What it means to have dead faith

BNR32FAN · Sep 14, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
Didnt I already speak to you about Jn 5:25

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The dead hearing is a miracle of resurrection. Just like Lazarus. In addition it wasnt for everyone dead to hear, but certain dead ones like Lazarus was a partcular person Jesus Christ quikened.

Do you think all the dead heard Christs voice when lazarus did ?

Jesus was trying to save those people in John 5 even though they were seeking to kill Him.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 14, 2021

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
This is an excellent question; one that every believer should be asking. Sadly, though, your question reveals that you do believe that you can do something that Christ didn't die for. There is nothing He left out.

Doug Brents said:
There is the sin against the Spirit (Matt 12:31-32).

That was a very specific context, and it applied ONLY to those who Jesus addressed. The issue was the unbelievers who rejected Jesus as Messiah attributed His miracles to the devil. iow, they were so negative that even His miracles didn't move them. They were refusing to believe.

Only those who SAW the miracles and attributed them to the devil were guilty of this sin.

There is also crucifying the Son after we have accepted Him (Heb 6:4-6).

There is nothing in that passage about losing salvation. The issue was believers who were or thinking of returning to the Law and sacrifices in order to satisfy God. That is blasphemy, since Christ had already paid for all sin. The passage says these people couldn't be "brought back to repentance". iow, they wouldn't change their minds.

But why are you still trying in vain to prove that salvation can be lost?

That can only mean that you don't believe what Jesus said about WHEN one possesses eternal life, per John 5:24, and that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, per Jn 10:28.

Why are you still "kicking at the goads"?

But my point is that your doctrine that we cannot fall from grace removes the punishment from the equation.

I never said believers can't "fall from grace". I WILL say that falling from grace isn't loss of salvation, or Jesus was lying in Jn 10:28. I refuse to believe that.

And I have always stressed the FACT that disobedient/rebellious children of God WILL experience God's PAINFUL discipline (Heb 12:11). iow, they won't get away with anything.

If, after I believe, there is no way to lose salvation, then there is no threat of punishment, or loss of the reward, to keep me from continuing in a sinful life.

You are just not listening then. Why do you think that God's only punishment available is to remove salvation from His children?

Indeed, and these passages, along with the many passages in the NT, tell us that we must remain faithful and endure to the end to receive the crown of glory.

But you misunderstand the "crowns" to refer to salvation, when they refer to reward.

Do you understand the meaning of a gift and a paycheck?

Do you earn a gift? No. Do you earn your paycheck? Hopefully you do. The Bible commands believers to earn their pay.

Salvation is a gift. You cannot earn it. You (and I) certainly don't deserve it. But God gives salvation as a gift. Eph 2:8

If we fall away we lose the crown. We won’t receive the prize.

Yes, we do. But that's not salvation in view. It's reward.

Col 3-
23Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters,
24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

No. You can divorce God, break the covenant, and lose the prize (Heaven).

Show me any verse that says any of this. All I'm seeing here is your presumption. Which is totally unbiblical.

Every time you argue against eternal security, you are arguing against the Bible.

I do believe every Word He said.

That is NOT possible. Jesus was clear about WHEN a person possesses eternal life (Jn 5:24), and the result of having eternal life (Jn 10:28).

So you are NOT telling the truth when you claim to "believe every word He said". No, you certainly do not.

And in the parable of the soul He tells us that many will fall away. Two of the four seeds is received, sprouts, and grows (salvation), but does not produce fruit because the person falls away. Only one seed does not result in salvation (the first).

Nowhere did Jesus say or even imply that the 2 soils that didn't produce fruit lost salvation. Again, you are only inserting your own presumption into the passage.

Salvation IS the eternal reward.

There you go again. You are confusing what is earned, which is reward, with what CANNOT be earned, which is the gift of salvation/eternal life.

Until you sort that out and understand both gifts and rewards, there is no way you'll ever understand the Bible.

He is talking about a single thing, THE PRIZE (salvation), not a group of things.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
But the bottom line for Arminians is that believing that salvation can be lost simply do not believe what Jesus said about eternal life.

In John 5:24 Jesus said those who believe (present tense) have (possess - present tense) eternal life. This means they possess eternal life WHEN they believe.

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

So, from the moment of faith in Christ, that person shall never perish because they possess eternal life. And eternal life cannot die.

Very simple.
That assumes that eternal life cannot be lost.[/QUOTE]
There is no assumption. Jesus couldn't have been more clear about eternal security.

Believing that eternal life can be lost is the presumption and rejection of what Jesus said so very clearly.

Yes, when you are baptized (not when you believe), you receive salvation and the promise of eternal life when we die, if we remain faithful for the rest of our life.

That's NOT what Jesus said in John 5:24, or 10:28.

What does it mean for us if Christ denies us before the Father? It means we are not His (Christ’s), and we will be thrown out of Heaven with the rest of the goats (into Hell).

No, it means He will deny us rewards.

But you ignore the last half of the verse that again tells us that we are only heirs IF we share in His suffering (endure).

Rom 8:17 mentions 2 heirships. The first is as a child of God we are heirs of His and will live with Him in eternity. That is guaranteed because we are His children.

The second one is a "co-heir" with Christ IF IF IF we "suffer" so that we will share with Him in His glory. This is about reward.

Heirship in total is conditional. Not just being co-heir with Christ.

That would mean that God can UN-born us. That is absurd.

BNR32FAN · Sep 14, 2021

prophecy_uk said:
As Jesus confirms, that the sheep hear His voice.

They don’t only hear His voice they hear and follow. Matthew 7:21-27 Jesus explains that some hear and do not follow and their refusal to act upon His words is the cause of their condemnation.

prophecy_uk said:
Repentance therefore, is the gift of God, all is the gift of God, nothing a man can show is from himself, all men are faithless, as also confirmed, none sought the Lord, as none do, and why Jesus said to many disciples, you cannot believe unless it is given to you to believe

In Luke 8 the seeds that fell among the rocky soil believed for a while then later fell away. They were granted grace and they still fell away. Just like the people in John 15:6 who didn’t remain in Christ. They couldn’t have came to Christ to begin with unless The Father had drawn them. What’s being repeatedly taught in the scriptures is that despite God’s efforts to save all men some will still refuse.

BNR32FAN · Sep 14, 2021

prophecy_uk said:
Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God

“Says the fool in his heart”. That’s the opening statement of that quote from Psalms 14. This is why we are in need of a Savior.

Brightfame52 · Sep 14, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
Jesus was trying to save those people in John 5 even though they were seeking to kill Him.

Tryig to save ? Lol, that's funny

BNR32FAN · Sep 14, 2021

prophecy_uk said:
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

I never claimed that anyone could come to Christ who hasn’t been called by The Father. I’ve actually stated several times in this thread that no one can come to Christ unless they have been called by The Father. What I’ve been saying the whole time is that some who have been called by The Father will fall away. John 15:2 He cuts off every branch IN ME who beareth not fruit. John 15:6 anyone who does not remain in Me is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. Galatians 5:4 you have been severed from Christ, you have fallen from grace. Matthew 24:10-13 many will fall away but the one who endures to the end will be saved.

BNR32FAN · Sep 14, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
Tryig to save ? Lol, that's funny

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Who’s trying to save the tree? Will all the trees bear fruit or will some be chopped down? I’ve already shown you this.

BNR32FAN · Sep 14, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
Tryig to save ? Lol, that's funny

Jesus specifically stated that He was trying to save them in verse 34.

“But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Do you still deny that He was trying to save these men who sought to kill Him?

prophecy_uk · Sep 15, 2021

Free: "Scripture teaches that those with faith OUGHT to act in accordance with their faith.

That's what the commands are about."

Scripture teaches that God is a Spirit, and it is the Spirit of faith that works, as God is one and not divided.

The same as man without faith ( of the Holy Spirit of Christ) act on what they believe in, to do the evil work they live for.

Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

That is why the complainers are here, to turn all of Gods right ways into their wrong ones..

Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Free: "You just flipped off my explanation. John 5:25 is very clear. THE DEAD WILL HEAR.

Your take on the issue is that "the dead will be made alive and THEN hear". Which isn't biblical. As I've shown."

Passed from death to life, is to be taken out of condemnation, to justification 9 in Christ Jesus)

The dead ( in condemnation) will hear the Son ( as the Son rose from the dead to quicken us together with Him ( from our condemnation of death)

This is because the Son has life in Himself ( then the Son could not be held in death)

Lazarus then, in the grave, heard the voice of the Lord, and came forth ( judged by the Lord to have done good)..

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus said to us, if a man ( such as Lasarus) shall keep the Lords saying, they shall never see death.

Jesus told Martha, ( regarding Lasarus) though he were dead, yet shall he live ( to those who believe in Jesus) and the ones living and believing in Him, shall never die...

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Then our other example, is that the life is in the blood, and the voice of Abel cried to the Lord, which is the voice of Abel's blood, and the blood of our Lord speaks even better things than Abel ( as we can believe in Jesus to never see death)

Then, we see, we are made alive from being dead in condemnation..

Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.

Genesis 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

prophecy_uk · Sep 15, 2021

Freegrace: " Show me any verse that says any of this. All I'm seeing here is your presumption. Which is totally unbiblical.

Every time you argue against eternal security, you are arguing against the Bible."

Freegrace: "That is NOT possible. Jesus was clear about WHEN a person possesses eternal life (Jn 5:24), and the result of having eternal life (Jn 10:28)."

Here is your idea of eternal salvation.

Light came to the world, and men loved darkness. Those in darkness claim eternal security, as they are selfish, and reward themselves with their coveteousness.

But those who do truth, come to the light to have their deeds wrought in God ( which is Jesus Christ laying His life down for us and we do the same)

That is to hear the message of the Gospel, the cross and we bearing our cross, to avoid the condemnation of ungodly selfish men.

The works Jesus did, then bear witness of this, He layed His life down, against evil selfish men, who took His life away. ( this condemned them to eternal destruction and all selfish ones who do not lay their lives down and who seek to save their life instead)

So instead of believing, to begin following the righteous lath of Christ ( to begin to ,lose and lay your life down as He did) they follow their father the devil to hell, by doing the lusts of their father and his greed and selfish ways, who also blaspheme the right ways of the Lord through their deceit..

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Freegrace: "Rom 8:17 mentions 2 heirships. The first is as a child of God we are heirs of His and will live with Him in eternity. That is guaranteed because we are His children.

The second one is a "co-heir" with Christ IF IF IF we "suffer" so that we will share with Him in His glory. This is about reward."

Take another look now. The sufferings that are in us ( the sufferings of Christ 1 Peter 4:13) reveal the glory that is in us. That is how we are glorified together ( Christ needs no reward) by suffering with Him..

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

That is always bearing about in our body the dying of the Lord Jesus, to magnify His life through us.

These show the same as Romans 8:17-18. of all the persecutions and tribulations they endured ( in and for, the name of Christ) it is the manifest token of the righteous judgement of God, to be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God, as it is that ( the Kingdom of Christ) for which they suffer ( this is the purpose of God)

Nothing also terrified of their adversaries ( their adversary the devil and his servants) as that is the token of perdition to them, but to us, of salvation, and that of God..

2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Philippians 1:28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.

Pay attention Freegrace ( or do not at all) that dear children ) of God) walk in love, as all uncleanness, and coveteousness and filthiness, or foolish talking, is deceiving, and the wrath of God comes on those children of disobedience( although they claim to be eternally secure children of God)

The children of the devil and the children of God are made clear, the ones who do not do only righteousness, to only love, are not of God, not born of God, do not believe that Jesus is the Christ, as they hate all but themselves, by not keeping the commandments of the Son of God ( who loves by these sufferings and by laying the life down to find it again)..

Ephesians 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 5: Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

Freegrace: "That would mean that God can UN-born us. That is absurd."

Yes they brought forth wind, no children.

So the travailing in birth goes on again, until Christ be formed in them, as it is stood in doubt of them..

Isaiah 26:18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.

prophecy_uk · Sep 15, 2021

Bnr: "This message is very similar to Ephesians 4 & 5 written to “the Saints in Ephesus who are faithful to Christ” who have been “sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption”. He makes it clear that no one living a sinful way of life will enter the kingdom of Heaven because the wrath of God will fall upon all who are disobedient."

Beginning first in Ephesians 1, the Ephesians heard the Gospel of truth, and were sealed, with the holy Spirit of promise.

Apostle Paul, then prays for them, if God might give them the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him ( to believe unto righteousness)...

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 4, shows the same Ephesians ( as it is one letter sent to them) to sin not, but to labour to do good to those in need, to not be corrupt, but speak for edifying ( but the deceiver entered the flock and speak vanity) and that is grieving the Holy Spirit of God, ( which they are doing in evil speaking) and all malice needed to be put away, and they need to believe in forgiving, if they want to be forgiven, for they are sealed by the Holy Spirit ( of promise) until the day of redemption) and the redeemed of the Lord hear the exhortation, but the mockers mock instead..

Ephesians 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Bnr: "They don’t only hear His voice they hear and follow. Matthew 7:21-27 Jesus explains that some hear and do not follow and their refusal to act upon His words is the cause of their condemnation."

The sheep hear HIS VOICE.

Others, not His sheep, do not hear His voice.

The works of faith Jesus did bear witness, as they are in the Fathers name ( need the Fathers name written in them too) to know and believe in the Father.

Then, the ones who heard His word, and did the sayings, heard His voice too, and the ones who heard the words, but did them not, did not hear His voice.

The wicked can never hear, they will not listen to the voice of the charmers, charming never so wisely, as they are serpents ( and not His sheep as He said to them) and because the Lord has not given them ears to her and a heart to perceive until this day..

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.

Deuteronomy 29:4 Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Bnr: "In Luke 8 the seeds that fell among the rocky soil believed for a while then later fell away. They were granted grace and they still fell away."

First, it has to be given to them to believe and know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, or they hear but cannot understand ( as the Sheep are given to hear His voice ?)...

Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Then Jesus gives the words ( that are Spirit and life from Heaven in a mystery) and the devil has no problem taking the words away from the heart of them who can only believe without understanding ( not given to understand by God)

Others hear with joy, and again they believe for a while ( never understood, never given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom by God) and fall away by the devils temptations again.)

Again, other heard the word ( but not given to know the mysteries of Heaven by being given to hear the voice of the Shepherds words of Spirit and life) and the devil chokes the word out of them, by being the god of this world they believe in and follow ( they bring no fruit to perfection and bring forth no good fruit also at all)

In the good honest heart, ( they heard the word and are given to know the mysteries and to hear the voice of the Lord by the Spirit of discerning given) and of course that is the new heart given to them and the stony heart taken out by the Holy Spirit given, believing in the rising of the Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life, bringing forth the fruit of life in patience ( and patience has her perfect work in them, which is Christ working in them. James 1:4)..

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

prophecy_uk · Sep 15, 2021

Bnr: "Just like the people in John 15:6 who didn’t remain in Christ."

The man who does not abide in Christ, are all they who are not willed by the Lord to this.

They ( the Apostles are cleansed ( by the word) and now they need to abide in Christ, which is His word ( of Spirit and life ) dwelling in them..

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

BNR: "“Says the fool in his heart”. That’s the opening statement of that quote from Psalms 14. This is why we are in need of a Savior."

Because the Savior seeks all those who do not seek Him, because all men are fools thinking there is no God, by no capability of believing in God, in them.

Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Psalm 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Bnr: "Galatians 5:4 you have been severed from Christ, you have fallen from grace. Matthew 24:10-13 many will fall away but the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Now we understand, they are not given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven.

That is to receive the grace of God in vain, or b as the Apostles, of the only true examples of following Christ ( as all were chosen and ordained as told to you)....

Galatians 4:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,

2 Corinthians 6:11 O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.
12 Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.
13 Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 15, 2021

prophecy_uk said:
Free: "Scripture teaches that those with faith OUGHT to act in accordance with their faith.

That's what the commands are about."

]cripture teaches that God is a Spirit, and it is the Spirit of faith that works, as God is one and not divided.

OK.

The same as man without faith ( of the Holy Spirit of Christ) act on what they believe in, to do the evil work they live for.

OK.

Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

OK.

Now, what is your point here?

I said:
Free: "You just flipped off my explanation. John 5:25 is very clear. THE DEAD WILL HEAR.

Your take on the issue is that "the dead will be made alive and THEN hear". Which isn't biblical. As I've shown."

Passed from death to life, is to be taken out of condemnation, to justification 9 in Christ Jesus)

How does this help your claims or refute mine?

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

You quoted this excellent verse. But, do you believe it? Jesus said those who believe POSSESS eternal life. Do you believe that the moment one believes, they ARE a believer and therefore HAVE eternal life, as Jesus stated?

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Do you believe this verse? Jesus said "the dead shall hear". Do you believe Jesus?

Jesus said to us, if a man ( such as Lasarus) shall keep the Lords saying, they shall never see death.

Jesus was speaking about those who have believed in Him shall never perish.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Ditto here.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Guarantee of eternal life.

It seems you never answer my questions or address my points.

I've addressed your post. Now, if you are unwilling to answer my questions, then just please don't bother posting to me again. I'm not interested in this one-sided discussion.

I KNOW what you post. I read them and reply to them.

My questions are designed to further understand your position.

So if you don't answer my questions, I will know that you aren't interested in clarifying your beliefs. So please don't bother replying if you aren't interested in interaction.

Thank you.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 15, 2021

prophecy_uk said:
Freegrace: " Show me any verse that says any of this. All I'm seeing here is your presumption. Which is totally unbiblical.

Every time you argue against eternal security, you are arguing against the Bible."

Freegrace: "That is NOT possible. Jesus was clear about WHEN a person possesses eternal life (Jn 5:24), and the result of having eternal life (Jn 10:28)."

Here is your idea of eternal salvation.

I'm not interested in your opinion of what you think is my "idea of eternal salvation".

I KNOW what Jesus taught. It seems you just don't believe what Jesus taught. We've been through all this enough. In my previous post I asked specific and direct questions.

Either answer them or just stop posting to me. I don't want this lop-sided one-sided discussion. You have been ignoring my points and verses. I'm done with that.

You STILL haven't provided ANY verse that clearly shows loss of salvation, or a saved person going to hell.

prophecy_uk · Sep 15, 2021

Freegrace: "Your take on the issue is that "the dead will be made alive and THEN hear". Which isn't biblical. As I've shown."

"Do you believe this verse? Jesus said "the dead shall hear". Do you believe Jesus?"

All the descriptions we are taught in the entire Epistles, is we are dead in our sins, this is how we are risen with the Lord, to to alive unto righteousness.

Just the same as, to the living there is more hope, of a living dog, than a dead lion..

Ecclesiastes 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

prophecy_uk · Sep 15, 2021

That is the answer to the thread title, about dead faith.

The body ( the man in the flesh) is dead without Spirit ( dead without the living Spirit of Christ)

So the ( dead) in the flesh cannot please God, but if we are in the Spirit we are Christs ( are then living)...

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

There is no faith the dead.

Jesus therefore is the first and only begotten of the dead, ( as He alone is LIFE)

Jesus then raises us by His Spirit in us, or we will never rise..

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

prophecy_uk · Sep 15, 2021

Of course this message is not for Freegrace people, how would it be ?

Christ is the first begotten of the dead, if others are raised from the dead, they die again, as the life of Christ is what overcomes death..

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

If Christ is not risen, all who are alive die, are dead in their sins, even if they rose from the dead.

But now, Christ is risen, and is the first fruits ( of overcoming death to life for us to believe in, trust and follow) of the dead, ( of them that slept) in death.

By Adam came death, and by Christ the Son of man came the resurrection of the dead ( Christ is the resurrection and the life, no other man is)

So all men after Adam die, but all who get to be in Christ ( and the Spirit of Christ in them) SHALL BE MADE ALIVE..

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 15, 2021

prophecy_uk said:
Freegrace: "Your take on the issue is that "the dead will be made alive and THEN hear". Which isn't biblical. As I've shown."

"Do you believe this verse? Jesus said "the dead shall hear". Do you believe Jesus?"

All the descriptions we are taught in the entire Epistles, is we are dead in our sins, this is how we are risen with the Lord, to to alive unto righteousness.

This doesn't answer or even address my comment.

Just the same as, to the living there is more hope, of a living dog, than a dead lion..

Ditto here.

Ecclesiastes 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

Ditto here.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Why are you unable/unwiling to address my point?

John 5:25 SAYS "the dead will hear".

Now, do you believe that? Or do you hold to the Calvinist doctrine that the dead MUST be regenerated in order to hear?

FreeGrace2 · Sep 15, 2021

prophecy_uk said:
Of course this message is not for Freegrace people, how would it be ?

Of course you are not interested in discussion with me. You either have no answers or you know that your answers will be seen as going against Scripture.

You provide long posts, but no substance that supports your beliefs.

Doug Brents · Sep 15, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
That was a very specific context, and it applied ONLY to those who Jesus addressed. The issue was the unbelievers who rejected Jesus as Messiah attributed His miracles to the devil. iow, they were so negative that even His miracles didn't move them. They were refusing to believe.

Only those who SAW the miracles and attributed them to the devil were guilty of this sin.

I have no idea where you got that drivel. There is absolutely nothing about the context of that passage that limits that sin to a particular group, time, or place.

FreeGrace2 said:
There is nothing in that passage about losing salvation. The issue was believers who were or thinking of returning to the Law and sacrifices in order to satisfy God. That is blasphemy, since Christ had already paid for all sin. The passage says these people couldn't be "brought back to repentance". iow, they wouldn't change their minds.

But why are you still trying in vain to prove that salvation can be lost?

That can only mean that you don't believe what Jesus said about WHEN one possesses eternal life, per John 5:24, and that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, per Jn 10:28.

Why do I insist that a person can lose their salvation?
BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS!!
It is very clear for anyone with the discernment of the Holy Spirit that a man can come to believe the Gospel, be baptized into Christ (and thus be saved), and then turn his back on God, deny the faith, and let go of his salvation, thus ending up in Hell.

FreeGrace2 said:
I never said believers can't "fall from grace". I WILL say that falling from grace isn't loss of salvation, or Jesus was lying in Jn 10:28. I refuse to believe that.

And I have always stressed the FACT that disobedient/rebellious children of God WILL experience God's PAINFUL discipline (Heb 12:11). iow, they won't get away with anything.

Let’s say you believe, are baptized into Christ, and live be for a while as a Christ following Christian. But after a short time you experience a trial that causes you to become angry at God. You curse God, and begin living a life of rampant, unconfessed, unrepentant sin. Are you still saved if you die in this condition?
NO!! If we confess our sins, He will forgive them. If we endure to the end, there is a crown of life.
Consider the unforgiving servant. He was forgiven. He was free of his debt. But because he was unforgiving to his fellows, his debt was reinstated and he was forced to pay all (death in Hell). And so will we be if we act likewise.

FreeGrace2 said:
You are just not listening then. Why do you think that God's only punishment available is to remove salvation from His children?

Look at the Old Covenant. What were the possible punishments for violating the Law? For a very few crimes (mostly accidental crimes) there were financial consequences. But for EVERYTHING else the only punishment was death. Murder-death. Dishonor to parents-death. Rape-death. Lying-death. As James 2:10 says.

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you earn a gift? No. Do you earn your paycheck? Hopefully you do. The Bible commands believers to earn their pay.

Salvation is a gift. You cannot earn it. You (and I) certainly don't deserve it. But God gives salvation as a gift. Eph 2:8

Indeed it is a gift that we do not deserve. But we must meet the conditions God set for the reception of that gift. He put the gift out there for us, but we have to accept it through faith (our belief in action) to receive it (Eph 2:8-9).

FreeGrace2 said:
Nowhere did Jesus say or even imply that the 2 soils that didn't produce fruit lost salvation. Again, you are only inserting your own presumption into the passage.

The first did not receive the seed (Word), because the birds (Satan) took it. The second and third received it and began to grow (saved). But each was killed by something of this world (lost salvation). Only the fourth soil endured and produced fruit (the fruit of the Spirit, and salvation (his own, and that of others)).

FreeGrace2 said:
But the bottom line for Arminians

You keep using that word. I have no idea what you mean by it. I am a Christian. I follow the Christ, the Messiah, God.

I do not know who Armin is, he did not die for me, nor is he my creator, and so I do not follow him.

FreeGrace2 said:
That would mean that God can UN-born us. That is absurd.

“UN-born us” ROTFL Just wow!

We are born again when we are saved. But Rev 20:6 & 14, say that there will be a second death. Those who do not endure to the end, whose names have been blotted out from the Boo of Life, will not be part of the first resurrection, and so they will be subject to the second death (the final banishment from God’s presence.

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