Intelligent/Electrical Design

Doveaman · Sep 14, 2021

The form and shape of organisms are not determined by DNA alone, but also by external electromagnetic forces:

The form and shape of matter is not self-organized by the matter, but is imposed upon the matter by external electromagnetic forces:

Gene2memE · Sep 14, 2021

A child's (mis)understanding of DNA, making the mistakes of a child.

Yttrium · Sep 14, 2021

Let me get this straight. Apparently, the form of organisms and matter itself is determined by external electric fields. These fields somehow pick out the spawn of a certain species of frog and shape it into another of the same species. They find some freezing water and make it form a symmetric snowflake pattern.

But then what makes the electric fields form the way they do and recognize what they're affecting? You've added an extra layer that is much more mysterious than the first. Not only that, but we should be able to detect these form-making electric fields, and we don't. The electric fields would have to be all over the place.

Meanwhile, electrical effects take place inside organisms all the time. As an obvious example, we have synapses in our nervous systems that pass electrical signals. Electrical fields can be applied by and within the body itself... as determined by the DNA.

As far as inorganic matter goes, atoms and molecules bond in certain ways. Note that electrons and protons have charges on them. An external electric field can certainly help determine the shape of matter, but no external field is really necessary. The matter can supply its own.

I see nothing but a nutty crackpot theory with these videos.

Ponderous Curmudgeon · Sep 14, 2021

Yttrium said:
Let me get this straight. Apparently, the form of organisms and matter itself is determined by external electric fields. These fields somehow pick out the spawn of a certain species of frog and shape it into another of the same species. They find some freezing water and make it form a symmetric snowflake pattern.

But then what makes the electric fields form the way they do and recognize what they're affecting? You've added an extra layer that is much more mysterious than the first. Not only that, but we should be able to detect these form-making electric fields, and we don't. The electric fields would have to be all over the place.

Meanwhile, electrical effects take place inside organisms all the time. As an obvious example, we have synapses in our nervous systems that pass electrical signals. Electrical fields can be applied by and within the body itself... as determined by the DNA.

As far as inorganic matter goes, atoms and molecules bond in certain ways. Note that electrons and protons have charges on them. An external electric field can certainly help determine the shape of matter, but no external field is really necessary. The matter can supply its own.

I see nothing but a nutty crackpot theory with these videos.

Oooh Weee Oooh, I have an idea and I will apply it to everything.

Come back when you have a focused hypothesis with some evidence. Definitely not ready for prime time.
But I have heard worse, unfortunately.

FrumiousBandersnatch · Sep 15, 2021

I'll be generous and say that Clarage's descriptions are what you get when you view scientific research through the eyes of strong confirmation bias.

Bioelectric fields are involved in morphogenesis, which is not entirely surprising since the electromagnetic force is the only force besides 'dumb' gravity to have sufficient range and variability to be relevant at meso-scales, but they are not the be-all and end-all.

Perhaps it's best to let Clarage's inspiration, Dr Michael Levin, describe it in his own words:

"...what the genome encodes is a bunch of parts that when implemented in parallel, it makes a piece of hardware that has a very reliable default behavior. That default behavior is a set of biochemical, biomechanical and bioelectrical circuits that if nothing weird happens to them by their normal behavior in their normal environment, they will generate a set of patterns that give rise to a standard frog."

This is taken from the Mindscape podcast where Levin talks to Sean Carroll. A text transcript is available below the podcast post (before the comments).

Doveaman · Sep 15, 2021

FrumiousBandersnatch said:
Perhaps it's best to let Clarage's inspiration, Dr Michael Levin, describe it in his own words:

"...what the genome encodes is a bunch of parts that when implemented in parallel, it makes a piece of hardware that has a very reliable default behavior. That default behavior is a set of biochemical, biomechanical and bioelectrical circuits that if nothing weird happens to them by their normal behavior in their normal environment, they will generate a set of patterns that give rise to a standard frog."

So if the electrical environment is altered the biological structure of the frog can be altered:

FrumiousBandersnatch · Sep 15, 2021

Doveaman said:
So if the electrical environment is altered the biological structure of the frog can be altered:

The external electrical environment? No. Bioelectricity generally involves pumping ions across membranes to produce charge differences. The morphological patterns are encoded as patterns of active membrane ion channels. You can change the morphological pattern by specifically deactivating some of these ion channels, but external electric fields are unlikely to affect them, and electric shocks would likely only disrupt their operation temporarily, assuming the cells survived.

Note also that, according to Levin, the biomechanical, biochemical, and bioelectric 'circuitry' is the result of arrangements of parts coded in the genome (in contradiction to Clarage's presentation).

Changes in overall size are more likely to be a result of genetic changes influencing hormone levels/durations, e.g. growth hormone, or maturational factors.

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Intelligent/Electrical Design

Doveaman

Re-Created, Not Evolved.

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Gene2memE

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Yttrium

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Ponderous Curmudgeon

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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Doveaman

Re-Created, Not Evolved.

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