled His part of the Jeremiah 31 covenant made with Israel and Judah by His universal offer to Israel and Judah to return under the Cyrus decree. God makes the same non-discriminatory, offered presentation of the gospel, yet not all respond. Is God at fault then as well, simply because some of mankind rejects that generous offer of grace? Same thing here in the post-exilic return, with only a remnant returning initially, which God did multiply in the years following that return, as He promised.

Though the offer was universal to all of Israel and Judah, yet we know that not all responded and returned. The remnant who did return made a covenant with God, which they eventually ended up BREAKING. In the post-exilic return, in Nehemiah 10:29, the people and their leaders en masse made a covenant and "entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the Lord our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;"...etc..

You guys do realize how that covenant was broken, don't you? When the nation of Israel eventually killed their "husband" (as God called Himself in Jeremiah 31:32) by crucifying Christ, that covenant between God and Israel / Judah was broken by them - not God. For the "wife" (Israel and Judah) to kill her own "husband" - this offense was punished in the same way that "women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged" (Ezekiel 16:38-41). The punishment for this offense of women that break wedlock and shed blood was God's promised judgment of "I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy" (which was the "Days of Vengeance" against Israel in the AD 66-70 era).

Adultery by a faithless spouse under the Old Covenant earned the death sentence. After which sentence was carried out, the husband was free to marry again. Which is why we have a "marriage of the Lamb" to the New Jerusalem, once the old, adulterous Jerusalem had been killed for her harlotry against her "husband" and the betrayal and murder of her Messiah. This New Jerusalem has foundations built - NOT upon the 12 tribes - but on the 12 Apostles of the Lamb this time (Rev. 21:14). Illustrating that the 12 tribes of Israel are not foundational aspects anymore.

Take special note of God comparing His faithfulness in Jeremiah 31:35-36 to His ordinances of "The sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night". Significantly, these are the very ordinances that were darkened in the Revelation plagues (Revelation 8:12), and were predicted as being darkened in Matthew 24:29, just prior to Christ's return in that generation. In the New Jerusalem reality, there actually is NO MORE NEED FOR THE SUN, NOR THE MOON (Revelation 21:23). This is clear evidence that the covenant made between God and Israel / Judah had lapsed, due to their breaking of that covenant.

Timtofly said:

So is Russia, China, Korea, Japan, North American. From there, South America and Africa. So not just Europe.

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The north country was the region to the north of Jerusalem/Judea. This would include Europe, Britain, Scandinavia, and Russia.

jgr said:

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Explain how God did not regard them as Israelites.

With tenable Scripture.

Click to expand...

You can treat an adopted child as your own, but that doesn't make him or her your biological child. A Latino child doesn't become a Norwegian by being adopted by a Norwegian family.

"As" an Israelite isn't the same as an actual Israelite. Of course the children of a mixed marriage would be considered Israelite's if the father was an Israelite.

3 Resurrections said:

God fulfilled His part of the Jeremiah 31 covenant made with Israel and Judah by His universal offer to Israel and Judah to return under the Cyrus decree. God makes the same non-discriminatory, offered presentation of the gospel, yet not all respond. Is God at fault then as well, simply because some of mankind rejects that generous offer of grace? Same thing here in the post-exilic return, with only a remnant returning initially, which God did multiply in the years following that return, as He promised.

Though the offer was universal to all of Israel and Judah, yet we know that not all responded and returned. The remnant who did return made a covenant with God, which they eventually ended up BREAKING. In the post-exilic return, in Nehemiah 10:29, the people and their leaders en masse made a covenant and "entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the Lord our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;"...etc..

You guys do realize how that covenant was broken, don't you? When the nation of Israel eventually killed their "husband" (as God called Himself in Jeremiah 31:32) by crucifying Christ, that covenant between God and Israel / Judah was broken by them - not God. For the "wife" (Israel and Judah) to kill her own "husband" - this offense was punished in the same way that "women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged" (Ezekiel 16:38-41). The punishment for this offense of women that break wedlock and shed blood was God's promised judgment of "I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy" (which was the "Days of Vengeance" against Israel in the AD 66-70 era).

Adultery by a faithless spouse under the Old Covenant earned the death sentence. After which sentence was carried out, the husband was free to marry again. Which is why we have a "marriage of the Lamb" to the New Jerusalem, once the old, adulterous Jerusalem had been killed for her harlotry against her "husband" and the betrayal and murder of her Messiah. This New Jerusalem has foundations built - NOT upon the 12 tribes - but on the 12 Apostles of the Lamb this time (Rev. 21:14). Illustrating that the 12 tribes of Israel are not foundational aspects anymore.

Take special note of God comparing His faithfulness in Jeremiah 31:35-36 to His ordinances of "The sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night". Significantly, these are the very ordinances that were darkened in the Revelation plagues (Revelation 8:12), and were predicted as being darkened in Matthew 24:29, just prior to Christ's return in that generation. In the New Jerusalem reality, there actually is NO MORE NEED FOR THE SUN, NOR THE MOON (Revelation 21:23). This is clear evidence that the covenant made between God and Israel / Judah had lapsed, due to their breaking of that covenant.

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Isn't the point of this discussion whether the descendants of the tribes of the northern kingdom exist today, without regard to the discussion about the identity of "spiritual" Israel?