One Reason to Reject Amill Doctrine

Timtofly said:

Where did Jesus says this?

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Lk 21
33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
34 “But be on your guard, so that your hearts will not be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that this day will not come on you suddenly, like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who live on the face of all the earth. 36 But stay alert at all times, praying that you will have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”



Matt 24
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.




[ Quote Tim /]
John claims at the end of the Millennium heaven and earth pass away. This Millennium starts at the Second Coming.]

See what Jesus meant in the above Quotes.....and believe.

jeffweedaman said:

Silly.

Whoever believes does not come into judgment , just like those on the ark were unaffected by the flood judgment

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I agree, post judgment is the wrong time to save one from judgment.

Timtofly said:

I would say living by the Law is the same thought process of persevering through the Tribulation where allegedly to save the flesh, one must.

Judgment came to Israel, and hard, many times, because they did not keep the Law. Their flesh was destroyed many times, by the heathen nations around them.

All flesh will be destroyed at the Second Coming sooner or later. It is really not about running a marathon, when it comes to "running" until the end of the Tribulation.

Running as Paul equates it, is just every day normal life. The flesh is crucified daily.

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The gospel of the kingdom will restart again during the Tribulation, and yes, obeying the Law is part of that gospel (Matthew 5:17-19).

But now, we are not under Law.

jeffweedaman said:

Lk 21
33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
34 “But be on your guard, so that your hearts will not be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that this day will not come on you suddenly, like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who live on the face of all the earth. 36 But stay alert at all times, praying that you will have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”



Matt 24
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

See what Jesus meant in the above Quotes.....and believe.

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Nothing in there about the Second Coming being after heaven and earth pass away.

The only thing to remain are the words of Jesus.

Jesus also mentions Noah after heaven and earth pass away. Pretty sure the order of Jesus' words in the OD are not chronological according to when events happen.

Just The Facts said:

Hi Jeff



That is nonsense

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Why are you so angry?

[7] But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist have been stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Here Peter is clearly saying that Judgement day is yet to come. Peter clearly believes that the 1,000 years has not yet happened Satan has not been bound. I will now offer proof Peter did not believe Satan was bound.

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What has this to do with some supposed future millennium after the coming of Christ? Nothing!

[8] Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour.

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Plain words no interpretation just Peters very plain words. Now back to 2Peter

[8]But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Here Peter explains that to God one day is equal to 1,000 years to us. And this is where the amill twisting of the plain words of Scripture start in these verses. They say no no no he says "is as" meaning just a long time. one day is as a thousand years, Which in the first part of the verse the English translation and the word combination "is as" MIGHT suggest that, HOWEVER that theory of amills it stopped dead in its tracks by a thousand years as one day. The second section does not make that suggested statement at all. It sates very plainly that a thousand years is a day. So as we see it is amills that refuse to accept Peter's plain words.

But lets deal with the first part one day is as a thousand years, Does the use of "as is" really mean that it is not saying that it just plain is.

Well no it does not I can say the lake is full of water as is the river. Steak is made from Beef as is burger. I could go on for ever. So just because you say "as is" it does not mean that it is not a direct comparison of the exact same things. The fact that the second half a thousand years as one day proves what Peter is saying ie: it is not "like" it just plain is.

I will stop here because if it is too long people just ignore 99% of it.

I have shown that Peter did not believe Judgement day had come nor did he believe that the Devil was bound for a thousand years so Kingdom not yet come. I have also shown that Peter very plainly taught that to God one Day is equal to 1,000 years. I have used nothing but Scripture to prove this.

So Your Claim Sovereign Grace claim and other amill's claims premills have not dealt with the plain words of Peter is ABSOLUTE nonsense. The same goes for all the other verses you say we have not dealt with. As I said in another post I am amazed at how Amills try to use verses that prove they are wrong to prove they are right. it is a lot of bla bla bla words with no truth to them and not based in fact or the plain words of Scripture.

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Peter teaches a climactic return of Jesus. No one or nothing survives. There is no suggestion of some supposed millennium following Christ's appearing as a thief in the night. No, just wholesale destruction. You have yet to concede that. What follows this destruction is the NHNE, not a millennium. Check the text!

Revelation 20 shows what every passage shows that the coming of Christ is climactic. The millennium relates to the last days period - since the first resurrection to the general resurrection.

Revelation 20:11-15 says, “I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled (pheugo) away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God … And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”

This is the second coming!

The Greek word pheugo is “a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish.”

Here we see “the earth and the heaven” flee away from the very presence of Christ coming upon His throne; it is clearly His appearing that ushers in the end. The arrival of the king of glory also sees the resurrection of the dead (righteous and wicked). Elsewhere in Scripture these things are located at His Coming. In fact, it is difficult to see how Premils can locate this event at anything other time than the second coming when we allow for the many plain climactic passages in Scripture.

Revelation 20:11-15 agrees with 2 Peter 3:10-13: “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

We see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The word en is used 2,831 times in Scripture and is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” or “within” throughout. Significantly, it is not translated as ‘near,’ ‘close to’ or ‘close by’ in any of these references. Support for the complete demolition attending the actual appearance of Christ in all His glory is also found in the same chapter in 2 Peter 3:12, which explains, “Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.”

1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

sovereigngrace said:

What has this to do with some supposed future millennium after the coming of Christ? Nothing!

Peter teaches a climactic return of Jesus. No one or nothing survives. There is no suggestion of some supposed millennium following Christ's appearing as a thief in the night. No, just wholesale destruction. You have yet to concede that. What follows this destruction is the NHNE, not a millennium. Check the text!

Revelation 20 shows what every passage shows that the coming of Christ is climactic. The millennium relates to the last days period - since the first resurrection to the general resurrection.

Revelation 20:11-15 says, “I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled (pheugo) away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God … And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”

This is the second coming!

The Greek word pheugo is “a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish.”

Here we see “the earth and the heaven” flee away from the very presence of Christ coming upon His throne; it is clearly His appearing that ushers in the end. The arrival of the king of glory also sees the resurrection of the dead (righteous and wicked). Elsewhere in Scripture these things are located at His Coming. In fact, it is difficult to see how Premils can locate this event at anything other time than the second coming when we allow for the many plain climactic passages in Scripture.

Revelation 20:11-15 agrees with 2 Peter 3:10-13: “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

We see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The word en is used 2,831 times in Scripture and is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” or “within” throughout. Significantly, it is not translated as ‘near,’ ‘close to’ or ‘close by’ in any of these references. Support for the complete demolition attending the actual appearance of Christ in all His glory is also found in the same chapter in 2 Peter 3:12, which explains, “Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.”

1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

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Revelation 20 is not the Second Coming. It is clearly just heaven and earth passing away, leaving only the GWT.

The Second Coming is when spiritual blindness is removed so all will see the GWT.

"hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb! For the Great Day of their fury has come, and who can stand?”

If everything on earth is gone, how can these people be hiding from the GWT? Those in Revelation 20:12 are already dead physically, without bodies.

"Next I saw a great white throne and the One sitting on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of the throne."

No one is hiding at this point over 1000 years later. These two events are totally different from one another.

sovereigngrace said:

Why are you so angry?



What has this to do with some supposed future millennium after the coming of Christ? Nothing!



Peter teaches a climactic return of Jesus. No one or nothing survives. There is no suggestion of some supposed millennium following Christ's appearing as a thief in the night. No, just wholesale destruction. You have yet to concede that. What follows this destruction is the NHNE, not a millennium. Check the text!

Revelation 20 shows what every passage shows that the coming of Christ is climactic. The millennium relates to the last days period - since the first resurrection to the general resurrection.

Revelation 20:11-15 says, “I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled (pheugo) away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God … And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”

This is the second coming!

The Greek word pheugo is “a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish.”

Here we see “the earth and the heaven” flee away from the very presence of Christ coming upon His throne; it is clearly His appearing that ushers in the end. The arrival of the king of glory also sees the resurrection of the dead (righteous and wicked). Elsewhere in Scripture these things are located at His Coming. In fact, it is difficult to see how Premils can locate this event at anything other time than the second coming when we allow for the many plain climactic passages in Scripture.

Revelation 20:11-15 agrees with 2 Peter 3:10-13: “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

We see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The word en is used 2,831 times in Scripture and is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” or “within” throughout. Significantly, it is not translated as ‘near,’ ‘close to’ or ‘close by’ in any of these references. Support for the complete demolition attending the actual appearance of Christ in all His glory is also found in the same chapter in 2 Peter 3:12, which explains, “Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.”

1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

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Thanks Bro ,well said.

Just The Facts said:

Hi Sov



Not Angry just stating a fact it is nonsense that no one has dealt with those verses or amill points.

Why are you so angry?

Exactly bro! Premils need to start letting Scripture speak for itself instead of twisting it to fit their doctrine. .....posted by you in post #217



Here we go round the malberry bush the malberry bush......LOL Really Seriously you say the 1,000 years is happened or is happening right now 2 Peter 3:7 clearly shows Peter says the day of the Lord is yet to come.

I quoted

1Peter 5:[8] Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour.

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It is so hard to engage with you as you bounce from one subject to another. When one of your claims is rebutted, then you quickly move to another claim. When that is rebutted you move back to an already rebutted claim. That is one way to avoid the issues. Notwithstanding, I will try again.

With the coming of Christ to this earth came the introduction of His spiritual kingdom. With the introduction of His spiritual kingdom came a direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth. With the direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth came the spiritual empowerment of the people of God to confront and overcome Satan and his demonic angels.

Wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is bound!!!

Christ said, to the disciples in Luke 10:19, “Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.”

When you are tuned into heaven, when you are connected to heaven, all things are possible. God is big and the devil is small. The light is shining and the darkness is dispelled. Peace prevails and the power ensues.

Jesus said in Matthew 16:18-19: “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

God has entrusted power and authority to the Church in this age that the devil cannot in any way deal with or thwart. As Christians the highest authority existing on this earth has been delegated to us. Jesus Christ has commissioned us to enforce His will on this corrupt planet. He has filled us with His power. He has anointed us with His authority. We possess divine authority. That is why we come in His name.

Darkness cannot handle the light. When light shines, darkness must go. As the Church of Jesus Christ spreads the good news (or light of the Gospel) throughout the world the devil is exposed for who he is: he is stupid, he is a fool, he is a loser.

We have power over Satan since the cross! If you are walking in obedience, the devil has no authority over you. But you have much power over him. Think about this we have power over Satan and all his demons! He cannot do as he pleases against the people of God. There is much Scripture that says we have power over him.

Some Christians respond, but what about 1 Peter 5:8? Let us read it: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.” The very next verse 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.”

The true Church of Jesus Christ is a resistance movement. While Satan resists us, the Bible says we have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against us. We resist the lawlessness and evil encroachments of the devil around us.

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is incredible! You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original means to escape, flee away or vanish. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to possess spiritual territory.

Do you cause Satan sleepless nights or does he cause you sleepless nights?

1 John 2:14: "I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one."

By resisting Satan, standing upon the Word of God, and staying steadfast, we have enormous individual impact upon the kingdom of darkness; we curtail the expansion of its evil designs.

Many Christians imagine power and authority to be the same thing. But as we found out last week: they are not! Scripture uses two different Greek words to describe the distinction.

Luk 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power [dunamis] and authority [exousia] over all devils, and to cure diseases."

· Authority = exousia
· Power = dunamis

Authority is the channel through which power operates. Authority is the legal authorization to function. Power has to do with the outworking of that authority.

According to this Satan should not have power and authority over you, but you should have power and authority over him.

1 John 5:18: “he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Do you believe that? Why? The genuine believer has authority over him. He has none over them.

It is not just that he cannot stop us or hurt us as we operate in the Spirit but it is that we can actually hurt him. That is the good news of New Testament age we live in.

Just The Facts said:

Peter teaches a total destruction at the end of the day of the Lord which he clearly states is a 1,000 years.

So

1. The Kingdom only comes when Jesus returns not when youare saved or die.
2. Satan is bond for a 1,000 years When Jesus returns and Peter says he is Not bound.

So Jesus did not teach Amill Peter did not teach amill.

I Stand by my original statement Jesus the Apostles Saints did not teach Amill.

Oh and you have still yet to produce one early church Father that taught amill both Clement and Barnabas were premill I have posted verses from both that clearly state their belief the promise was yet unfulfilled. The Kingdom was yet to come.

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This does not add up. If the day of the Lord = a literal 1,000 years then your doctrine is destroyed, allowing no possibility for Satan's "little season." Remember, in your paradigm, the destruction of the world must occur within that 1,000 year day of the Lord!!! Moreover, if the day of the Lord includes both the 1,000 literal years and Satan's "little season, then your 1 day = 1,000 literal years is also destroyed, the day of the Lord = 1,000 years + Satan's "little season, which represents and unspecific period. Bang goes your corroboration for a future millennium.

sovereigngrace said:

It is so hard to engage with you as you bounce from one subject to another. When one of your claims is rebutted, then you quickly move to another claim. When that is rebutted you move back to an already rebutted claim. That is one way to avoid the issues. Notwithstanding, I will try again.

With the coming of Christ to this earth came the introduction of His spiritual kingdom. With the introduction of His spiritual kingdom came a direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth. With the direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth came the spiritual empowerment of the people of God to confront and overcome Satan and his demonic angels.

Wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is bound!!!

Christ said, to the disciples in Luke 10:19, “Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.”

When you are tuned into heaven, when you are connected to heaven, all things are possible. God is big and the devil is small. The light is shining and the darkness is dispelled. Peace prevails and the power ensues.

Jesus said in Matthew 16:18-19: “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

God has entrusted power and authority to the Church in this age that the devil cannot in any way deal with or thwart. As Christians the highest authority existing on this earth has been delegated to us. Jesus Christ has commissioned us to enforce His will on this corrupt planet. He has filled us with His power. He has anointed us with His authority. We possess divine authority. That is why we come in His name.

Darkness cannot handle the light. When light shines, darkness must go. As the Church of Jesus Christ spreads the good news (or light of the Gospel) throughout the world the devil is exposed for who he is: he is stupid, he is a fool, he is a loser.

We have power over Satan since the cross! If you are walking in obedience, the devil has no authority over you. But you have much power over him. Think about this we have power over Satan and all his demons! He cannot do as he pleases against the people of God. There is much Scripture that says we have power over him.

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What does any of that have to do with any of the following? In what way does that correlate with anything below?

that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season(Revelation 20:3)----And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them(Revelation 20:7-9).

sovereigngrace said:

This is incredible! You resist, he must flee.

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What's to resist, though, assuming Amil? If he is supposed to be in the pit at the time, thus bound, that would be like picturing a real lion that is trapped in a pit in the ground, and as long as one resists him, he is going to flee. Going to flee to where? lol. He's already trapped underground in a pit, nowhere to flee to, obviously. Not to mention, if he is trapped in a pit, he certainly would not be roaming about outside of the pit at the same time to begin with.

The Bible uses real world imagery for a reason, and if what is depicted is not possible if it were being applied to a real world scenario, the same applies when the Bible uses imagery like that to illustrate what something is comparable to if involving a real world scenario. In a real world scenario there is no such thing as a lion that is supposed to be trapped in the ground in a pit, while at the same time, it is also freely roaming about seeking whom it might devour, and if one resists it, it will flee. That paints a picture involving nonsense not a picture making sense instead.

Just The Facts said:

When Jesus returns you go to the Kingdom NOT when youare baptised not when you die ONLY when Jesus returns.

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Just The Facts said:

1. The Kingdom only comes when Jesus returns not when youare saved or die.

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Seems you missed this:

Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Have you not been translated into the kingdom?

Just The Facts said:

Hi Jeff



That is nonsense people have been posting very plain explanations of all those verses over the past 21 pages of this thread. You just refuse to accept the plain words of Peter for example. So I will go through it verse by verse.

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Wow, this is something new. A premil actually breaking down a passage and showing exactly how they interpret it. I don't know if I've ever seen this before.

[4] and saying, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things have continued as they were from the beginning of creation."

Peter says people will start to doubt that Jesus will return. This started to happen in the mid 2nd century Justin Martyr states it very plainly this was happening in his time. Some Christians tired of being mocked and not having the patience to wait created a doctrine where by the Promise is divided into two pieces. They stated the Kingdom ie: Christs rule /1,000 years has Come but it is in heaven and not seen. When you die you either go to Heaven or Hell. This is amill doctrine this is Peter warning us to be patient and wait.

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Are you saying you think the last days started in the 2nd century? Why did Peter give the impression that he was talking about people who would be scoffing right up until the actual return of Christ then? Sure, there have been people scoffing about His return for a long time already. Even in the 1st century. But, that doesn't seem to be what Peter had in mind since he was talking about something that would be happening just before the return of Christ.

[7] But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist have been stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Here Peter is clearly saying that Judgement day is yet to come. Peter clearly believes that the 1,000 years has not yet happened Satan has not been bound. I will now offer proof Peter did not believe Satan was bound.

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You are skipping over an important detail that Peter shared. Why did you not include verses 5 and 6 in your commentary?

2 Peter 3:5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

What Peter indicated here is that just as the world was destroyed by the flood waters long ago (in Noah's day obviously), "BY THE SAME WORD the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire". No wonder you skipped this part. It clearly supports amil. He was saying that just as the world was destroyed by water long ago, BY THE SAME WORD (in the same sense) it will be destroyed in the future, only this time by fire. And this is all related directly to the day of the second coming of Christ.

[8] Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour.

Plain words no interpretation just Peters very plain words. Now back to 2Peter

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He can't just devour whoever he wants. All we need to do is resist him and he will flee from us (James 4:7). Did you forget that?

[8]But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Here Peter explains that to God one day is equal to 1,000 years to us. And this is where the amill twisting of the plain words of Scripture start in these verses. They say no no no he says "is as" meaning just a long time. one day is as a thousand years, Which in the first part of the verse the English translation and the word combination "is as" MIGHT suggest that, HOWEVER that theory of amills it stopped dead in its tracks by a thousand years as one day. The second section does not make that suggested statement at all. It sates very plainly that a thousand years is a day. So as we see it is amills that refuse to accept Peter's plain words.

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I hope you start clarifying what in the world you're trying to say here because so far it's coming across as complete nonsense.

But lets deal with the first part one day is as a thousand years, Does the use of "is as" really mean that it is not saying that it just plain is.

Well no it does not. I can say the lake is full of water is as a river. Steak is made from Beef is as a burger. I could go on for ever. So just because you say "is as " it does not mean that it is not a direct comparison of the exact same things. The reality is "is as" is old English you would never put "is" before "as" in modern English except in poetry. The fact that the second half a thousand years as one day proves what Peter is saying ie: it is not "like" it just plain is.

I will stop here because if it is too long people just ignore 99% of it.

I have shown that Peter did not believe Judgement day had come nor did he believe that the Devil was bound for a thousand years so Kingdom not yet come. I have also shown that Peter very plainly taught that to God one Day is equal to 1,000 years. I have used nothing but Scripture to prove this.

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If one day was equal to 1000 years to God then that would mean God was confined within the realm of time. But He is not. He created time and exists outside of the realm of time. So, one day is not equal to 1000 years to God. What Peter was saying is that one day and one thousand years are no different to God because He is not affected at all by time. And, because of that, God has a lot of patience while giving people the opportunity to repent and He is not in any hurry to have His Son return. The scoffers might say it's been a long time, but it hasn't been long from God's perspective.

Beyond all that, though, what even was your point here? What do you think you proved? Why did you not continue on into verses 9-13? How do you interpret those?

So Your Claim Sovereign Grace claim and other amill's claims premills have not dealt with the plain words of Peter is ABSOLUTE nonsense. The same goes for all the other verses you say we have not dealt with. As I said in another post I am amazed at how Amills try to use verses that prove they are wrong to prove they are right. it is a lot of bla bla bla words with no truth to them and not based in fact or the plain words of Scripture.

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Can you deal with 2 Peter 3:5-6 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 now? I'd like to see your interpretation of those. It's interesting that you didn't bother doing that in this post.

DavidPT said:

What's to resist, though, assuming Amil? If he is supposed to be in the pit at the time, thus bound, that would be like picturing a real lion that is trapped in a pit in the ground, and as long as one resists him, he is going to flee. Going to flee to where? lol. He's already trapped underground in a pit, nowhere to flee to, obviously. Not to mention, if he is trapped in a pit, he certainly would not be roaming about outside of the pit at the same time to begin with.

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You are talking about how YOU understand his binding, not how Amils understand it. We don't believe he's literally trapped in a pit as you understand his binding. You're responding to an Amil, so why are you not talking about Satan's binding in the way an Amil understands it? That makes no sense. Yeah, we get that it doesn't make sense to you because of your literal interpretation, but why don't you try to look at it from our perspective?

The Bible uses real world imagery for a reason, and if what is depicted is not possible if it were being applied to a real world scenario, the same applies when the Bible uses imagery like that to illustrate what something is comparable to if involving a real world scenario. In a real world scenario there is no such thing as a lion that is supposed to be trapped in the ground in a pit, while at the same time, it is also freely roaming about seeking whom it might devour, and if one resists it, it will flee. That paints a picture involving nonsense not a picture making sense instead.

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How many times do I have to tell you that the symbolic imagery does not have to resemble what it represents in reality?

For example, the harlot who sits on many waters and rides on the beast with seven heads and ten horns. Does that imagery represent reality in any way? Does what that represents in reality resemble a harlot sitting on many waters and riding a beast with seven heads and ten horns? Of course not. So, your point here of what a dragon being bound with a chain in a pit has to represent is invalid.

Spiritual Jew said:

If one day was equal to 1000 years to God then that would mean God was confined within the realm of time.

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I don't know what kind of argument this is and exactly what it's supposed to prove, but let's say, that instead of that, this instead----If one day was equal to 24 hours to God then that would mean God was confined within the realm of time. Would that be your conclusion as well?

DavidPT said:

What does any of that have to do with any of the following? In what way does that correlate with anything below?

that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season(Revelation 20:3)----And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them(Revelation 20:7-9).

What's to resist, though, assuming Amil? If he is supposed to be in the pit at the time, thus bound, that would be like picturing a real lion that is trapped in a pit in the ground, and as long as one resists him, he is going to flee. Going to flee to where? lol. He's already trapped underground in a pit, nowhere to flee to, obviously. Not to mention, if he is trapped in a pit, he certainly would not be roaming about outside of the pit at the same time to begin with.

The Bible uses real world imagery for a reason, and if what is depicted is not possible if it were being applied to a real world scenario, the same applies when the Bible uses imagery like that to illustrate what something is comparable to if involving a real world scenario. In a real world scenario there is no such thing as a lion that is supposed to be trapped in the ground in a pit, while at the same time, it is also freely roaming about seeking whom it might devour, and if one resists it, it will flee. That paints a picture involving nonsense not a picture making sense instead.

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(1) I wasn't even talking to you.
(2) I have explained this matter countless times to you and countless times you have rejected it. Why keep come back asking the same old same old? Why not admit you have no interest in learning the Amil position?

You need to see that we are looking at a symbolic portrayal of the invisible realm, in this case, the demonic realm. Revelation is written in an apocalyptic manner. It is not the symbol that is important. It is what the symbol means.

Let us establish an important fact: Revelation 20 does not directly say that Satan is “bound.” It is actually the “dragon” in this symbolic depiction which represents Satan that is “bound.” After all, Satan is not a literal “dragon.” The “dragon” is simply a symbol relating to Satan. The dragon being bound up in chains and imprisoned symbolizes Satan’s inability to deceive the Gentiles “nations” since the 1st Advent. So, it doesn’t say that Satan would be sealed in a “prison” in the illustration, but rather the “dragon” would be sealed in a “prison.”

Let us be crystal clear: invisible spirits are not held in a physical prison with literal chains. We are looking at figurative language explaining the restraint Satan and his minions have been under since the First Advent. Amil believes that the kingdom of God is in conflict with Satan but that the chains upon him, the beast and the fallen angels are spiritual preventing them from thwarting the great commission to the nations (Gentiles). He cannot stop their enlightening. The chains restrict his previous global influence. He was basically unchallenged outside of Israel. The “binding” mentioned in Revelation 20 is speaking metaphorically of Satan's authority over the Gentile nations, which was dealt a decisive blow through the resurrection of Christ.

• Firstly, the binding of Satan is spiritual. Satan is not human and physical. He is a spirit. A spirit cannot be held by physical restraints. What is more, he is not in a physical prison or is he restrained by metal chains.
• Secondly, the binding does not suggest our enemy must be motionless or does it describe inactivity. Prisoners have movement in a prison albeit in a limited capacity, under strict rules and within controlled confines.
• Thirdly, Revelation 20 does not suggest that the devil is unable to inflict harm on anyone while bound. Everyone knows that a prisoner can perpetrate all types of crimes within the prison precincts.

When the Bible depicts the wicked as being bound in chains and held in prison is it intended to paint a picture of a literal prisoner bound by literal chains in a literal prison? Of course not. When it suits Premils they can easily grasp the symbolism throughout Scripture. But when it cuts across their beloved Premil doctrine they suddenly become rigid, hyper-literalist and unreasonable. The most damning thing for their argument is, the setting we are looking at is undoubtedly extremely figurative.

Do you know of any physical chains that could possibly physically restrain a demonic spirit in a physical prison?

Do you really believe that Revelation 20 is describing Satan being restrained for 'one thousand years' after the second Coming when "a thousand" is symbolically used to represent a long period of time or a large amount and when there is no other mention of this 'one thousand years' anywhere else in the Bible? Again, when it suits Premils they have no difficulty grasping the symbolic use of "a thousand" throughout the Word. But when it cuts across their beloved Premil doctrine they suddenly become rigid, hyper-literalist and unreasonable.

Of course, the imagery of chains and imprisonment being experienced by this dragon is intended to convey the real spiritual restraint, curtailment, damage, curtailment injury that has been executed upon our invisible spiritual foe since the 1st Advent; one that is not limited to a physical spatial geographical or physical place.

The “binding” mentioned in Revelation 20 is speaking metaphorically of Satan's authority over the Gentile nations, which was dealt a decisive blow through the resurrection of Christ.

Of course not. We are looking at figurative language. This symbolism is presented to depict his vicious and subtle malevolence. It shows the danger of his presence and danger of his ability.

1. Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
2. Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
3. Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
4. Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
5. Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
6. Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
7. Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
8. Does imprisonment mean immobility?
9. Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
10. Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
11. Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
12. Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

Just The Facts said:

Peter teaches a total destruction at the end of the day of the Lord which he clearly states is a 1,000 years.

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This statement does not line up with the actual text in 2 Peter 3. Peter said that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night (2 Peter 3:10). How does it come as a thief in the night if it lasts for 1,000 years? Please answer that.

Also, Peter said that what would happen during the day of the Lord is that "The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.". Where did he indicate that this would only happen at the end of the day of the Lord?

How do you interpret this passage where Paul wrote about the same event:

1 Thessalonians 5:1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober.

What do you think it means for the day of the Lord to come as a thief in the night? Notice that the destruction comes on unbelievers suddenly and they will not escape it. That means it's sudden and unexpected which is exactly what that day coming as a thief in the night implies. This means the destruction must come upon the arrival of the day of the Lord, not a long time after it initially comes as you try to claim.

Why would Paul say to his readers that they "are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief" if the destruction that comes with that day couldn't happen during their lifetimes? It's your view that it wasn't possible for the destruction to come in their lifetimes (or in our lifetimes) because you believe it doesn't happen until 1000 years after the beginning of the day of the Lord. That doesn't fit at all with what Paul (or Peter) taught about the day of the Lord. He warned that the destruction could potentially happen in his and his readers' lifetimes but it wasn't something believers needed to be concerned about because we "are all children of the light and children of the day".

Instead of being destroyed, we will be changed and caught up to meet the Lord "in the air" as Paul wrote just before the passage I quoted above in 1 Thess 4:14-17. Have you never considered that the reason we need to be caught up "in the air" is to avoid the destruction coming down on the entire earth at that time?

What Peter and Paul taught regarding the destruction that will come on the day Christ returns is no different than what Jesus Himself taught. Observe:

Matthew 24:37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Just as all unbelievers were killed in the flood in Noah's day "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man", which means all unbelievers will be killed at Christ's return as well. All of these scriptures teach that. Amils do not set Paul's words against Jesus's words at all like you tried to claim. Far from it.

DavidPT said:

I don't know what kind of argument this is and exactly what it's supposed to prove, but let's say, that instead of that, this instead----If one day was equal to 24 hours to God then that would mean God was confined within the realm of time. Would that be your conclusion as well?

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Yes. I don't think this is too hard to understand. God is not affected by time at all and exists outside the realm of time and space. Do you disagree?