Trump allies try to recast Capitol rioters as patriots ahead of Sept. 18 ‘justice’ rally (msn.com)

Petros2015

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Anyone else got a bad feeling that the ranks of "patriots" are about to swell exponentially on 9/18?

I don't... (not exponentially, I'm expecting to see a presence, but a significantly deflated one) But, I haven't been paying as much attention lately. I'm not paid to, others are.

And, the ones that are paying people to pay attention aren't the same ones that would be giving "stand aside" or "delayed orders". During the capitol riots, there were repeated calls for support which had to go through a chain of command which included the person the rioters wanted in power, and possibly some of his supporters. I think he was probably too busy applauding himself on twitter to answer those cries for help.

That's not the case this time. I think they would encounter hyper-vigilance vs what was effectively a welcome mat before. Many of the root causers have been removed from command chains and banned from social media and that (I think) was an enormously powerful amplifier which was waaaaaaaaaaayyyy underestimated.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. That OK too.

I'm pretty adaptive.
 
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Lifelong_sinner

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Nope, not at all.

really?? So the govt telling us to respect gay marriage is ok with God?? Or that our govt accepts abortion as legal makes God happy??

we have a completely unjust govt, and im not just talking biden, im talking in all aspects for a good long while.
 
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TLK Valentine

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really?? So the govt telling us to respect gay marriage is ok with God?? Or that our govt accepts abortion as legal makes God happy??

Well, it ticks you off to no end, but you're not God. He strikes me as the forgiving type.

we have a completely unjust govt, and im not just talking biden, im talking in all aspects for a good long while.

A bunch of patriots felt the exact same way... and were moved to actually do something about it...

The date was July 4, 1776.
 
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wing2000

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I submit those things that I bolded, underlined and italicized apply to quite a few extremists not just extremists from one side of the political divide. They were on display repeatedly well before one particular incident occurred and continue to be on display to this day. I certainly cannot read George Bush's mind but if he was talking about only one particular group and no others you cannot tell from what he said.

But in their disdain for pluralism, in their disregard for human life, in their determination to defile national symbols, they are children of the same foul spirit. And it is our continuing duty to confront them."

Which other extremists defiled the chambers of our national legislature body and attempted to use violent force to stop their constitutionally mandated certification of the vote?
 
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grasping the after wind

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But in their disdain for pluralism, in their disregard for human life, in their determination to defile national symbols, they are children of the same foul spirit. And it is our continuing duty to confront them."

Which other extremists defiled the chambers of our national legislature body and attempted to use violent force to stop their constitutionally mandated certification of the vote?

Do you really believe that the unruly, uncoordinated mob that entered that building had any thought they had the ability to violently stop a constitutionally mandated certification of the vote? I seriously doubt that. and of course that did not occur as the certification happened and the only deadly violence that happen was the killing of one of the rioters. But if it makes you feel that your political side is superior go ahead and pretend smashing statues and spitting on or deficating on or burning the flag is not just as much defiling national symbols as anything done in the Capitol. Or pretend burning buildings , attacking and even killing people or ruining the livelihood of people just trying to make a living is not disregard for human life. Pretend that an armed takeover of blocks of a city and declaring it an independent entity is not an insurrection. As for pluralism, I would say it is correct to say the extremists on the right don't believe in it but the extremists on the left would, if they were being honest, define it as making sure everyone agrees with and complies with their vision of how the world should be or be else silenced. Unity to many means agree with us or be made to shut up.
 
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wing2000

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o you really believe that the unruly, uncoordinated mob that entered that building had any thought they had the ability to violently stop a constitutionally mandated certification of the vote?

You can't think of anyone else eh? It's pretty clear who G.W. was referring to.....

As for what they believed, their actions speak for their motivation. Whether you or I think they would be successful is irrelevant. The fact is they used violence to enforce their will and are now being held to account. That's what we do in this country no? Hold criminals, or in this case terrorists, accountable for their actions. Or do you want to continue making excuses for them?
 
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grasping the after wind

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There was a perception that the election had been conducted fraudulently, a perception not dispelled by the fact that the simple request for transparency and audits was immediately shot down and anyone who dared to ask the question immediately painted as conspiritorial. Given that these people believed the incoming government was illegitimately elected, and the legal means of redress were being blocked such a rebellion is commendable.

No it isn't. Neither commendable nor a rebellion. It was a mob of people acting irresponsibly as is the case whenever people gather in mobs. They were neither freedom fighters nor insurrectionists. They were simply a mob.
 
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Fervent

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No it isn't. Neither commendable nor a rebellion. It was a mob of people acting irresponsibly as is the case whenever people gather in mobs. They were neither freedom fighters nor insurrectionists. They were simply a mob.
Perhaps, though that's a different kettle of fish altogether. Seems to me there was a mixed multitude, some there to peacefully protest, some there just for destruction, and some there hoping it was the start of a war to reclaim the authority stolen by the federal government, especially the executive, over the 20th century.
 
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grasping the after wind

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You can't think of anyone else eh? It's pretty clear who G.W. was referring to.....

As for what they believed, their actions speak for their motivation. Whether you or I think they would be successful is irrelevant. The fact is they used violence to enforce their will and are now being held to account. That's what we do in this country no? Hold criminals, or in this case terrorists, accountable for their actions. Or do you want to continue making excuses for them?


Would you think I was being dishonest if I cherry picked a part of one of your posts and then made a series of assertions about you that anyone could see was contradicted by the rest of that post?
I would love to see criminals held responsible for their actions not just criminals that disagreed with me politically but all of them.
 
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grasping the after wind

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Perhaps, though that's a different kettle of fish altogether. Seems to me there was a mixed multitude, some there to peacefully protest, some there just for destruction, and some there hoping it was the start of a war to reclaim the authority stolen by the federal government, especially the executive, over the 20th century.

That is normal with mobs . The same sort of thing was true of the left wing mobs of 2020. There were people with different agendas and people caught up in the emotion who would never have done the awful things they did if not for the way mobs carry people away and for the way the authorities abdicated their responsibilities. Riots cannot get that out of hand unless those with the ability to control the situation allow it to happen.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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really?? So the govt telling us to respect gay marriage is ok with God?? Or that our govt accepts abortion as legal makes God happy??
Do any of those things cause us as individual Christians to sin? No, they do not.

we have a completely unjust govt, and im not just talking biden, im talking in all aspects for a good long while.
"completely unjust govt"? So when our government catches and puts a murderer in prison or to death it is unjust? When our government catches a thief and sends the thief to prison it is unjust? When the government catches a speeder and gives them a fine to pay it is unjust? You really believe that?

Our government is not perfect or entirely in line with God's Word on all their policies. That is true for every single government that ever existed on earth. The government at the time of St. Paul writing Romans 13 was involved in many ungodly practices. Yet still, right there in God's Word, we are commanded to subject ourselves to these authorities with the explanation from God Himself that they are still used as His Minister for justice for good to us. We are further admonished that failing to do so brings damnation to us.

If you want to have your own beliefs on the matter you are certainly entitled to that. However, if you are going to try to convince me or anyone else that Romans 13 is invalid you need much better evidence, especially scriptural evidence and you haven't produced any scriptural evidence whatsoever.
 
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wing2000

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Would you think I was being dishonest if I cherry picked a part of one of your posts and then made a series of assertions about you that anyone could see was contradicted by the rest of that post?
I would love to see criminals held responsible for their actions not just criminals that disagreed with me politically but all of them.

I was ignoring the irrelevant part of your post...where you pretend to know my feelings.

But if it makes you feel that your political side is superior go ahead and pretend smashing statues and spitting on or deficating on or burning the flag is not just as much defiling national symbols as anything done in the Capitol.
 
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Ponderous Curmudgeon

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I don't know of any elected official who is elected with a minority of the votes, so "the people" and their will is being represented correctly.
Uh, most recent obvious example . 2016 popular vote. Donald Trump actually got 3 million less votes than Hillary Clinton and was only elected due to the dare I say fraud of the electoral college.
 
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Hazelelponi

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I don't see that anywhere in God's Word. I see that Christians are to subject themselves to the government as they are God's ordained Ministers of His Justice to you for Truth and resisting it makes one subject to damnation.

But nothing in God's Word about rebellion, other than that it's the sin of witchcraft. But TJ wouldn't care, he was not a Christian, so of course what was good in his eyes goes against God's Word - there is a way that seems right to man but the ways thereof lead to destruction.

In America people have a voice in government making this a different kind of government than any known in Biblical times, and when they disagree with how the government is running things in their name they can present grievances, even protest government actions legally.

Was Martin Luther King Jr. sinning? I dont think so... He was letting grievances be known, that should have been known.

No one in this country thinks Martin Luther King Jr. should have "sat down and shut up" and been a "good Christian"...

You don't have to agree with someone's reasons for airing their grievances in this country, or even how they went about it, but those people, citizens, on January 6 were letting their grievances be known... that was them sharing their voice.

That they were treated as terrorists, beaten half to death in jail allowed no bail etc etc... is what is the shame.

I don't agree with what they did, they were out of hand... but that never deserved the label they were labeled with, or how they were treated any more than blacks during the civil rights movement deserved being beaten and jailed...
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Uh, most recent obvious example . 2016 popular vote. Donald Trump actually got 3 million less votes than Hillary Clinton and was only elected due to the dare I say fraud of the electoral college.
He had a majority of the electoral votes. Whether you find the electoral college to be fair or not is a different discussion, but the fact is that the majority of the votes of the electoral college is the winner of the election. Just as Hillary beat Bernie in the primary because the Democrats decided it is fair for Superdelegates to have votes worth more than regular delegates - kind of their own version of the electoral college.
 
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Ponderous Curmudgeon

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He had a majority of the electoral votes. Whether you find the electoral college to be fair or not is a different discussion, but the fact is that the majority of the votes of the electoral college is the winner of the election. Just as Hillary beat Bernie in the primary because the Democrats decided it is fair for Superdelegates to have votes worth more than regular delegates - kind of their own version of the electoral college.
It is a niggle relating to the statement you made that no-one won with a minority of votes. I am not arguing that he won, only that it is possible and that cases plural have occurred where the person has won with a minority of the popular vote in contradiction to your original statement.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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In America people have a voice in government making this a different kind of government than any known in Biblical times, and when they disagree with how the government is running things in their name they can present grievances, even protest government actions legally.
You are incorrect. Democracy was invented by the Ancient Greeks, during Biblical Times. The first Democracy was Athens. Plato, a Greek, wrote the book "The Republic". Athens was also a Republic and Rome was a Republic. I don't understand where you get the notion these things are new, much less not around in Biblical Times when in fact they were the major form of government for most of Biblical Times.

I do agree that people can protest in a Democracy or Republic, but again that's nothing new.

Was Martin Luther King Jr. sinning? I dont think so... He was letting grievances be known, that should have been known.

No one in this country thinks Martin Luther King Jr. should have "sat down and shut up" and been a "good Christian"...
Yes, especially back then and even people today do think he should have shut up and sat down. In fact, people today think that about a lot of black people or any people who simply say "black lives matter". There are entire threads on this very forum where people argue against the use of the term "black lives matter".

And why do you equate sitting down and shutting up with being a "good Christian"? Nobody else in this conversation has said such a thing, so why are you saying it? Is that what you think it means to be a "good Christian"? Because I disagree with that.

You don't have to agree with someone's reasons for airing their grievances in this country,
I agree

or even how they went about it,
I extremely strongly disagree. How they go about it is absolutely important. If someone airs a grievance, even one I disagree with, peacefully and non-violently then I support their right to do so. But if someone does it violently then I don't support their right to be violent.

For example, I support the Black Lives Matter movement. I support those protesters. But I don't support anyone who rioted against police or looted stores or engaged in any other violent unlawful behavior. If any BLM protesters did that, I don't support that. And if they were caught and sent to court and then to jail for committing violent, unlawful acts then I support them being treated that way - it's justice.

But if you really believe what you yourself just said about how you don't have to agree with people's grievances "even how they went about it" then does that mean that you support all the people at BLM protests, including people who were there that commited violence and looted? If you're consistent with what you're telling me then you would be supportive of that kind of airing of grievances.

but those people, citizens, on January 6 were letting their grievances be known... that was them sharing their voice.
So what? They did it violently and they rebelled against our God-ordained government violently. That is why they are being put in prison as they are being caught. They are getting what they deserve.

That they were treated as terrorists,
Those who act like terrorists shouldn't be surprised that they are treated as terrorists.

beaten half to death in jail allowed no bail etc etc... is what is the shame.
What in the world are you talking about? This sounds like a fable - it certainly isn't what happened to the Jan. 6 rioters, although if it did it still wouldn't be a shame.

I don't agree with what they did, they were out of hand... but that never deserved the label they were labeled with, or how they were treated any more than blacks during the civil rights movement deserved being beaten and jailed...
  1. Do you also believe that anyone who looted and commited violence during the BLM protests also never deserved the labels they were labled with or how they were trated???
  2. Are you seriously comparing the violent riot on Jan. 6 at the Capitol where they wanted to kill Nancy Pelosi and literally hang Mike Pence to the Civil Rights Movement under Martin Luther King which was non-violent and never attacked our government or government buildings or lawmakers, much less violently??? Seriously?? You don't see any difference at all??? Let me know, because if you don't, I'll be happy to outline it for you.
 
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Sparagmos

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As Jefferson said "a little rebellion now and then is good for America." Whether they were correct in their outrage, or not, the government should fear its people.
Like Antifa right?
 
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Fervent

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Like Antifa right?
If antifa was an actual revolutionary organization, sure. But they're nothing more than brownshirts for the democrats demanding more unilateral government. They target citizens and try to intimidate them from exercising their rights to express themselves, not government officials who have overstepped the authority of their office.
 
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Tom 1

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They went, but were not among the rioters. They did not riot. Only the rioters rioted. But because the narrative is that Trump caused this riot, all Trump supporters that were there are rioters. Yet Trump had nothing to do with the riot.

No, he did not incite the crowd to march down there and riot. As for whataboutism, the hypocrisy of left's demonizing whole segments of the population, by association, with the rioters, while ignoring or excusing or casting in a positive light —and even encouraging— earlier rioting in which much worse damage was done by the rioters, points to the left's interpretation of events Jan 6 as mere biased 'interpretation'. On top of that, there are claims that some of the rioters and specially some of the instigators were leftists, but that is still poo-pooed, or shouted down, or ignored; it is simply not interesting to those who have a narrative that needs to be preached.

Soros and his kind, if they don't believe in Christianity's afterlife, have a lot to answer for. I wouldn't want their 'Karma'.

No, it was planned before Trump had anything to say, nor did he instigate anything.



What's to know??? You don't remember???? You don't want to remember.

Who said it was ok to riot, or to do anything you claim happened there?

Do you really believe anything like this would have happened if Trump hadn’t been lying about election fraud for months? What would have been the basis for it without the election fraud lies?
 
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