Trump allies try to recast Capitol rioters as patriots ahead of Sept. 18 ‘justice’ rally (msn.com)

Fervent

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The government are indeed rulers. "Govern" is a synonym for "rule". Not sure why you have any notion that they are different. Our government is a representative one but they are a government nonetheless with the authority of government, the authority to rule (see the Constitution). All rulers, including Kings and Emperors, are servants anyway - they serve their people, they provide a service. That's why they get paid for it, via taxes. That's also in Romans 13.


Romans 13 has no "nuance" and is quite clear.
As for Rebellion:
1 Samuel 15:23 KJV: For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.
No, the US is structured so that it is popular sovereignty. The constitution, and the founders, set up the country so that should the government no longer represent the people, it is their right and duty to overthrow the government. That is why Jefferson praised Shay's rebellion and encouraged rebellion every 20 years or so. The government is only legitimate if it has the consent of the governed, and should people perceive that it no longer has that consent it is their responsibility to restore that consent.

Representatives are not rulers, and the fact that many in the US seem to think so demonstrates the government is no longer a legitimate one, but instead has usurped the authority of the people.
 
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98cwitr

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No, the US is structured so that it is popular sovereignty. The constitution, and the founders, set up the country so that should the government no longer represent the people, it is their right and duty to overthrow the government. That is why Jefferson praised Shay's rebellion and encouraged rebellion every 20 years or so. The government is only legitimate if it has the consent of the governed, and should people perceive that it no longer has that consent it is their responsibility to restore that consent.

Representatives are not rulers, and the fact that many in the US seem to think so demonstrates the government is no longer a legitimate one, but instead has usurped the authority of the people.

The crux of the issue is that contemporary American mentality is that our rights come from the government, and are granted by that institution. I had a real reality check on this in 2018, realizing that without God, there are no "inalienable" rights in any logical sense. The further we stray...the further our rights are removed.
 
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wing2000

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The crux of the issue is that contemporary American mentality is that our rights come from the government, and are granted by that institution. I had a real reality check on this in 2018, realizing that without God, there are no "inalienable" rights in any logical sense. The further we stray...the further our rights are removed.

do you think the people who entered the Capitol building displaying Christian banners and offering prayers in the senate chamber were exercising their inalienable rights?
 
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98cwitr

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do you think the people who entered the Capitol building displaying Christian banners and offering prayers in the senate chamber were exercising their inalienable rights?

Yes. Public building, not hurting anyone, exercising their 1st amendment rights. Not seeing the issue.
 
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wing2000

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Yes. Public building, not hurting anyone, exercising their 1st amendment rights. Not seeing the issue.

Ah, so I, as an American citizen, can break into the Senate chamber anytime I feel like it and exercise my inalienable rights? Good to know.
 
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wing2000

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Kind of amazing to me that those who went there and did nothing get, by silence, implied to be among the "insurrectionists." And Trump, of course, using language not even as bad as many of the Dems have used through the years, and did not know anyone had planned to riot, is said to have goaded them on etc. Sick. Yet nobody wants to know why warnings were not heeded, and nobody was ready for this...

And nobody wants to know about the thousands of rioters in these "mostly peaceful" Antifa/BLM riots where businesses are ruined, people are threatened, beaten and killed, government offices trashed and burned, and it went on and on, and nobody says anything.

do you believe those charged are "poltical prisoners?"

Now, allies of former President Donald Trump are calling those charged in the Capitol riot “political prisoners,” a stunning effort to revise the narrative of that deadly day.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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ArmenianJohn

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They went, but were not among the rioters. They did not riot. Only the rioters rioted. But because the narrative is that Trump caused this riot, all Trump supporters that were there are rioters. Yet Trump had nothing to do with the riot.
They were there literally among the rioters. They may not have rioted but they attended the rally among the rioters who did go on to riot.

Can you show me where you have seen the narrative "all Trump supporters that were there [meaning at the rally, not the riot itself] are rioters"? I have never, ever seen anyone make that assertion.

No, he did not incite the crowd to march down there and riot.
He did - I know this because the rioters themselves are the ones who said he did.

As for whataboutism, the hypocrisy of left's demonizing whole segments of the population, by association, with the rioters,
Again, please show me examples of this - I have not seen any such thing.

while ignoring or excusing or casting in a positive light —and even encouraging— earlier rioting in which much worse damage was done by the rioters, points to the left's interpretation of events Jan 6 as mere biased 'interpretation'.
I don't agree with your assertion that the left did that, but even if they did, how does that make it right for the right-wing rioters to riot? This whataboutism doesn't make the rioters' actions any more OK on either side, so I don't know what your point is in bringing it up, other than to perhaps distract from the fact that the right-wing rioters did what they did.

On top of that, there are claims that some of the rioters and specially some of the instigators were leftists, but that is still poo-pooed, or shouted down, or ignored; it is simply not interesting to those who have a narrative that needs to be preached.
Those claims are poo-pooed because they are empty. There is no evidence of such a thing, in fact the evidence proves that these people were all right-wing Trump supporters. If I'm wrong, please feel free to show me, but I have not seen evidence of your claims at all.

Soros and his kind, if they don't believe in Christianity's afterlife, have a lot to answer for. I wouldn't want their 'Karma'.
Many people don't believe in Christianity or Christ, the Bible says so. That doesn't have a border with political affiliation - it's just as prevalent among right-wingers as left-wingers and everyone in between.

No, it was planned before Trump had anything to say, nor did he instigate anything.
Again, the evidence says that the rioters themselves say they were following orders from Trump.

What's to know??? You don't remember???? You don't want to remember.
As I explained above, any other riot that has ever happened has no bearing on this one. No other riot done by anyone at any time makes the Jan. 6 riot any more OK, it is as bad as it is and no whataboutism can change that, no matter how much you want it to.

Who said it was ok to riot, or to do anything you claim happened there?
For the Jan. 6 riot it was the Trump supporters who rioted that claim they thought it was OK to riot because they believed they were following orders from President Trump. Is that what you're driving at?
 
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essentialsaltes

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Who is the delegated authority in America? The government are not rulers, they are representatives. Servants, not authorities unto themselves.

Yes, that's why We The People have elections. We The People did that. Being part of a democracy involves sucking it up if your side loses.

January 6th was sore losers displaying poor sportsmanship. In many cases violently.
 
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grasping the after wind

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"As a nation, our adjustments have been profound. Many Americans struggled to understand why an enemy would hate us with such zeal. The security measures incorporated into our lives are both sources of comfort and reminders of our vulnerability. And we have seen growing evidence that the dangers to our country can come not only across borders, but from violence that gathers within. There is little cultural overlap between violent extremists abroad and violent extremists at home. But in their disdain for pluralism, in their disregard for human life, in their determination to defile national symbols, they are children of the same foul spirit. And it is our continuing duty to confront them."

George W. Bush
September 11, 2021

I submit those things that I bolded, underlined and italicized apply to quite a few extremists not just extremists from one side of the political divide. They were on display repeatedly well before one particular incident occurred and continue to be on display to this day. I certainly cannot read George Bush's mind but if he was talking about only one particular group and no others you cannot tell from what he said.
 
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essentialsaltes

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On top of that, there are claims that some of the rioters and specially some of the instigators were leftists, but that is still poo-pooed, or shouted down, or ignored; it is simply not interesting to those who have a narrative that needs to be preached.

I have kept a careful (some might say obsessive) track of the people arrested, and charged and now being sentenced for their acts on Jan. 6th. You will not find many leftists in there. The one guy everybody points to smells pretty fishy. But I'll happily give you one. But the other 600+?

Any evidence for these 'claims'? Or is repeating the claim enough? Like 'rigged' elections?
 
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TLK Valentine

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I guess I shouldn't be surprised anymore but I am amazed that they are trying to once again re-write history about the Jan. 6 rioters and this time trying to portray them as "Patriots", even as they are being convicted and sent to prison one by one... It's truly unbelievable.

‘Some people are calling it Jan. 6 trutherism’: Trump allies try to recast Capitol rioters as patriots ahead of Sept. 18 ‘justice’ rally (msn.com)

© AP
ASSOCIATED PRESS
WASHINGTON (AP) — First, some blamed the deadly Jan. 6 attack at the U.S. Capitol on left-wing antifa antagonists, a theory quickly debunked. Then came comparisons of the rioters to peaceful protesters or even tourists.

Now, allies of former President Donald Trump are calling those charged in the Capitol riot “political prisoners,” a stunning effort to revise the narrative of that deadly day.

The brazen rhetoric ahead of a rally planned for Saturday at the Capitol is the latest attempt to explain away the horrific assault and obscure what played out for all the world to see: rioters loyal to the then-president storming the building, battling police and trying to stop Congress from certifying the election of Democrat Joe Biden.

Anyone else got a bad feeling that the ranks of "patriots" are about to swell exponentially on 9/18?
 
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ArmenianJohn

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No, the US is structured so that it is popular sovereignty. The constitution, and the founders, set up the country so that should the government no longer represent the people, it is their right and duty to overthrow the government. That is why Jefferson praised Shay's rebellion and encouraged rebellion every 20 years or so. The government is only legitimate if it has the consent of the governed, and should people perceive that it no longer has that consent it is their responsibility to restore that consent.
It doesn't matter the mechanism by which government is set up - it is the government nonetheless. God says in Romans 13 that He ordains earthly government as His Minister of Justice to you for good and whoever resists that power receives unto him damnation.

Even so, as a government with the basis of democratic representation (i.e. elections where the majority of votes determines the government officials) I don't know of any elected official who is elected with a minority of the votes, so "the people" and their will is being represented correctly.

Representatives are not rulers, and the fact that many in the US seem to think so demonstrates the government is no longer a legitimate one, but instead has usurped the authority of the people.
Well this is your own little invention, some kind of game of semantics that you're telling yourself in order to get around Romans 13. You can believe it all you like, but you don't make an argument that makes sense so I'm not going to believe it. The Constitution grants those lawmakers who are representatives with the power to rule, i.e. govern. They are rulers, plain and simple. Nothing you said changes that fact.

By the way, it doesn't matter so much what "many in the US seem to think" because based on our government's framework it matters what a majority thinks. Or, feel free to show me where in our government's framework it is designed to cater to "what many seem to think" instead of a majority.
 
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TLK Valentine

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do you think our govt is asking us to do things God would say no to??

The government's been doing that since they revolted against George III.

Why stop now?
 
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Mayzoo

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Who is the delegated authority in America? The government are not rulers, they are representatives. Servants, not authorities unto themselves.

Trying to blanket apply Biblical directives without recognizing the nuance is bound to lead to poor conclusions. Especially to compare cival disobedience/upheavel to witchcraft.

civ·il dis·o·be·di·ence
/ˈsivil ˈˌdisəˈbēdēəns/
Learn to pronounce

noun
  1. the refusal to comply with certain laws or to pay taxes and fines, as a peaceful form of political protest.

My emphasis.

Illegally entering a building by force is not peaceful.
 
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durangodawood

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No, the US is structured so that it is popular sovereignty. The constitution, and the founders, set up the country so that should the government no longer represent the people, it is their right and duty to overthrow the government. That is why Jefferson praised Shay's rebellion and encouraged rebellion every 20 years or so. The government is only legitimate if it has the consent of the governed, and should people perceive that it no longer has that consent it is their responsibility to restore that consent.

Representatives are not rulers, and the fact that many in the US seem to think so demonstrates the government is no longer a legitimate one, but instead has usurped the authority of the people.
When a candidate one dislikes wins an election, is that sufficient to justify a rebellion based on one's lack of consent to be governed?
 
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Tiberius Lee

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No, the US is structured so that it is popular sovereignty. The constitution, and the founders, set up the country so that should the government no longer represent the people, it is their right and duty to overthrow the government. That is why Jefferson praised Shay's rebellion and encouraged rebellion every 20 years or so. The government is only legitimate if it has the consent of the governed, and should people perceive that it no longer has that consent it is their responsibility to restore that consent.

Representatives are not rulers, and the fact that many in the US seem to think so demonstrates the government is no longer a legitimate one, but instead has usurped the authority of the people.

Your argument to support Jan 6 riot doesn’t work. The government on Jan 6 was represented by the people, and the incoming government also represented by the majority people. The minority who lost the election can’t accept the fact that they lost so they no longer think “ government is representing by the people” so they go to capital hill to overthrow the legitimately elected government.
 
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TLK Valentine

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civ·il dis·o·be·di·ence
/ˈsivil ˈˌdisəˈbēdēəns/
Learn to pronounce

noun
  1. the refusal to comply with certain laws or to pay taxes and fines, as a peaceful form of political protest.

My emphasis.

Illegally entering a building by force is not peaceful.

Indeed -- and the entire point of civil disobedience is to willfully break an unjust law, and accept punishment as a means of drawing public attention to the injustice of the law in question.

Accepting punishment means accepting responsibility -- something anathema to the 1/6 yahoos.
 
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