THE UNSCRIPTURAL THEOLOGIES OF AMILLENNIALISM AND POSTMILLENNIALISM

sovereigngrace

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Both of our positions are close to agreement on this. It is an age-ending little season of Satanic interference in God's Kingdom. I just believe that in the present age, Satan's rebellion will culminate in Antichrist's 3.5 years of tyranny. But we are already in the throes of Christian apostasy, ie apostasy within the former Christian territories.

Totally agree! Well put!
 
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parousia70

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The Millennial age is said, by us Premills, to still have mortal, sin-infected inhabitants on the earth, just as today. But we also say that Satan is removed, allowing the world to enjoy a measure of peace and fulfillment.

So in the Milennial Age, even the unrepentant will share in Christ's Victory over Sin and Satan?

What scripture teaches that the Unrepentant will EVER share in Christ's Victory over Sin and Satan?

I havent found that one.
 
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Christian Gedge

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Both of our positions are close to agreement on this. It is an age-ending little season of Satanic interference in God's Kingdom. I just believe that in the present age, Satan's rebellion will culminate in Antichrist's 3.5 years of tyranny. But we are already in the throes of Christian apostasy, ie apostasy within the former Christian territories.
Close to agreement, yes, :) but one problem remains. If we hold to an exact 3.5 years of tyranny in the very end, it enables us to make predictions. That's a no-no. :| I prefer to think prophecies of 3.5 years are using an old calendar term to represent a very short (but undefined) time span.
 
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RandyPNW

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So in the Milennial Age, even the unrepentant will share in Christ's Victory over Sin and Satan?

What scripture teaches that the Unrepentant will EVER share in Christ's Victory over Sin and Satan?

I havent found that one.

No, the unrepentant do not share in Christ's victory over sin, but they do benefit from Satan's being bound. That isn't Salvation--that's just enjoying a time of peace, which has happened many times in many nations throughout history. Often, peace does reign for awhile, even without Christian Salvation.
 
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RandyPNW

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Close to agreement, yes, :) but one problem remains. If we hold to an exact 3.5 years of tyranny in the very end, it enables us to make predictions. That's a no-no. :| I prefer to think prophecies of 3.5 years are using an old calendar term to represent a very short (but undefined) time span.

Yes, that's always been one of the most difficult questions to solve if you're Postrib as I am. If Antichrist reigns for 3.5 years exactly, then anybody who reads the book of Revelation, especially Christians, will know the exact day of Christ's return...or will they? And this may pose a problem for Pretribbers, as well.

There isn't anything wrong with making educated predictions, based on what the Bible says. After all, Jeremiah predicted the fall of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, and most anybody who believed him knew that date wasn't far off.

What the Bible does say, though, is that not enough is given to *unbelievers* for them to predict, with any accuracy, future events. They simply don't believe they're in sin, and that a judgment is awaiting them. So even if it is predicted to come next year, they're not going to believe it.

Even those who believe and will recognize an antichrist or the Antichrist will not know for certain if he is THE Antichrist, because "666" and "marks on the head and hand" may not even be literal. Or, even if they're partly literal, they may be so close to normal practices that they aren't recognized as blasphemous. So much of that is already beginning to happen in some political circles.

And the end of Antichrist's unchallenged power, that is, the 1260th day, is not when Antichrist is defeated, and so not the date of Christ's return. Antichrist begins with unchallenged supremacy on earth as a matchless superpower. But I suppose that on the 1260th day he loses his unchallenged power when the nations of the world rise up against him from the East, if I read it correctly.

Also, the 2 witnesses lie in the street of Jerusalem for 3.5 days *after* the 1260 days. And the Battle of Armageddon, which follows that event, is an enormous mobilization that could take many weeks. So we just can't predict when Christ will come, even if we know how close the end will be.

The ungodly world will not recognize these signs because they will be on the wrong side. And Christians, though they can't give a precise date for Christ's return, will know when that event is shortly to take place. That doesn't violate the rules prohibiting our predicting the date of Christ's return.
 
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Christian Gedge

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The ungodly world will not recognize these signs because they will be on the wrong side.

Hmmm, sharing 1000 years with the godly and never heard? I don't think so. But another question for you bro: Where do you get the 3.5 years at the end of the millennium from? Daniel 7, Daniel 9, Revelation, or all mentions of them?
 
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Timtofly

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I notice you never actually address what others write. You never explain their Scriptures. You just submit short dismissive evasive comments.
Similar to this post? This is the way you answer the majority of my post. What part of my post did you address?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Similar to this post? This is the way you answer the majority of my post. What part of my post did you address?

To me honest: I mainly don't read your posts.
 
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Timtofly

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Victorinus was the first of the orthodox writers to teach that the wicked populate a future millennial kingdom. He is also the first to detail Satan’s release after a literal thousand years in the future, and his baleful influence on the wicked who supposedly during Satan’s little season. Victorinus wrote mainly around AD 270. It is both notable and amazing, in light of the loud noise, and constant boastings coming from the Premillennial camp re its ancient heritage, that for 240 years after the cross there is no existing Premillennial teaching pertaining to the populating of the millennium with the wicked and the release of Satan 1,000 years after the second coming. Consequently, there was nothing taught by any traditional Chiliast before this that the second coming would be followed by Satan’s deceit of billions of millennial inhabitants, who come against the righteous as the sand of the sea in allegiance to Satan and overrun the millennium. For the first 240 years of the early Church these key elements of Premillennialism were either unknown or rejected by all the orthodox early Church writers. This is not insignificant!

Victorinus concisely submits:

And the scarlet devil is imprisoned and all his fugitive angels in the Tartarus of Gehenna at the coming of the Lord; no one is ignorant of this. And after the thousand years he is released, because of the nations which will have served Antichrist (Revelation commentary: 20.1).

This is the sum total of information we have on this supposed future uprising. Victorinus is markedly succinct on this matter. He doesn’t elaborate any more on his position. This is the totality of his surviving views. While Victorinus did previously make a passing comment about Satan being released, “because of the nations which will have served Antichrist,” he didn’t expand and delineate their activity, numbers, location and influence.
Is this proof that it took several hundred years before someone was willing to add to the words of the book of Revelation?

John had some reason for not giving us more detail than he did. Many cannot even accept the detail John did give. The teaching of "recap" or that all events are parallel is either just human opinion or adding words to the book of Revelation.
 
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Timtofly

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When have i ever said that Revelation 20:1-3 and Revelation 20:7-9 were not in anyone's Bibles for the first 240 years after the cross? Nowhere. I said, it was not until Victorinus, 240 years after the cross, that any orthodox ECF taught any of the core Premil fundamentals: including, two future resurrection and judgement days separated by 1000 years, the suspension of Christ's kingly reign, sin, death, corruption, the wicked and Satan on a millennial earth, Israel’s restoration to a place of pre-eminence above the Gentiles nations, the restoration of the whole old covenant arrangement (including the return of animal sacrifices, the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, and the return of the Old Testament priesthood), the casting down of Satan and his subsequent binding at the second coming, Satan being in the abyss for 1000 years after Christ's return, whereupon he will be released to win the affections of the countless millennial inhabitants as the sand of the sea. But the heretics taught many of these from the 1st century onward as I showed above.
Victorinus sounds more like an Amil adding words and putting the Antichrist at the end of the thousand years, like amil do.

"And the scarlet devil is imprisoned and all his fugitive angels in the Tartarus of Gehenna at the coming of the Lord; no one is ignorant of this. And after the thousand years he is released, because of the nations which will have served Antichrist (Revelation commentary: 20.1)."


Was that the first coming or second? Because it could be the first, without any other context. Revelation does not say when the angels were bound. That is past history. In fact Victorinus pointed out that was a "well known fact". Many were "not ignorant of this teaching" which is false by the way. No Scripture teaches that any coming of Jesus caused the binding of the angels into Tartarus. Revelation never claims that of the angels. Victorinus is literally infusing Greek mythology into the book of Revelation. And also claims an Antichrist at the very end of this one thousand years.
 
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Timtofly

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Close to agreement, yes, :) but one problem remains. If we hold to an exact 3.5 years of tyranny in the very end, it enables us to make predictions. That's a no-no. :| I prefer to think prophecies of 3.5 years are using an old calendar term to represent a very short (but undefined) time span.
John in Revelation 13 was not so dramatic in being careful of making predictions. He said "they" were given 42 months to overcome and bring about desolation. Just as Daniel 9:27 claims. The Prince Jesus Christ literally hands over control of the whole earth, just having been given all the kingdoms at the sound of the 7th Trumpet. Now Satan and company have 1.5 years to put that 42 months into perspective to be a time of desolation. This time before Armageddon is not negotiable. If allowed or necessary when the Covenant is confirmed, it will happen. If not necessary, it will not happen. There cannot even be an AC, or FP until the 7th Trumpet starts to sound.

Thank God this time is short. It would be more thankful it does not happen at all. Both Gabriel and John point out the worse case scenario. It has not happened yet.
 
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parousia70

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No, the unrepentant do not share in Christ's victory over sin, but they do benefit from Satan's being bound. That isn't Salvation--that's just enjoying a time of peace, which has happened many times in many nations throughout history. Often, peace does reign for awhile, even without Christian Salvation.

So You agree that Sin can abound while Satan is Bound?

Interesting... If Satan is Bound by the Victory of Christ over him at that time, How is it the unrepentant there are not Sharing in that Victory?
 
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RandyPNW

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Hmmm, sharing 1000 years with the godly and never heard? I don't think so. But another question for you bro: Where do you get the 3.5 years at the end of the millennium from? Daniel 7, Daniel 9, Revelation, or all mentions of them?

I don't get 3.5 years at the end of the Millennium. I was just showing commonality with a brother who is Amillennial. The 3.5 years at the end of this age is roughly synonymous with the rebellion of Satan at the end of the Millennium. Whether you believe in a literal Millennium or not, there is a season of Satanic rule at the end of the present period.

The Church has had Premill teaching from the beginning to the end of NT history. But the Church has been Amill for most of this period. So I don't make a big issue out of it. I'm Premill, but don't divide with brothers and sisters over the matter, although I'm quite willing to discuss it.

With regard to your claim that unbelievers will hear and understand the Gospel in the Millennium, I think it would be no different than it is in the present age. The Gospel is preached and yet in many former Christian countries where that Gospel has been preached unbelief has continued to survive and thrive.
 
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RandyPNW

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So You agree that Sin can abound while Satan is Bound?

Interesting... If Satan is Bound by the Victory of Christ over him at that time, How is it the unrepentant there are not Sharing in that Victory?

Yes, depending on how you define "abound." The Sin Nature, or mortality, continues in the Millennium Age, according to my view. But international peace reigns. It might be depicted, roughly, as something less than a divorce--more like lots of little spats. No major wars--just smaller examples of sin, such as the refusal of some nations to worship Christ.

Of course, the Amillennial position has the Kingdom and its peace reigning at present in a spiritual way in the lives of believers. And though they see Satan bound with respect to keeping us out of heaven, he is still free to inspire wars and many kinds of acts of sin.

Whatever position you hold to, you have the Kingdom of God somehow present with sin still continuing. Pick your poison! ;)
 
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parousia70

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Yes, depending on how you define "abound." The Sin Nature, or mortality, continues in the Millennium Age, according to my view. But international peace reigns. It might be depicted, roughly, as something less than a divorce--more like lots of little spats. No major wars--just smaller examples of sin, such as the refusal of some nations to worship Christ.

So Murder, Rape, Lynching, Armed Robery, Kidnapping, Child Abuse, imbezzlement, theivery, fornication, Homosexuality... all continue... Just no State Sanctioned War?

That is the sum total of the result and effect on Humanity of the Binding of Satan?

Of course, the Amillennial position has the Kingdom and its peace reigning at present in a spiritual way in the lives of believers. And though they see Satan bound with respect to keeping us out of heaven, he is still free to inspire wars and many kinds of acts of sin.

Difficult to distinguish an effectual or appreciable difference between your view of the millennial continuation of Sin in the Pre Mil paradigm from the Amil one... Both seem to have Human Beings Still capable of Comitting the gravest of Sins all on their own while Satan is Bound.

Whatever position you hold to, you have the Kingdom of God somehow present with sin still continuing. Pick your poison! ;)

Which makes the "Just look around at all the Sin!... Obviously Satan isnt bound right now" premil argument seem rather moot dontcha think?
 
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DavidPT

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So Murder, Rape, Lynching, Armed Robery, Kidnapping, Child Abuse, imbezzlement, theivery, fornication, Homosexuality... all continue... Just no State Sanctioned War?

Why would something like those things be permitted during the thousand years? When I read Zechariah 14:16-19, where I take to be meaning during the thousand years, there is no hint in any of those verses that things like what you are describing is taking place at the time. The text indicates there are punishments if one refuses to come up. It doesn't say anything about there being punishments for any of the things you mentioned. What some of you don't seem to realize, no one like what you are describing is going to be spared death at the 2nd coming to begin with. Yet, not everyone is like what you are describing. Not just meaning the saved. There are also those among the unsaved that don't fit any of what you listed. With something like that in mind, consider the following, which illustrates that in some cases there are exceptions, therefore it is not unreasonable to think God might spare some of the lost at His 2nd coming while putting to death some of the rest of them.

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.


How does one explain a passage like this one? Is the reason why, according to the text, that Lazarus receives eternal life because of his faith in God, or his faith in any of God's promises, or that he believed in a promised Messiah? The text indicates that it involves none of that, but that God simply had mercy on him because during Lazarus' lifetime he received evil things, but now he is comforted.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Why would something like those things be permitted during the thousand years? When I read Zechariah 14:16-19, where I take to be meaning during the thousand years, there is no hint in any of those verses that things like what you are describing is taking place at the time. The text indicates there are punishments if one refuses to come up. It doesn't say anything about there being punishments for any of the things you mentioned. What some of you don't seem to realize, no one like what you are describing is going to be spared death at the 2nd coming to begin with. Yet, not everyone is like what you are describing. Not just meaning the saved. There are also those among the unsaved that don't fit any of what you listed.

Really?

Surely the Jerusalem Premils portray in their alleged future millennium is altogether different to the one depicted in Zechariah 14:2 that is being attacked, “the houses rifled,” and “the women ravished”?

How can women in the millennium be "ravished" (or raped) when no one in Jerusalem is even mortal anymore (Zechariah 14:2)?

Zechariah 14:2-3, tells us that the result of the attack of the nations against Jerusalem is that “half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.” Surely this contradicts the whole Premillennial portrayal of Jerusalem during the millennium? This surely runs contrary to the perfect pristine peaceful Jerusalem Premils like to present in their literature, where Israel is exalted to a racially privileged position for 1,000 years?

How then can Jerusalem prosper when half of its population are dead and the other half are prisoners restrained by chains? I thought this was a glorious time for the city?
 
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DavidPT

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Really?

Surely the Jerusalem Premils portray in their alleged future millennium is altogether different to the one depicted in Zechariah 14:2 that is being attacked, “the houses rifled,” and “the women ravished”?

How can women in the millennium be "ravished" (or raped) when no one in Jerusalem is even mortal anymore (Zechariah 14:2)?

Zechariah 14:2-3, tells us that the result of the attack of the nations against Jerusalem is that “half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.” Surely this contradicts the whole Premillennial portrayal of Jerusalem during the millennium? This surely runs contrary to the perfect pristine peaceful Jerusalem Premils like to present in their literature, where Israel is exalted to a racially privileged position for 1,000 years?

How then can Jerusalem prosper when half of its population are dead and the other half are prisoners restrained by chains? I thought this was a glorious time for the city?


First of all, your arguments have to at least make sense, which they clearly don't in this case, if one is to consider any of your arguments. No Premil that I know of would be placing the time of Zechariah 14:2 during the millennium to begin with. That is still pertaining to this age and that most Premils typically take it to be involving the great tribulation in the end of this age prior to the 2nd coming.
 
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sovereigngrace

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First of all, your arguments have to at least make sense, which they clearly don't in this case, if one is to consider any of your arguments. No Premil that I know of would be placing the time of Zechariah 14:2 during the millennium to begin with. That is still pertaining to this age and that most Premils typically take it to be involving the great tribulation in the end of this age prior to the 2nd coming.

Oh! So, this is not part of your "day of the Lord" in verse 1? How convenient!
 
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Yes, depending on how you define "abound." The Sin Nature, or mortality, continues in the Millennium Age, according to my view. But international peace reigns. It might be depicted, roughly, as something less than a divorce--more like lots of little spats. No major wars--just smaller examples of sin, such as the refusal of some nations to worship Christ.

Of course, the Amillennial position has the Kingdom and its peace reigning at present in a spiritual way in the lives of believers. And though they see Satan bound with respect to keeping us out of heaven, he is still free to inspire wars and many kinds of acts of sin.

Whatever position you hold to, you have the Kingdom of God somehow present with sin still continuing. Pick your poison! ;)

I used to be Premil, like many Amils here. Here was a real struggle of mine.

When is the bondage of corruption lifted according to Scripture? What is it connected with? How does Scripture depict the age to come?

Constantly throughout the Word of God we see that “this present evil age” is equated with suffering and pain. The age to come is depicted as an eternal rest and safety. Romans 8:16-18 explains, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time (or kairos) are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall (or mello or hereafter) be revealed in us.”

There is a constant tension throughout the New Testament in regard to the imperfection of this age and the perfection of the age to come, the temporal nature of our current age and the eternal character of the age to come. The theme is consistent and well-defined. The phrase “this present time” found in this reading closely corresponds with the synonymous expression “this world/age” found throughout the New Testament to describe the here-and-now. It is a saying that is normally used when contrasting the imperfection of this current life to the bliss and glory of the approaching eternal state – “the world / age to come.” In fact, Scripture only knows of two ages – “this age” and the “age to come,” Scripture make no mention of, or allowance for, any imperfect semi-glorious/semi-corrupt transitional age in-between “this present time” or age and the eternal “age to come,” as Premils argue.

In this reading, Paul is simply comparing the testing and trials that God’s people currently endure in this current life, which is plagued with all the consequences of the fall, and the joy of the eternal state when Christ comes that is totally purged of the curse. The portrayal of this age correlates with Galatians 1:4 that labels “this present time” of “sufferings” as “this present evil age.” Paul speaks of a time when “the children of God” will be “glorified together” at His return. He assures his audience that the difficulties of this life are nothing “to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us” when Christ appears. His whole focus is the glory that will be finally and eternally realized at Christ’s return.

Romans 8:19-23 continues, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (phthora or decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

The Greek word interpreted “vanity” in the KJV is the Greek word mataiotes meaning: 1) what is devoid of truth and appropriateness; 2) perverseness, depravity; 3) frailty, want of vigour. This embodies all consequences of sin on the earth.

God in His providence and infinite wisdom has ordained a day when He will finally bring time, evil and the bondage of corruption to an end. This passage speaks of an approaching climactic event in history that will eventually and eternally release all creation from a position of current anguish and despair to a place of total liberation and relief. In fact, there can be no doubt; the central focus of this whole passage is the yearning of “the whole creation” for the day when “the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” There is indeed a termination to the “bondage of corruption” – it is the one and only future all-consummating Coming of Christ.

There is a direct connection between the liberation of “creation” and the liberation of the “sons of God.” Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will simultaneously be delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.” The day of redemption is shown throughout Scripture to be the second coming of Christ. It is there is that man experiences the final part of redemption – the redemption of his body.

R.C. Sproul expounds: “In this present darkness, the curse extends to the end of the earth— to our lives, to our labors, to our businesses, to our relationships. All suffer under the pangs of the curse of a fallen world. That’s why there’s a cosmic yearning, where all of creation groans together waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God, waiting for that moment when the curse is removed.”

This earth has been gradually degenerating since the fall. That is why people lived a lot longer at the beginning and why the earth would have probably produced a great deal more bountifully. Because of its degenerating state, creation will be regenerated and brought back to its pristine state. We see that in Psalm 102:25-27, which predicts, “Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.”

This earth is depicted in Scripture as gradually decaying to such a stage that it needs replaced. The surface of this earth is metaphorically likened unto a well-worn overcoat that needs replaced with a brand-new spotless garment. This is shown throughout the sacred pages to occur at the second coming. Christ is not going to replace the current tattered earthly coat with another deteriorating coat, as Premillennialists imagine. No! But rather a new perfected garment.

We see that also in Hebrews 1:10-12 tells us, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish [Gr. apollumi]; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old [Gr. palaioo] as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed [Gr. allasso]: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.”

These passages confirm the reality of the ongoing existence of the bondage of corruption. Comparing this earth to a fading and deteriorating garment, the writer tells us that the current heavens and earth is waxing old. The Greek word employed here for “wax old” is palaioo which means worn out, decaying or to declare obsolete. The Greek word apollumi means to destroy fully or perish.

These passages assure us that current imperfect decay earth/heavens is going to be replaced soon by a perfect arrangement. Creation is going to experience a supernatural overhaul because of its damaged and deficient character. The import here is of the current deteriorating and decaying heavens and earth being changed and replaced with a new non-decaying vesture. Of course, repeated Scripture locates this at the second coming of Christ.

The phrase “they shall be changed” in the Old Testament passage is taken from the Hebrew word chalaph: meaning to hasten away, pass on, or change. In the New Testament passage, it is taken from the Greek word allasso which means “to make different.” It is interesting to note the thrust of these 2 passages. They show the temporal nature of the current heavens and earth but the eternality of God’s goodness, faithfulness, years and salvation. This current corrupt earth has an expiration date.
 
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