The mystery of God in Eschatology

Douggg

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In eschatology, the issue is God's three point plan - the mystery of God who He has declared to His servants the prophets.

1. does God have a plan to bring Israel, the Jews, corporately speaking, to salvation in Jesus?

2. does God have a plan to end the sordid state of existence man has been in ever since the garden of eden; and replace it with man being in an idyllic existence in the everlasting Kingdom of God?

3. does God have a plan to destroy Satan and his angels, and their kingdom, forever?

Yes, to all of the above.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

None of the seven angels have sounded yet.
 

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In eschatology, the issue is God's three point plan - the mystery of God who He has declared to His servants the prophets.

1. does God have a plan to bring Israel, the Jews, corporately speaking, to salvation in Jesus?

2. does God have a plan to end the sordid state of existence man has been in ever since the garden of eden; and replace it with man being in an idyllic existence in the everlasting Kingdom of God?

3. does God have a plan to destroy Satan and his angels, and their kingdom, forever?

Yes, to all of the above.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

None of the seven angels have sounded yet.

And the seals?
 
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The rider on the white horse in first seal is the Antichrist

The rider on the white horse is Christ, with His gospel going forth from the early church, both conquering, and to conquer. In Him "...we are MORE THAN CONQUERORS, through Him that loved us." (Romans 8:37). The victory of Christ on the white horse, exercising vengeance over His enemies who would not have Him to rule over them, is revealed in Revelation 19:11.

The seal, trumpets, and vials have already been poured on on that first-century generation, because John included all of those within the list of what was "AT HAND". (Rev. 1:3 and Rev. 22:10). The lone exception is found in Revelation 10:4.
 
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sovereigngrace

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In eschatology, the issue is God's three point plan - the mystery of God who He has declared to His servants the prophets.

1. does God have a plan to bring Israel, the Jews, corporately speaking, to salvation in Jesus?

2. does God have a plan to end the sordid state of existence man has been in ever since the garden of eden; and replace it with man being in an idyllic existence in the everlasting Kingdom of God?

3. does God have a plan to destroy Satan and his angels, and their kingdom, forever?

Yes, to all of the above.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

None of the seven angels have sounded yet.

Revelation was not intended to introduce a large deposit of new revelation that was previously unknown to the other sacred writers. Many (wrongly) formulate new elaborate innovative Bible doctrines out of the apocalyptic symbols that were simply designed to express general spiritual truths, in keeping with the rest of Scripture. End-time enthusiasts often arbitrarily use parables, visions, dreams, and symbols to conveniently design their own theology, theories and prophetic schemes. This distorts what was intended to be an unveiling of truth and confuses those who they speak to.

As you dive into the book of Revelation it is important to recognize that it is not chronological. It is a series of recaps. It presents different camera views of the same game (mainly, the period between Christ's First Advent and His Second Advent). Sometimes when one is watching a sports game, the camera is close in on the action, sometimes it presents a broad panoramic view of the game. Sometimes it is focused on the coaches, sometimes it is focused on the players, other times, it is focused on the fans. The book Revelation is a bit like that. Sinclair Ferguson describes the apocalypse as: “Recapitulatory and progressive parallelism.”

What we are looking at is a spiritual revelation of our Savior revealed to us in symbolic form. We get a general overview of the story. We then have an expansion of particular aspects of that story. Scripture often does that.

Revelation 1-22 consists of a number of figurative prophetic parallels (most believe seven in total) revealing the overall battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. They relate, like every other New Testament book, to the period running between the first and Second Advents. John basically goes behind the scenes into the spiritual realm and articulates in symbolic form the enormity of the great conflict between light and darkness. In the book of Revelation, we get a perceptive insight into the invisible realm.

Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period which look at different aspects of the great battle between darkness and light. Basically, it is telling the same story from different angles.

The ESV Study Bible states: “Revelation unveils the unseen spiritual war in which the church is engaged: the cosmic conflict between God and his Christ on the one hand, and Satan and his evil allies (both demonic and human) on the other. In this conflict, Jesus the Lamb has already won the decisive victory through his sacrificial death, but his church continues to be assaulted by the dragon, in its death-throes, through persecution, false teaching, and the allure of material affluence and cultural approval. By revealing the spiritual realities lying behind the church’s trials and temptations during the time between Christ’s first and second comings, and by dramatically affirming the certainty of Christ’s triumph in the new heaven and earth, the visions granted to John both warn the church and fortify it to endure suffering and to stay pure from the defiling enticements of the present world order.”

Revelation is designed to enlighten God’s people, stir their hearts and increase their faith. Significantly, the conclusion of each parallel terminates with a record of the glorious Second Advent, which includes the rescue of His saint and the final destruction of the wicked.

Those who have eyes to see will get the general thrust of the book! That does not mean we will grasp every minute detail. But we should get the overall message of the apocalypse.

Cycle 1

Seven Churches (Ch 2-3)

Cycle 2

Seven Seals (Ch 6-8:1)

Cycle 3

Seven Trumpets (Ch 8-11)

Cycle 4

The Church and its onslaught from the devil and the beast’s and ultimate victory in heaven.

Cycle 5

Seven Vials (Ch 15-16)

Cycle 6


Babylon (Ch 17-19)

Cycle 7

Revelation was not intended to introduce a large deposit of new revelation that was previously unknown to the other sacred writers. Many (wrongly) formulate new elaborate innovative Bible doctrines out of the apocalyptic symbols that were simply designed to express general spiritual truths, in keeping with the rest of Scripture. End-time enthusiasts often arbitrarily use parables, visions, dreams, and symbols to conveniently design their own theology, theories and prophetic schemes. This distorts what was intended to be an unveiling of truth and confuses those who they speak to.
 
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The Mystery of God, Revelation 10:7, is defined in the next chapter:

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The Kingdoms of this world are become of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

Declared by prophets:

Psalms 2:6-9, Psalms 45:6-8, Psalms 145:13, Isaiah 9:6-7, etc. ad inifinitum.

And here: as The Kingdom Of Heaven:

Matthew 3:2 Matthew 4:17 Matthew 5:3 Matthew 5:10 Matthew 5:19 Matthew 5:20 Matthew 7:21 Matthew 8:11 Matthew 10:7 Matthew 11:11 Matthew 11:12 Matthew 13:11 Matthew 13:24 Matthew 13:31 Matthew 13:33 Matthew 13:44 Matthew 13:45 Matthew 13:47 Matthew 13:52 Matthew 16:19 Matthew 18:1 Matthew 18:3 Matthew 18:4 Matthew 18:23 Matthew 19:12 Matthew 19:14 Matthew 19:23 Matthew 20:1 Matthew 22:2 Matthew 23:13 Matthew 25:1 Matthew 25:14

The Kingdom of God is the same thing:
Matthew 6:33 Matthew 12:28 Matthew 19:24 Matthew 21:31 Matthew 21:43 John 3:3 John 3:5

The Gospel of the Kingdom is the same thing:
Matthew 4:23 Matthew 9:35 Matthew 11:5 Matthew 24:14 Matthew 26:13

1 Peter 4:17-18 calls it The Gospel of God, which it is, John 12:48-50.
And because Jesus spoke the words of the Father to the Discipled-Apostles, according to John 12:44-47... we literally believe in the Father through the witness of His Son:

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

John 18:37 To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world: that I should bear witness unto the truth; every one that is of the truth heareth My voice. John 17:17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.

Revelation 12:10-11 And I heard a loud voice saying in Heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the Kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their Testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's Kingdom.
 
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Douggg

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The Mystery of God, Revelation 10:7, is defined in the next chapter:

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The Kingdoms of this world are become of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
"are become". The process begins of taking the kingdoms of this world out from under the kingdom of Satan and his angels.

The first step is the war in the second heaven, in Revelation 12:7-9. Which Satan finds himself with only a time/times/half times left of himself and his kingdom, Babylon the Great.

In Revelation 12:10, the Israel, the Jews turn to Jesus after their big mistake of thinking the Antichrist was the messiah, for most of the first half of the seven years.
 
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Ligurian

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"are become". The process begins of taking the kingdoms of this world out from under the kingdom of Satan and his angels.

The first step is the war in the second heaven, in Revelation 12:7-9. Which Satan finds himself with only a time/times/half times left of himself and his kingdom, Babylon the Great.

In Revelation 12:10, the Israel, the Jews turn to Jesus after their big mistake of thinking the Antichrist was the messiah, for most of the first half of the seven years.

Because the devil is obviously the little horn. So, he comes to Earth, confirms the covenant with many... he was wounded in his battle with Michael, and is worshipped because he's seen as their real messiah... reborn? Babylon is the woman who rules the Earth... you see that as his kingdom... hmmm... possible. But then the 10 kingdoms will give him their power at half-time and destroy the woman Babylon... ? Israelites will flee from Babylon into the mountains which will be split in half when the earth opens her mouth and swallows the flood... of men? of locusts?
 
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In eschatology, the issue is God's three point plan - the mystery of God who He has declared to His servants the prophets.

1. does God have a plan to bring Israel, the Jews, corporately speaking, to salvation in Jesus?
No. He has a plan to give all people, including all Jews, the opportunity to be saved because He wants all people to repent (Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4-6). Do you not think that God wants all people to repent and to be saved? Do you think He is withholding salvation from anyone?

Do you think God is a respecter of persons (is partial) which would mean He shows favoritism to people because of their ethnicity or nationality? If you believe He will corporately save Israel while not doing so for any other nation then that means you believe He is a respecter of persons. But, scripture says He is not.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

2. does God have a plan to end the sordid state of existence man has been in ever since the garden of eden; and replace it with man being in an idyllic existence in the everlasting Kingdom of God?
Yes, He does. I look forward to that day when "there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain" (Rev 21:4).

3. does God have a plan to destroy Satan and his angels, and their kingdom, forever?
Yes.

Yes, to all of the above.
Except #1.

And how do you know that?
 
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Oh, that's right. You read all of the highly symbolic book of Revelation literally. Do you really think that blood will literally be mixed with hail and fire and come down from heaven? Where will the blood come from and why will it be mixed with the hail and fire?

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This passage is in regards to what was happening on the day of Pentecost long ago and Peter quoted Joel 2:28-32 in direct relation to what was happening there. Joel prophesied that God would pour out His Spirit upon His people and that is exactly what started happening beginning on the day of Pentecost back then. Was there literal "blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke" coming onto the earth at that time? No. So, that type of language is clearly used figuratively in scripture. It makes no sense to think that literal blood would be literally mixed with fire and hail in heaven and then sent down upon the earth. Revelation 8:7 is a symbolic representation of major spiritual events occurring on the earth using physical imagery just like in Joel 2:28-32.
 
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Douggg

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Oh, that's right. You read all of the highly symbolic book of Revelation literally. Do you really think that blood will literally be mixed with hail and fire and come down from heaven? Where will the blood come from and why will it be mixed with the hail and fire?

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This passage is in regards to what was happening on the day of Pentecost long ago and Peter quoted Joel 2:28-32 in direct relation to what was happening there. Joel prophesied that God would pour out His Spirit upon His people and that is exactly what started happening beginning on the day of Pentecost back then. Was there literal "blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke" coming onto the earth at that time? No. So, that type of language is clearly used figuratively in scripture. It makes no sense to think that literal blood would be literally mixed with fire and hail in heaven and then sent down upon the earth. Revelation 8:7 is a symbolic representation of major spiritual events occurring on the earth using physical imagery just like in Joel 2:28-32.
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Has not happen yet.
 
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Yeah, I already get that you take everything written in a highly symbolic book literally. Thanks.

I noticed that you made no attempt to explain the purpose of mixing blood with fire and hail. Can you tell me what purpose that would serve if that's literally going to happen?
 
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Douggg

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Oh, that's right. You read all of the highly symbolic book of Revelation literally. Do you really think that blood will literally be mixed with hail and fire and come down from heaven? Where will the blood come from and why will it be mixed with the hail and fire?
Why spend a lot of time on the parts of the verse that that can be not be readily understood, when the parts about 1/3 of the trees are burnt up, and all the green grass - are plenty straightforward enough to know that the first trumpet event hasn't happened yet.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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The rider on the white horse is Christ, with His gospel going forth from the early church, both conquering, and to conquer. In Him "...we are MORE THAN CONQUERORS, through Him that loved us." (Romans 8:37). The victory of Christ on the white horse, exercising vengeance over His enemies who would not have Him to rule over them, is revealed in Revelation 19:11.

The seal, trumpets, and vials have already been poured on on that first-century generation, because John included all of those within the list of what was "AT HAND". (Rev. 1:3 and Rev. 22:10). The lone exception is found in Revelation 10:4.
Hi the rider on the white horse comes conquering to conquer and by chapter 13 we see the antichrist has dominnon over every tribe tongue kindred and nation for exactly 42 months. Now in Rev 6 when the rider shows up immediately peace is taken from earth and it becomes a days wage for a quart of wheat. Now also a great persecution comes and the souls are crying out how long LORD and the LORD tells them to wait until the full number of those beheaded would be accomplished. Now at the end of the 42 months the beast has the LORD comes and is king over all the earth.

if you isolate that verse about the white horse your idea is possible but if you look a the context within the chapter and the whole of the book of Rev it is easy to see that it is antichrist coming 1st.
 
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by chapter 13 we see the antichrist has dominnon over every tribe tongue kindred and nation for exactly 42 months.

Errrr, not exactly the right wording there. The Antichrist is nowhere mentioned in that context. Just the "mouth" of the Sea Beast having that dominion. And his world power "dominion" was NOT limited to a mere 42 months. It was given to him to "MAKE WAR" on the saints for a 42 month period of his dominion, and to "overcome them". So, part of the time period this Sea Beast was in power over the known world was taken up with a concentrated effort to "MAKE WAR" on the saints for 42 months, and to overcome them by killing them. Which Nero did for a literal 42 months after the AD 64 fire at Rome, which ended up being blamed on the Christians.
 
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Douggg

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Errrr, not exactly the right wording there. The Antichrist is nowhere mentioned in that context. Just the "mouth" of the Sea Beast having that dominion. And his world power "dominion" was NOT limited to a mere 42 months. It was given to him to "MAKE WAR" on the saints for a 42 month period of his dominion, and to "overcome them". So, part of the time period this Sea Beast was in power over the known world was taken up with a concentrated effort to "MAKE WAR" on the saints for 42 months, and to overcome them by killing them. Which Nero did for a literal 42 months after the AD 64 fire at Rome, which ended up being blamed on the Christians.
There was no false prophet at the time of Nero to have the world to make the image of the beast. And it come alive and speak. Nero also did not convince the kings of the earth to gather their armies at Armageddon to make war on Jesus. And Jesus did not return in Nero's day to cast him into the lake of fire.

Everything from Revelation 6 to Revelation 13 is about is the 7 year 70thweek leading up to Jesus's return.
 
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And Jesus did not return in Nero's day to cast him into the lake of fire

Of course not. I agree. Nero was connected with the Rev. 13 SEA BEAST as the then-current leader of that 666-year old Sea Beast. Nero was NOT the Rev. 17 SCARLET BEAST with its Judean characteristics, which WAS thrown alive into the Lake of Fire in Jerusalem during those AD 66-70 tormenting conditions. Two different Beasts altogether with different biographies. Don't confuse the two.

Nero also did not convince the kings of the earth to gather their armies at Armageddon to make war on Jesus.

Of course not. I agree. That is speaking of someone else. Nero was already dead in AD 69 by the time the Sea Beast under the leadership of emperor Vespasian began to assemble the Roman troops together at the "Har Megiddo" (Armageddon) location, a few miles from the coast of Caesarea. This was the staging area from which the Romans began executing the war against the Jews. Vespasian's army had the collaborating help of various vassal kings from among some of the surrounding nations.

In addition to the Roman troops of the Sea Beast landing at the base of operations in Caesarea near Megiddo in collaboration with the "kings of the whole habitable world", the Scarlet Beast and the False Prophet Land Beast were also gathering the "kings of the earth" (the high priests) to make war against the Lamb. The Judean Scarlet Beast also had a staging area for their armed forces which came out of Galilee, the Zealot's home turf. This was also just a few miles away from the "Har Meggido" location. The main leader of the Zealot cause, Simon bar Gioras, used the city of Nain on the other side of Megiddo for stashing stolen supplies to outfit his army.

The Scarlet Beast and the Land Beast (both Judean in character) were together thrown alive into Jerusalem's Lake of Fire, where they preyed upon one another during those AD 66-70 years. This was the fulfillment of the "ten horns" on the Scarlet Beast who made war with the Lamb and who also "hated the harlot" that sat upon them. In the civil war that ensued during those years, those 10 horns (ten generals chosen to lead the war) ended up "making her desolate and naked", "eating her flesh" and "burning her with fire" in their "brother against brother" conflict.

The Roman Sea Beast was the agency by which God finally torched what remained of the city and tore its buildings down to the last stone, as predicted. In the parable, Jesus said the king would use "HIS army" to "burn up their city" of the murderers and rebels.

Everything from Revelation 6 to Revelation 13 is about is the 7 year 70thweek leading up to Jesus's return.

Can't quite agree with you here. It's true that those texts lead up to Jesus's return, but it is not timed in sync with the 70th week. You evidently believe in the "gap theory" for the 70 weeks prophecy. I do not. A prophetic "yardstick" broken in two pieces is not a yardstick at all that can be trusted to measure anything. I know exactly what year that last, 70th week expired long ago (AD 37), but that is a subject for another post's discussion.

There was no false prophet at the time of Nero to have the world to make the image of the beast. And it come alive and speak.

This is symbolic language of an image "speaking". It does not mean literal words were spoken by an inanimate object. The same imagery is used about the blood of Abel, which God said was "crying unto Me from the ground"; who even while being dead, "yet speaketh" in Hebrews 11:4. Or the "voice" of the natural world being "heard" as a witness to God's power. "There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard..." And "wisdom" uttering her voice, etc.... It's called "personification" as a writing technique.

The "False Prophet" / aka the "Land Beast" was the deceptive religious leadership in Israel, with its two-horned Pharisee/ Sadducee members. Christ called them liars when He was berating them in John 8:55. They "spoke like a dragon" because Satan the Dragon was the Father of lies, and they practiced deception just like their Father the devil (John 8:44).

Acting under Rome's sanction and authority, this "Land Beast" of religious leadership in Israel had convinced the people to start minting look-alike Tyrian shekel coins with the same abominable images and inscriptions on them - a clear violation of Mosaic law. The mint was in Jerusalem, which started making those abominable images on the coins in 19 BC, (probably to help fund Herod's massive Temple renovations which began that year). These coins with their abominable images were REQUIRED currency for anyone selling or purchasing Temple sacrificial items, and came with an onerous (and extremely lucrative) surcharge fee for exchanging other foreign currency for this approved Tyrian shekel coin.

So yes, this Tyrian shekel requirement for Temple transactions was in place from 19 BC until AD 66, when the Zealots began minting their own currency instead. Nero's regnal period overlapped the time when this Tyrian shekel was still being required.
 
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Douggg

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In addition to the Roman troops of the Sea Beast landing at the base of operations in Caesarea near Megiddo in collaboration with the "kings of the whole habitable world", the Scarlet Beast and the False Prophet Land Beast were also gathering the "kings of the earth" (the high priests) to make war against the Lamb. The Judean Scarlet Beast also had a staging area for their armed forces which came out of Galilee, the Zealot's home turf. This was also just a few miles away from the "Har Meggido" location. The main leader of the Zealot cause, Simon bar Gioras, used the city of Nain on the other side of Megiddo for stashing stolen supplies to outfit his army.
The Romans and Zealot were fighting each other, not against Jesus. The kings of the earth will gather their armies to make war on Jesus, not each other.
 
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The kings of the earth will gather their armies to make war on Jesus, not each other.

The "kings of the earth" as high priests certainly DID make war on Jesus in their time. The entire family of Annas conspired to achieve His death. All the enumerated kindred of the high priest were there in Acts 4:5-6, threatening the disciples not to teach in the name of Jesus. They CONTINUED to make war against Jesus by persecuting His church through the book of Acts.

As for the Zealots, their whole purpose for existence was to provide a military leader type of Messiah substitute, instead of recognizing Jesus as being the True Messiah. The Zealot factions battling with each other for that supreme Messiah role were under "great delusion" that Daniel's prophesied Messiah was going to be a military leader who would deliver them from Rome's control. That was never Christ's mission. His kingdom was of another kind altogether, which the Zealots rejected. So they were also aligned against the Lamb in their purpose.

Even though the Judean Land Beast and the Judean Scarlet Beast BOTH rejected Jesus and made war on Him and/or His followers for differing reasons, that did not keep them from battling each other also. It's why we are shown the 10 horns hating the "harlot" so much, because Jerusalem's religious leadership aligned with the Romans had kept the Scarlet Beast's independent kingdom nation of Israel from rising to power again in Israel after many years of being subject to Rome.

Rome in the person of Nero also shared in opposing the Lamb and His followers for 42 months. Nero "overcame" the saints by a pogrom launched against them following the AD 64 fire at Rome. This Roman persecution of the saints was sidelined after Nero's death in AD 68, when the years of rebellion in Judea began requiring the new emperor Vespasian's undivided attention to quell it.

Christ warned his disciples that they would be "HATED BY ALL MEN for My name's sake". He wasn't kidding. Roman (Sea Beast), Zealot (Scarlet Beast), and Jewish leadership (False Prophet / Land Beast) ALL made war on the disciples of that generation in one way or another.
 
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