locusts in the pit vs. satan in the pit--assuming Amil

DavidPT said:

This is why Amil makes no sense here. The attack on the camp of saints takes place on the earth, but in Revelation 20:4 Amil per their position has all those martyred saints residing in heaven as departed souls without bodies yet, thus zero connection to the assault on the camp of saints after the thousand years. Per Premil, at least Premil is not causing a total disconnect ofthe martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 with that of satan's little season. The camp of saints being attacked include the martyrs recorded in verse 4.

Click to expand...

After all these years you still do not understand Amil. No wonder you oppose it. It is not true Amil you are fighting, it is a misunderstanding in your own mind. You are shooting at a white elephant.

DavidPT said:

But why would this angel, if meaning a good angel, be depicted as falling to the earth, rather than simply coming down to the earth? Being depicted as falling from heaven implies something bad not something good, IMO. Every other time when a good angel is seen coming down to the earth from heaven in Revelation, it simply indicates the angel comes down. It never says the angel comes down by falling from heaven, meaning this in regards to good angels coming down.

You often raise a point about one not being objective. Are you being objective here?

Click to expand...

I already explained this. My unaddressed post ably rebuts your claims.

DavidPT said:

I understand Amil. Per Amil there is still a camp of saints on earth, so I'm saying there isn't, but that's not the point I was trying to make. In Revelation 20:4 there is not a mixture of those still alive back on earth and those that have been martyred. That verse only records those that have been martyred, which means per Amil, satan's little season is meaningless to them since it couldn't possibly involve them if the assault on the camp of saints takes place on the earth but that they are in heaven at the time, thus zero connection of those recorded in verse 4 with that of what is recorded in verse 7-9. Premil doesn't have this problem. Premil has the ones recorded in verse 4 bodily rising at the beginning of the thousand years, thus they play a role in what happens during verses 7-9.

Click to expand...

When you have no rebuttal, you tend to misrepresent Amil. No one respects that. And, yes, also: please do not talk on behalf of Amils. We can do that ably ourselves.

sovereigngrace said:

1. You need to grasp the symbolism. The abyss is a spiritual prison for spiritual beings. This is not a physical geographical place. It is a spiritual state.

Click to expand...

Exactly right. Even Christ while dead was said to be in the "Abyss" (abysson) in Romans 10:7. So the abyss would seem to be a CONDITION, and not a PLACE. Or rather, I should say a NON-FUNCTIONING CONDITION for Christ's body to be in while dead for 3 days and 3 nights.

However, there is no real indication in Revelation 9 that the "locusts" came up out of this "abyss" condition. SMOKE came out of the abyss into the air (Satan's realm as the "prince of the power of the air"), and then locusts ON THE EARTH came OUT of that SMOKE. This "earth" term, again, is "tes ges", meant the LAND of Israel. This was not a prophecy that would torment all men on the entire globe during this five months. Only those in "the earth", or land of Israel, who did not have Christ's mark on their heads at that particular time.

I don't deny that the demonic was at work behind the scenes of this plague, but they worked THROUGH human agencies during that five months, in order to torment those not belonging to Christ. This was part of the "Days of Vengeance" on those disobedient Jews whose generation had just rejected their Messiah. The "locusts" with "hair like women" and "crowns like gold" were the Roman troops in Judea with their distinctive Gallic G helmets having horsehair crests and brass trim, who were tormenting the Jews from May until September in AD 66 into the inevitable rebellion against Rome.

That "fallen star" called "Wormwood" was one particular man - Simon Magus found in Acts 8:9-24 - who had been a sorcerer of great renown among the Samarians, who had once called Simon "the great power of God". Simon was responsible for corrupting the early church by launching the cult which became known as the sensuous "doctrine of Balaam". Eusebius records the first-century track record of Simon's activities, and actually blamed him for all the false doctrine in the early church. (A bit of exaggeration, but not much).

Simon Peter had foretold in Acts 8:23 that Simon Magus would become a "Gall of bitterness" for the church (like the bitter herb Wormwood). Simon Magus had once coveted Simon Peter's "keys to the kingdom" powers, and wished to buy that power from Peter. Failing in that, in a twisted parody of this, Simon the sorcerer's connections with the demonic and false doctrine gave him the "keys" to the abyss, and he became the one responsible for releasing a cloud of demonic deception in Israel in those days.

DavidPT said:

Let's assume you are correct here, explain per the following why these feared going into the deep(abyss) to be tormented before the time? In what way might a spiritual prison cause torment for them?

Matthew 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Luke 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep(abussos).

Explain the symbolism in Luke 8:31 involving the deep. Explain the symbolism in Matthew 8:29 involving the torment.

Click to expand...

Luke 8:31 refers to the abusso the place of special spiritual restraint, which at this stage was not legally secured through Christ’s death on the cross. Legion was therefore cast, at this juncture, into the swine. Significantly, there is no record that the fallen angels wherever placed there before Calvary. In the narrative, the devils were simply in awful and definite fear of being cast into the abyss. The ‘abussos’ was therefore not the usual accepted habitation of fallen angels at this time before the cross.

They feared going there before their time. This is seen in Matthew 8:29, where the devils cried before going into the pigs: “What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?”

They obviously knew that their imprisonment was inevitability and even impending because the very sight of Christ provoked fear and trepidation.

This dreaded “time” spoken of here – namely Christ’s death, burial and resurrection – had not yet come, but was quickly approaching. Calvary would place chains upon the kingdom of darkness that would curtail their movement / influence among the Gentiles up until near the end.

DavidPT said:

Let's assume you are correct here, explain per the following why these feared going into the deep(abyss) to be tormented before the time? In what way might a spiritual prison cause torment for them?

Matthew 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Luke 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep(abussos).

Explain the symbolism in Luke 8:31 involving the deep. Explain the symbolism in Matthew 8:29 involving the torment.



I see no reason to dispute that.



I see no reason to dispute that.



I see no reason to dispute that.



Since we have already had this discussion in this thread, I see no need for me to comment on it again here. We will just leave it at that for now.



I can see the logic in this, I can at least admit that. But there are other things that have to be factored in as well before one can conclude without question that these are the correct conclusions to arrive at.





Per Amil that would be meaning when satan goes out to deceive the nations. How can he possibly hope to deceive any nations if those he is hoping to deceive are instead being tormented and destroyed by demons, the same demons that join satan in the LOF in the end? I just don't see that making much sense.

Click to expand...

The fate of Satan and the beast are inextricably linked together. So if the beast is currently in the bottomless pit (before the second coming) and will be released at the end for a season of damage, then we should also likewise imagine Satan will also.

Just before the second coming, Satan gets a little season to wreak havoc on the Church. When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season. Then comes the end! But Christ comes in majestic and eternal glory to overthrow the kingdom of darkness forever. The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic second coming (Isaiah 26:19-27:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10).

DavidPT said:

Why is it, assuming Amil, when the locusts are in the pit(Revelation 9), it is as if they don't even exist at the time, and that they are 100% prevented from having any interaction with the outside world altogether?

Click to expand...

Where did you get the idea that Amil believes that? That isn't the case. We believe the locusts symbolize fallen angels/demons and our understanding of them being in the pit is no different than our understanding of Satan being in the pit.

I apologize if I'm repeating anything that's already been said, but I just started looking at this thread and haven't read all the responses yet.

But when satan is in this same pit, still assuming Amil, the same is not true about satan. There is something wrong with that picture.

Click to expand...

Yeah, what's wrong is that you somehow weren't aware of our understanding of Revelation 9 even though we've discussed that with you several times before.

The pit can prevent all interactions with the outside world altogether, in the locust's case, but not in satan's case.

Click to expand...

Who said that exactly? I'd love to know where you got the idea from that Amils interpret Revelation 9 that way. Definitely not from me, sovereigngrace or jeffweedaman.

Let's look at Revelation 9. BTW, it doesn't matter what these locusts are or are not, that's not the point. The point has to do with comparing their imprisonment in the pit with that of satan's imprisonment in the pit, and how Amil has satan's imprisonment in the pit as pointless and non effective even though the imprisonment in this same pit seems rather effective in the locust's case.

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Are any Amils going to argue that before the pit is opened, these locusts seen coming out have been interacting with the outside world while locked up in the pit?

Click to expand...

Of course we do. Again, our understanding of them being in the pit is the same as our understanding of Satan being in the pit. Please tell me I don't have to explain our understanding of Satan being in the pit to you again for the thousandth (but not literally the thousandth) time.

If any Amils do argue that, they then have to show in what way these particular locusts have been interacting with the outside world while imprisoned in the pit.

Click to expand...

"If any Amils do argue that". None do. So, where did you even get this idea from?

DavidPT said:

This is why Amil makes no sense here. The attack on the camp of saints takes place on the earth, but in Revelation 20:4 Amil per their position has all those martyred saints residing in heaven as departed souls without bodies yet, thus zero connection to the assault on the camp of saints after the thousand years.

Click to expand...

So? I'm not seeing the problem here.

Per Premil, at least Premil is not causing a total disconnect ofthe martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 with that of satan's little season. The camp of saints being attacked include the martyrs recorded in verse 4.

Click to expand...

So, you're telling us that you think people with IMMORTAL bodies are going to be attacked as if they can somehow be killed despite having IMMORTAL bodies? You talk about not making sense. Wow.

DavidPT said:

I read the entire post , it was not that lengthy. I simply disagree that satan is meant by the king of the pit.

Click to expand...

Do you disagree that the locusts symbolically represent fallen angels? If not, then who does scripture say is their leader?

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

But let's assume he is. The text never indicates one way or the other that the king of the pit is in pit when the locusts are.

Click to expand...

Why would they be away from their king? What kind of king ignores his people (or angels in this case)? Also, why would he be called "the angel of the bottomless pit" if he wasn't even in the bottomless pit?

Maybe he is maybe he isn't. And another reason satan being the king of the pit makes no sense to me is because the locusts are let out of the pit, not to torment saints, which is something satan would likely prefer, but are let out in order to torment the lost. Sounds like the locusts are doing God's will not satan's will instead.

Click to expand...

Yes, they are doing God's will whether they realize it or not. The purpose of it is to get those people to repent, but when you continue reading through Revelation 9 you can see that they refuse to do so.

But, it's not surprising that Satan would take advantage of such a situation. It makes sense to me that Satan would take advantage of people becoming bitter towards God and angry at Christ and His people so that he can then unite them against Jesus and His church. So, it makes sense that they become more and more bitter as time goes on to the point where they would like to destroy the church because they hate the gospel and the people who preach it. They badly want to do their own thing no matter what, so they don't want to hear anything about the need to repent of their sins.

It's not too hard for Satan to get people like that to actively oppose Christ and His church, which is what I believe Revelation 20:7-9 is describing in a symbolic way. It's not talking about people who number "as the sand of the sea" from around the world literally all somehow traveling to one location (imagine the logistics of that) to destroy "the camp of the saints". It's a symbolic representation of people around the world being persuaded to actively oppose the global church.

sovereigngrace said:

The question is: is it a fallen angel or is it an elect angel? This word pipto (Strong’s 4098) interpreted “fall” carries the idea of alighting or descending. It is derived from the Greek word petomai (Strong’s 4072) meaning ‘to fly’. This would certainly support the idea that we are looking at an angel. The Greek word pipto itself carries several meanings; the first of which we encounter is ‘to descend from a higher place to a lower’. All these interpretations are consistent with the picture of an angel descending from heaven to earth.

Revelation 9 proves that the abyss is the invisible spiritual restrained domain where demons operate now upon "earth."

Let us first establish that John is actually looking at "a star" in Revelation 9:1. That is what he identifies. He is seeing a symbolic vision. Whilst it is likely the star represents an angel the vision relates to an actual star. Because a star is inanimate, it is described as falling. Basically stars “fall” (Revelation 8.10; 9.1). Good angels on the other hand are said to “come down” (Revelation 10.1; 20.1). Whilst the same picture is been painted in both, one relates to a symbol (representing an angel) the other to a literal angel.

It is worth noting, Revelation 8:10-11 uses similar language to Revelation 9:1, saying, “there pipto (or) fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.”

This star/angel that descended from heaven seemed to be on a heavenly assignment to open-up the bottomless pit before the second coming. It would clearly be wrong to view this as a demonic being.

Click to expand...

Agree. It makes no sense at all that a fallen angel/demon would be given the key to the bottomless pit. God is the One who decides who goes there or not so why would He give the key to a fallen angel/demon? That just makes no sense. It has to be an angel of God who would be given the key to the bottomless pit because it can only be God's decision to have the pit be opened.

DavidPT said:

Who is even arguing that no one is presently in the pit? It is clear that these locusts are in the pit, and it is clear that the beast is in the pit at the time of John receiving the visions he did at the time. What is not clear is that satan is also already in the pit.

Click to expand...

Please think about this. The locusts represent fallen angels/demons. If they are all in the pit and the beast is in the pit, and if being in the pit means they are not able to do anything as you believe, what effect do you think that has on Satan? None? If so, wouldn't that mean you think Satan can do everything he normally does even without his fallen angels and without the beast? If that was the case then what is the reason those angels and the beast are in the pit?

These locusts tend to prove otherwise. While they are in the pit it doesn't seem like they are able to do what satan can do while in the pit though, this assuming Amil. Why is it that the pit is able to 100% prevent the locusts from doing anything whatsoever when they are imprisoned there, but the same is not true when satan is imprisoned there, this again assuming Amil?

Click to expand...

That isn't what Amils believe. We believe them being in the pit has the same effect as it does on Satan and we don't take them being in the pit in a literal way as premils do. Which Amil ever said that the locusts/demons being in the pit means they can't do anything? I am very interested to find out where you got that idea from.

DavidPT said:

But why would this angel, if meaning a good angel, be depicted as falling to the earth, rather than simply coming down to the earth? Being depicted as falling from heaven implies something bad not something good, IMO. Every other time when a good angel is seen coming down to the earth from heaven in Revelation, it simply indicates the angel comes down. It never says the angel comes down by falling from heaven, meaning this in regards to good angels coming down.

You often raise a point about one not being objective. Are you being objective here?

Click to expand...

There are no bad angels in heaven. Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven long ago. Satan used to accuse believers in heaven before God, but he was no longer able to do that after Christ's death and resurrection. Paul asked in Romans 8:33 who can make any charge/accusation against God's elect? The answer is no one, including Satan. So, keeping in mind that Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven long ago, how could Revelation 9 possibly be talking about a bad angel falling from heaven? That would not make sense. So, it has to referring to a good angel descending from heaven.

DavidPT said:

You and any other Amils agreeing with you here about that are simply not grasping some of my arguments. I tend to think outside of the box a lot, not that others don't as well, so, you're just not grasping what I'm meaning a good portion of the time. It's not that I don't understand Amil, it's that some of these things I bring up don't support Amil, but support another position instead. Such as, per Amil those recorded in Revelation 20:4 have zero to do with satan's little season after the thousand years. Why is that? Per Amil why isn't there anyone recorded in Revelation 20:4 that does have an involvement with satan's little season? What is the point in mentioning martyrs in verse 4 if they have no connection with the events recorded in verses 7-9 whatsoever? Why didn't John at least record in that verse someone who would?

Click to expand...

If the fall was the greatest tragedy that hit mankind, the cross was the biggest blessing. It confronted everything that was arrayed against us.

Justice demanded:

· Christ had to defeat sin – the source of man’s enslavement.
· He had to defeat Satan the instrument used to tempt man to sin.
· He had to defeat death (or the grave) the penalty of sin.
· He had to defeat Hades (or Abraham’s bosom) the prison of the righteous dead.
· He had to defeat eternal punishment – the just reward for unrepentant sinners.

This meant that none of these had any power over God’s people.

Something happened 2000 years ago that you seem to be ignorant of: Jesus defeated sin, death, Hades and Satan. Hell had no more hold upon the redeemed. Revelation 20 shows the dead in Christ now populating heaven instead of Hades. Hades (Abraham's bosom) has been emptied of God’s elect since Christ conquered it. The dead were raised from Hades in spirit and are now reigning with Jesus. But the physical resurrection does not occur until Jesus comes to raise the living and the dead at His one final future climactic coming.

Jesus was the first to defeat sin, death, the grave and Hades. He is the first resurrection. After His glorious resurrection, He testified in Revelation 1:18: "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

Death and Hades are now defeated. The grave has been conquered. God's people who die go now to be with Jesus.

Before the resurrection the redeemed dead were forced to stay in Hades awaiting the defeat of sin, death, Hades and Satan. The limitations that once held God's people from the presence of God now restrain Satan so that he cannot stop the enlightenment of the nations. Jesus opened heaven up to the elect (both living and dead) When he defeated sin, death, Satan and Hades. He consequently emptied Abraham's bosom and took the dead in Christ in heaven.

So, it was only after the first resurrection (when sin, death, Satan and hell were defeated) and the consequential binding of Satan that the dead in Christ could be released to enter the presence of the Lord in heaven. Christ emptied Hades and led captivity captive taking them to heaven to reign with Him until the physical resurrection at His coming. That is because the penalty for their sin has been paid in full. Justice has been met by the sinless life of Christ, His atoning death on our behalf and His victorious resurrection. The punishment is complete.

The dead in Christ are in glory today. They are reigning with Christ. Upon death, they go immediately into the presence of God to rule with him. So, those in Revelation who are reigning in Revelation 20 do so because Jesus defeated the grave and opened Hades 2000 years ago and led the redeemed dead into glory. They now reign with Him since the first resurrection. Revelation 20 is ongoing and will finish at the coming of Christ which sees the general resurrection, judgment and the regeneration of this current world.

DavidPT said:

Do these locusts prove that this pit is a real place, a real place that can imprison spirit beings? I would think so, otherwise how does one explain, that while the locusts are in the pit, it is as if they don't even exist at the time? The same should be true when satan is in the pit as well. Per Premil the same would be true. Why isn't the same also true per Amil?

Click to expand...

Time out...

First, tell me what are those Locusts? Who are they in God's eyes? What did locusts do in Egypt back in Exodus and what SPIRITUAL SIGNIFICATION of this in related to the Locusts in the Book of Revelation?

Do some study first before you assume too much! Hint: they are not literal locusts. There is not a literal place that holds spirits. They are commanded by God not to hurt those men WITHOUT the seal of God. Why?

I like to see you show me the explanation WITH YOUR HANDLING OF SCRIPTURE YOURSELF rather than parrotting what your favorite premillennial author or youtube.