Jesus spoke of Christian unity what does thus mean to you?

Fidelibus

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In answer to the question about someone possibly not being a Christian because of doctrinal disagreements, I did say that unity is a matter of agreement on essential doctrines, but as for other issues, they are not inherently destructive of unity between believers.

So are you saying that a Calvinist Pastor would be welcome to preach his churches beliefs from an Anglican or Lutheran pulpit regarding..... say Baptism? Likewise, are you saying a Lutheran Pastor's belief in baptismal regeneration or infant baptism would not prevent him from preaching his churches beliefs in a Calvinist church, or a Calvinist pastors belief in high predestination would not prevent him from pastoring in a Methodist church, or a Methodist Pastors belief in infant baptism would not prevent him from pastoring a Baptist church, and so on?

Or would you say/agree Pastors from one Protestant/non-denominational church/sect typically are not allowed to serve as pastors in other Protestant/non-denominational churches/sects of other traditions?
So, what would be an example of these "essential doctrines" that you say Protestant/non-denominational churches and sects are in agreement and therefore unified? I have sort of an idea, but a confirmation would be helpful.

Of course the same could be asked of all the different Catholic denominations as well, and the answer is still as explained above.

First off, there are not all these "different Catholic denominations" that you keep repeating and proven to the contrary over and over again. Are there are some churches which have indeed the audacity to claim for themselves the name "Catholic"? Sure there are. For example, the American National Catholic Church, which has parishes in Connecticut, Florida, New Mexico and New Jersey. And then there's the Old Catholic Church, the Independent Catholic Church, the Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church, the Catholic Apostolic Church of Antioch at Santa Fe, and a whole slew of others.
These "independent" Catholic churches cheerfully profess that they're not subject to the Roman pontiff. They have said, "Thanks, but no thanks, we're fine on our own without a pope and it's perfectly acceptable to do that and still be Catholic!"

it's absurd to think of a group of Catholics being subject to the Pope, and then another subgroup of "Catholics" who are not subject to the Roman pontiff. If these folks want to claim the name "Catholic" for their church, they ought to have some truth-in-advertising and profess from the pulpit all that the One Apostolic Holy Catholic Church professes. The decent thing for these churches to do would be to change their name to: Episcopalian. Or Protestant. Or anything other Christian denomination which has its roots in Catholicism, and then divorced itself from the Root.

These "Catholic" churches have taken all the hard teachings of Christ, re-conformed them to something more palatable, something more in conformity with their own personal views ("I like it when everyone gets to go to communion, even if you're not in communion with my church!" "I don't like it when women can't be priests!" "God wouldn't do [fill in the blank], and it's just coincidence that I don't like it when we have to do [fill in the blank]")

You know Albion, one would think with your continuous boasting on this forum for being greatly knowledgeable concerning the Catholic Church and her beliefs and teachings, you would (should) know that the Catholic Church, that is, the Catholic Church that is in full communion with The Holy See does not have denominations, but Rites, 24 of them. Again, all in 'full communion" with the Holy See. ;)

I will end with a quote by St. Augustine that says:

And so, lastly, does the very name of 'Catholic', which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.”

Have a Blessed Day!
 
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Albion

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So are you saying that a Calvinist Pastor would be welcome to preach his churches beliefs from an Anglican or Lutheran pulpit regarding..... say Baptism?
I didn't say that. The point was only about what would be divisive of unity among Christians.

My answer (once again) was that such a unity would be broken if essential doctrines of the faith were rejected by some party. And in case there is some confusion about that particular point or definition, the Original Post added this:
Jesus spoke of Christian unity but yet, many of us are divided. What does this mean to you? That people who are ununited are not really Christians?


My answer didn't suggest that every other doctrinal disagreement is unimportant, and it certainly doesn't meant that every Christian is to treat every other Christian, regardless of his beliefs and religious practices, as automatically being in altar and pulpit fellowship/intercommunion with every other one.
 
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Neostarwcc

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While we are divided in doctrine we should be united in love with each other and not just deal with one another. We all have differing views but that doesn't make us any less important in Christ.
 
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ARBITER01

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Unity begins with your relationship with Jesus.

The closer you are to Him, and the more He is operating through you, and the people around you see Him and His power moving through you instead of seeing you,.......the more interested people will be to know who you know and what you know, and draw closer to Him and be unified with Him like you are.

Until then, people will try to unify around their doctrinal beliefs.
 
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Fervent

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What sparks unity among the faithful also serves to cause division from the world.

Be straightforward, open, and honest and a true brother will love you. Open rebuke is better than hidden love.

To someone who is playing Christian? Rebuke them and they hate you.
 
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Neostarwcc

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Indeed Protestants claim that we're the church but don't you claim the same?

Differences are Protestants take scripture scripture seriously while Catholics don't. If they did they'd realize what caused Protestants to divide in the first place.

A reformation was needed to restore the Holy Catholic Church back to how it was during the days of the Apostles. The apostles clearly took the word of God literally and seriously when they wrote half of it in the first place...

So to me and my fellow Protestant brothers and Sisters, to take scripture for what it is the Word of God and to listen to the word of God alone and not to what mankind can corrupt and has corrupted from the word of God, THATS the church.

Christians should be united, but we all also should be taking scripture seriously. When the Apostles and Christ state over and over again in scripture that salvation cannot be lost for an example. Or that divorce is adultery,, There should be ZERO debate on these issues. Why? Because God said it and not man. I'm sorry I take what God said more seriously than what man does. Especially when God is incapable of lying or error.

That is what we Christians should do, take the word of God as undeniable truth and THE truth.
 
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Fidelibus

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I didn't say that. The point was only about what would be divisive of unity among Christians.

So you "would agree" that a Calvinist Pastor "would not" be welcome to preach his churches beliefs from an Anglican or Lutheran pulpit regarding..... say Baptism? Is not Baptism one of the "essential doctrines' of Protestant and non-denominational churches and sects you speak of?

My answer (once again) was that such a unity would be broken if essential doctrines of the faith were rejected by some party.

Like the example I gave above?

My answer didn't suggest that every other doctrinal disagreement is unimportant, and it certainly doesn't meant that every Christian is to treat every other Christian, regardless of his beliefs and religious practices, as automatically being in altar and pulpit fellowship/intercommunion with every other one.

So... what I see what you're trying to get at Albion, is that yes, there are "doctrinal disagreements" among the many different Protestant/non-denominational churches and sects. And that these disagreements are so wide and un-unifying that they are unwelcomed to be preached in the various Protestant/non-denominational churches and sects pulpits, correct? And would you also agree that many, if not all of these Protestant/non-denominational churches and sects are adherents of Sola Scriptura? (the Bible Alone) If so, the question remains, why all the doctrinal disagreements and disunity?

Referring back to Neostarwcc OP Albion, it was asked:

What is Christian unity to you?

And your response to Neo on post #3 was:

Being in agreement concerning the essentials of the Faith.

So.... what are these "essentials of faith" that Christians are in agreement, and that give Christian unity?

Have a Blessed Day!
 
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ViaCrucis

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Ideally it means that we all share together of the one Table of the Lord, in peace and fellowship, in unity of our shared and common faith: United together by our one faith, one baptism, under the Fatherhood of God, the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and power of the Holy Spirit. As the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church of Jesus Christ our Lord.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Albion

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So you "would agree" that a Calvinist Pastor "would not" be welcome to preach his churches beliefs from an Anglican or Lutheran pulpit regarding..... say Baptism? Is not Baptism one of the "essential doctrines' of Protestant and non-denominational churches and sects you speak of?

First, I wish everyone would cut back on the "so you woulds." That's customarily used to accuse someone of something he or she did not say.

In answer to the question (although I think it has been covered before), it normally isn't the case that the ministers from one denomination are invited to preach from the pulpit of another one, so long as there is no intercommunion agreement between the churches.

However, that doesn't mean that the two ministers think the other one isn't a Christian. The mode or meaning of baptism is not sufficient to do that, nor do the differences rise to the level of rejecting a teaching upon which salvation turns, no.


So... what I see what you're trying to get at Albion, is that yes, there are "doctrinal disagreements" among the many different Protestant/non-denominational churches and sects.
And there are also differences between the different Catholic churches, so...?
 
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Fidelibus

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First, I wish everyone would cut back on the "so you woulds." That's customarily used to accuse someone of something he or she did not say.

Okay, how about "would you agree?"

In answer to the question (although I think it has been covered before), it normally isn't the case that the ministers from one denomination are invited to preach from the pulpit of another one, so long as there is no intercommunion agreement between the churches.

Normally isn't the case? How come?

However, that doesn't mean that the two ministers think the other one isn't a Christian.

Okay, let's say these two ministers were from one of the many different Protestant/non-denominational churches or sects. In this case one was a Baptist pastor, and the other was a Anglican pastor, would you agree they are most likely adherents of Sola Scriptura? If you reply with a yes, would you also agree the two ministers most likely preach or teach from the same bible? Again, if you replied with a yes, why would these two pastors (denominations) have contradicting beliefs in regards to baptism, if both claim their beliefs and understandings are guided by the Holy Spirit?

Besides, I never said one or the other was not a Christian. Although, I would consider them separated Christian Brethren.

The mode or meaning of baptism is not sufficient to do that, nor do the differences rise to the level of rejecting a teaching upon which salvation turns, no.

Not to say one or the other was not a Christian, but still, in this case, the Baptist pastor or the Anglican pastor would not be allowed to teach/preach their church's beliefs on baptism (or many other beliefs) from the others pulpit, correct? If both are adherents of Sola Scriptura, and both claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit....... Why not?

And there are also differences between the different Catholic churches, so...?

Again Albion, one would think with your continuous boasting on this forum for being greatly knowledgeable concerning the Catholic Church and her beliefs and teachings, you would (should) know that all Catholics are united by common doctrines and beliefs, but they often express them in different ways. In Eastern Christianity, theology is not viewed in the scholastic manner that it has often been in the West. Theology cannot be separated from spirituality; they are intimately joined and related.

And with all this Catholic Church knowledge you claim to have, you would (should) know that St. John Paul II explained in Orientale Lumen that the Catholic Church is made up of Christians who are united in the Holy Spirit by the same faith, the same sacraments, and the same government, formed into various groups held together by a hierarchy and forming distinct churches or rites (OL 2). He also wrote that the authentic variety within the Church does not harm its unity but “manifests it,” and each particular church “should retain its traditions whole and entire” (OL 2).

Or that the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains that there is one universal Church, the “unique Catholic Church,” and many particular churches, each a community of Catholics who are joined by faith and the sacraments and their bishop (CCC 833). Along with the Second Vatican Council teaches that from these individual churches comes the fullness of the one and only Catholic Church (Lumen Gentium 23).

Ultimately Albion, you should know, that true Catholicism is not found in uniform worship or liturgy—the Catholic Church has not, since its earliest days in Jerusalem, been uniform in those areas. Rather, it has been united in its common faith, doctrine, and sacraments, concretely demonstrated by communion with the pope, the bishop of Rome. While there is a proper diversity in the realm of liturgical practice, devotions, and even disciplines, there is an essential unity in doctrine and dogma.

Now back to your response to Neostarwcc when the poster asked:

"What is Christian unity to you?"

Your response to Neo on post #3 was:

"Being in agreement concerning the essentials of the Faith."

So again I ask you Albion, (or anyone else for that matter) what are these "essentials of faith" you speak of that Christians are in agreement with, and that give Christians unity?

Have a Blessed Day!
 
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Albion

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Okay, how about "would you agree?"
Good idea.

Normally isn't the case? How come?
For the obvious reasons: it isn't needed very often, there are well-known doctrinal differences between the denominations that have kept them from entering into an agreement to have such pulpit exchanges, and also that the pastors on both sides feel the obligation to abide by their respective churches' rules and policies, whatever they may think of them privately.

However, I said "normally" because there are occasionally exceptional circumstances that allow for such invitations. None of this should be seen as very surprising or controversial.

Okay, let's say these two ministers were from one of the many different Protestant/non-denominational churches or sects. In this case one was a Baptist pastor, and the other was a Anglican pastor, would you agree they are most likely adherents of Sola Scriptura?
Not really.

Besides, I never said one or the other was not a Christian. Although, I would consider them separated Christian Brethren.
Agreed. As for the "not a Christian" part, I didn't think that of you. That idea was built into the original post, so I was referring back to it at that spot in my answer.

Not to say one or the other was not a Christian, but still, in this case, the Baptist pastor or the Anglican pastor would not be allowed to teach/preach their church's beliefs on baptism (or many other beliefs) from the others pulpit, correct?
Well look...that's a very unlikely scenario, that one pastor would invite a pastor of a different denomination to come and preach from the pulpit against the first one's beliefs.

Again Albion, one would think with your continuous boasting on this forum for being greatly knowledgeable concerning the Catholic Church and her beliefs and teachings...
Just a minute. I have not boasted of being "greatly knowledgeable" concerning the Catholic Church. I was a member for some time, however, and I have only two or three times out of the 100,000+ posts made here referred to my Catholic background in the way you have in mind...and all of those came when some arrogant Catholic of the "all non-Catholics are out to misrepresent our church" variety starts telling me that I CANNOT know what your church teaches simply because I don't hold membership in it at present.

Catholics are united by common doctrines and beliefs, but they often express them in different ways.
Yes. That's truer than many Catholics think. But that diversity of belief isn't necessarily acceptable to the church, you realize. I have met many Catholics who say that they don't believe X or Y and hope the church will come around to their own way of thinking one of these days, never realizing that what they are saying is that they're heretics.

Eastern Christianity, theology is not viewed in the scholastic manner that it has often been in the West. Theology cannot be separated from spirituality; they are intimately joined and related.
I don't see what point you are making here. Yes, some variances are allowed by the church, but not on dogma.

And as for the admirable things that your church has said on the subject of Christian unity, that would be great if she did not give with one hand and take it back with the other. But that is the fact, as was brought out earlier in the thread.
 
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HARK!

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MOD HAT ON

350015_0f282d4b538245f7d5ab333c90dad940.jpeg


MOD HAT OFF
 
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Fidelibus

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For the obvious reasons: it isn't needed very often, there are well-known doctrinal differences between the denominations that have kept them from entering into an agreement to have such pulpit exchanges, and also that the pastors on both sides feel the obligation to abide by their respective churches' rules and policies, whatever they may think of them privately.

Regarding the "essential doctrines" you have mentioned?

However, I said "normally" because there are occasionally exceptional circumstances that allow for such invitations. None of this should be seem as very surprising or controversial.
Could you give some examples?

Not really.

Correct me if I'm wrong Albion, but pretty sure you are. So are you saying that Baptists do not adhere to the belief of Sola Scriptura, the bible alone? Any Baptist out there that would care to clarify this to a Catholic like myself?

Agreed. As for the "not a Christian" part, I didn't think that of you. That idea was built into the original post, so I was referring back to it at that spot in my answer.

Got it, thanks.

Well look. That's a very unlikely scenario, that one pastor would invite a pastor of a different denomination to come and preach against the first one's beliefs from the pulpit.

If they are both adherents of Sola Scriptura, preaching and teaching from the same bible, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit......... Why not?

Just a minute. I have never boasted of being "greatly knowledgeable" concerning the Catholic Church.

All I can say is, to this Catholic, you have come off doing so most of the time.

I was a member for some time, however, and I have only two or three times out of the 100,000+ posts made here referred to my Catholic background in the way you have in mind...and all of those came when some arrogant Catholic of the "all non-Catholics are out to misrepresent our church" variety starts telling me that I CANNOT know what your church teaches simply because I don't hold membership in it at present.

Okay Albion, out of all of those 100,000 plus posts, how many of them posts have you backed up with what you claim to be the teachings and beliefs of the Catholic Church with reference to the Catechism of the Catholic Church for folks to compare what you say the beliefs/teachings are, and what the Catechism of the Catholic Church actually teaches and believes?

I don't see what point you are making here.

Because of the question you asked me on post # 30.

"And there are also differences between the different Catholic churches, so...?"

Yes. That's truer than many Catholics think. But that diversity of belief isn't necessarily acceptable to the church, you realize. I have met many Catholics who say that they don't believe X or Y and hope the church will come around to their own way of thinking one of these days, never realizing that what they are saying is that they're heretics.

They are either poorly catechized or cafeteria Catholics, or dissenters.

And as for the admirable things that your church has said on the subject of Christian unity, that would be great if she did not give with one hand and take it back with the other.

Example?

Now, for the third time Albion, back to your response to Neostarwcc when the poster asked:

"What is Christian unity to you?"

Your response to Neo on post #3 was:

"Being in agreement concerning the essentials of the Faith."

So again I ask you Albion, (or anyone else for that matter) what are these "essentials of faith" you speak of that Christians are in agreement with, and that give Christians unity?

Have a Blessed Day!
 
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Albion

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Regarding the "essential doctrines" you have mentioned?


Could you give some examples?
I am more concerned about answering the question of the thread...which I have done. Essential doctrine, doctrine essential to believe in order to be saved.

Not much falls into that category, not much more than the Nicene Creed spells out. But anyone and everyone could pick at one point here or there if that answer is given and that would obscure the meaning, which I'd rather did not happen.

If they are both adherents of Sola Scriptura, preaching and teaching from the same bible, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit......... Why not?
I've already answered 'why not.' In fact, I've pointed to several different reasons why not.

More important than that, however, is this--you still don't seem to know what Sola Scriptura means. Not after all the posts that have explained it on these forums.

Sola Scriptura asserts what the authority for doctrine IS. It does not guarantee that every reader, although consulting only the supreme authority on doctrine, will necessarily come to the same conclusion about the meaning, just as all the various Catholic denominations say they rely upon Tradition, but yet it is the case that no two of them have come up with the same set of doctrines based upon Tradition.

So there you are.
 
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concretecamper

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Differences are Protestants take scripture scripture seriously while Catholics don't
I would say quite the opposite. The Church retains the truth of scripture while protestants freely interpret it to their own liking.
 
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Fidelibus

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I am more concerned about answering the question of the thread...which I have done.


Really? Well let's see. In post #3 you bolded the very last question of the OP. That being..... "What is Christian unity to you?" And your response was.....

Being in agreement concerning the essentials of the Faith.

So what are these "essentials" of the faith that is Christian unity?

Essential doctrine, doctrine essential to believe in order to be saved.

Again, what are these "essentials doctrines" and "doctrine essentials" that are to be believed in order to be saved?

I've already answered 'why not.' In fact, I've pointed to several different reasons why not.

You mean when you said:

it normally isn't the case that the ministers from one denomination are invited to preach from the pulpit of another one

or when you said....... "For the obvious reasons:"

it isn't needed very often, there are well-known doctrinal differences between the denominations that have kept them from entering into an agreement to have such pulpit exchanges, and also that the pastors on both sides feel the obligation to abide by their respective churches' rules and policies, whatever they may think of them privately.

I am curious to know what these "well known" doctrinal differences are that keeps one pastor from a different Protestant/non-denominational church or sects to preach or teach from a pulpit other than his own? Especially if they are both adherents of Sola Scriptura, preaching and teaching from the same bible, and being guided to the truth by the Holy Spirit?

More important than that, however, is this--you still don't seem to know what Sola Scriptura means. Not after all the posts that have explained it on these forums.

How is a person to know which flavor of Sola Scriptura is the correct flavor, and which is not when the many Protestant/non-denominational churches and sects are at odds on what SS is and what SS isn't?

Sola Scriptura asserts what the authority for doctrine IS.

By who's or what authority? The Bible? Where in the Bible does it say ..... "Sola Scriptura asserts what the authority for doctrine is?" Could you please show me the book, chapter, or verse where it say's this? I would like to look it up for myself.

It does not guarantee that every reader, although consulting only the supreme authority on doctrine, will necessarily come to the same conclusion about the meaning

Why not? One would think if the different Protestant/non-denominational adherents of SS and reading the same bible, and being guided by the Holy Spirit to the truth, every reader would be in unity of the truth. You would agree that the Holy Spirit cannot be the author of confusion, right?

just as all the various Catholic denominations say they rely upon Tradition

Lol! For the ump tenth time, there are not all these "different Catholic denominations" that you keep repeating and have been proven to the contrary over and over again. There is however, (something you should know, being a former Catholic and all) that the Catholic Church, that is, the Catholic Church that is in full communion with The Holy See does not have denominations, but Rites, 24 of them. Again, all in 'full communion" with the Holy See.

That is unless you were one of those poorly catechized Catholics I spoke of earlier. ;)

but yet it is the case that no two of them have come up with the same set of doctrines based upon Tradition.

Ha-ha! Sometimes Albion, I think you don't even read my entire posts! Did you not read later part of my post #30 where I posted:

"Albion, you should know, that true Catholicism is not found in uniform worship or liturgy—the Catholic Church has not, since its earliest days in Jerusalem, been uniform in those areas. Rather, it has been united in its common faith, doctrine, and sacraments, concretely demonstrated by communion with the pope, the bishop of Rome. While there is a proper diversity in the realm of liturgical practice, devotions, and even disciplines, there is an essential unity in doctrine and dogma."

So there you are

Lol!........ All righty then!

Not to mention Albion, where I posted three, now the forth time:

"Now back to your response to Neostarwcc when the poster asked:

"What is Christian unity to you?"

Your response to Neo on post #3 was:

"Being in agreement concerning the essentials of the Faith."

So again I ask you Albion, (or anyone else for that matter) what are these "essentials of faith" you speak of that Christians are in agreement with, and that give Christians unity?

And why have you kept ignoring this request?

Have a Blessed Day!
 
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Albion

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You mean when you said:

or when you said....... "For the obvious reasons:"
...and then I gave examples of those reasons. It shouldn't even have been necessary, given the unlikely situation you presented to me to comment on.

How is a person to know which flavor of Sola Scriptura is the correct flavor
How does a church that doesn't believe in Scripture Alone translate the Bible? C'mon. You know the answer to this.

and which is not when the many Protestant/non-denominational churches and sects are at odds on what SS is and what SS isn't?
Tell me what "at odds" you are referring to.

By who's or what authority? The Bible? Where in the Bible does it say ..... "Sola Scriptura asserts what the authority for doctrine is?" Could you please show me the book, chapter, or verse where it say's this? I would like to look it up for myself.
Well, apparently we're no longer talking about Christian unity, the topic of this thread, and are back to that favorite subject of yours, trying to find something wrong with considering the word of God to be the ultimate authority on dogma.
 
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Fidelibus

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...and then I gave examples of those reasons. It shouldn't even have been necessary, given the unlikely situation you presented to me to comment on.


How does a church that doesn't believe in Scripture Alone translate the Bible? C'mon. You know the answer to this.


Tell me what "at odds" you are referring to.


Well, apparently we're no longer talking about Christian unity, the topic of this thread, and are back to that favorite subject of yours, trying to find something wrong with considering the word of God to be the ultimate authority on dogma.

I will gladly address this post of yours as soon as you address this request that I've been asking you for my last four or five posts, which for some reason you have ignored.




"Now back to your response to Neostarwcc when the poster asked:

"What is Christian unity to you?"

Your response to Neo on post #3 was:

"Being in agreement concerning the essentials of the Faith."

So again I ask you Albion, (or anyone else for that matter) what are these "essentials of faith" you speak of that Christians are in agreement with, and that give Christians unity?

And why have you kept ignoring this request?

Have a Blessed Day!
 
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Bob Crowley

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That’s a good question. I sincerely believe that as the end draws closer, everyone will get back together. My husband is deeply informed by Baptist and Evangelical theology. I am deeply informed by Catholic theology. I do my best to love him, understand him, agree with him where I can, and be thankful that at least we’re both Christians who are fairly to deeply conservative, and who can pray for each other. That’s good.

I'm in similar situation. My wife is Baptist, and I'm Catholic (ex-protestant convert). But we rub along together OK. She helps with Saint Vincent de Paul Society visits for example.

That said, and I probably shouldn't put this here, but my rather prophetic old Presbyterian pastor once said to me (and he predicted I'd become Catholic) "I think you might have some trouble with the Baptists. They're very much aware of being Baptist, much more so than Presbyterians are of being Presbyterian for example."

So far it hasn't eventuated, but he was so accurate I think it will be a problem sometime down the track. It may not be with her current church, but somewhere else. All I can do is be prepared when it does happen.
 
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concretecamper

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Jesus spoke of Christian unity but yet, many of us are divided. What does this mean to you? That people who are ununited are not really Christians? That we won't be united until after he comes? That we are so divided because of sin? What is Christian unity to you?
To me, it mean One faith. Not the silly idea what any one of us deems the "ESSENTIALS". One mean one, 100%, not 60% or 95%
 
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