Of the following spiritual gifts, which ones are still available and which ones have ceased?

swordsman1

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Nothing in the writings of the early Church fathers indicates any such thinking. The letters were called "the memoirs of the Apostles," not "holy scripture."

If Peter said Paul's letters were scripture, I would rather believe him over any church father.

Nobody was considering the concept of "canon" until the Marcionite heresy in 140AD, and then it was another 200 years before they actually "completed" it.

The canon was completed when John completed the book of Revelation. He was the last person divinely authorized to write scripture. The various councils were only formed to determine which books were divinely inspired or not.
 
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RDKirk

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I expect they were just as baffled as to exactly what Paul was referring to, as much as commentators today are. It is an adjective (meaning complete or perfect) without a noun.



Peter knew that Paul's letters were part of scripture....

2 Peter 3:15-16 "..our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

and Paul knew that Luke's gospel was part of scripture....

1 Timothy 5:18 For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages.”

(“The worker deserves his wages” only appears in Luke 10:7)

And when the last of the apostles died they knew there would be no one else authorized to write scripture. The canon would be complete.


In order to prove your post-period point, you're arguing that Paul was deliberately writing nonsense to the churches he had founded.
 
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swordsman1

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In order to prove your post-period point, you're arguing that Paul was deliberately writing nonsense to the churches he had founded.

I never said that Paul was deliberately writing nonsense. Only that his audience would find some of it just as confusing as we do. Even Peter said some of Paul's writings were hard to understand.
 
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Jay Sea

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In 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 we find the following gifts:
  • utterance of wisdom
  • utterance of knowledge
  • faith
  • gifts of healing
  • working of miracles
  • prophecy
  • the ability to distinguish between spirits
  • various kinds of tongues
  • interpretation of tongues
Then, in verses 27-31 of the same chapter we find another list of gifts:
  • apostles
  • prophets
  • teachers
  • miracles
  • gifts of healing
  • helping
  • administrating
  • various kinds of tongues
  • interpretation of tongues
Romans 12:3-8 also contains a list of spiritual gifts:
  • prophecy
  • service
  • teaching
  • exhortation
  • contribution / generosity
  • leadership
  • acts of mercy
Ephesians 4:11-12 lists the following:
  • apostles
  • prophets
  • evangelists
  • shepherds
  • teachers
Question: Which of the gifts listed above are still available to the body of Christ and which ones have ceased?
Aren't all gifts that man possess, other than physical attributes, Spiritual gifts. Our inherent talents from birth that we should develop and not bury under a bush. Aren't we spiritual beings whose true home is in a spiritual Kingdom.
In Love
'Jay Sea
 
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Guojing

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Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

This must be one of the most widely misapplied verse in scripture. Jesus's attributes is the same at all times, that is all this verse is saying.
 
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TruthSeek3r

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1 Cor 13:8-10 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

Commentators are divided on whether 'completeness' means the completion of the NT canon, or the return of Christ. I subscribe to the former.

I'm still busy with stuff, so I'll be unable for a while to address all your points on the thread. However, in the meantime I thought it would be interesting to know what you think about this post: http://ntresources.com/blog/?p=490, which points to this paper: http://ntresources.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/perfectpaper94.pdf

The title of the paper: A History of Interpretation of “That Which Is Perfect” (1 Cor 13:10) with Special Attention to the Origin of the “Canon View”

Here is a screenshot of the Conclusion (for some reason copy & paste doesn't work for me):

upload_2021-9-14_10-1-42.png


By the way, I'm still waiting for your answers to these questions (which I already asked twice in previous posts):
  • How do you know that 2 Timothy 3:16 was supernaturally inspired by God?
  • How do you know that Acts chapter 2 is part of the canon of Scripture?
  • If the author of 2 Timothy was Paul, it's very well possible that 2 Timothy was written before the book of Acts was written. How can you know then that 2 Timothy 3:16 applies to the book of Acts as well?
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Yet Paul lists the church office of apostles as being for the church - so why did Paul not know he’s the last apostle?

And Hebrews calls Jesus an apostle.

Did Jesus appoint and send himself!

And how is it Barnabas is an apostle?

Act 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

You might want to rethink your position on that one.

Maranatha
There are the primary Apostles hand picked by Jesus for a specific purpose and there are secondary apostles picked by the Apostles.

They no longer exist as an office in the church. John was the last living Apostle.

hope this helps !!!
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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This must be one of the most widely misapplied verse in scripture. Jesus's attributes is the same at all times, that is all this verse is saying.
Amen !

It also applies to His humanity since the Incarnation. He remains human, a man.
 
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swordsman1

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I'm still busy with stuff, so I'll be unable for a while to address all your points on the thread.

Ok, let me know when get some convincing answers from the continuists on your StackExchange thread.

However, in the meantime I thought it would be interesting to know what you think about this post: http://ntresources.com/blog/?p=490, which points to this paper: http://ntresources.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/perfectpaper94.pdf

The title of the paper: A History of Interpretation of “That Which Is Perfect” (1 Cor 13:10) with Special Attention to the Origin of the “Canon View”

Here is a screenshot of the Conclusion (for some reason copy & paste doesn't work for me):

353651_da46543d3e914258a968f095af13004c.png

Firstly this is not a peer-reviewed published paper. It is an essay by a seminary student studying for his PhD.

Just looking at the conclusion I see there are a number of errors.

Firstly he claims that the canon view of cessation is a recent invention in response the charismatic movement. That is not true at all. The canon view dates back to the 1600's, long before the recent movement started, by such theological greats such as John Owen and Jonathan Edwards.....

Jonathan Edwards - Charity and its Fruits (1738)
And so there is a twofold failing of these miraculous gifts of the Spirit here mentioned. One was at the end of the first or infant age of the church, when the canon of Scripture was completed, and so there was to be no need of such gifts for the church in its latter ages, when it should have put away childish things, and come to a state of manhood before the end of the world, and when the Spirit of God should most gloriously be poured out and manifested in that love or charity, which is its greatest and everlasting fruit. And the other will be, when all the common fruits of the Spirit cease with respect to particular persons at death, and with respect to the whole church at the end of the world, while charity shall still remain in heaven, and there the Spirit of God shall be poured forth and manifested in perfect love in every heart to all eternity.

John Owen - A Discourse concerning the Holy Spirit (1676)
Since the finishing of the canon of the Scripture, the church is not under that conduct as to stand in need of such new extraordinary revelations. It doth, indeed, live upon the internal gracious operations of the Spirit, enabling us to understand, believe, and obey the perfect, complete revelation of the will of God already made; but new revelations it hath neither need nor use of; — and to suppose them, or a necessity of them, not only overthrows the perfection of the Scripture, but also leaveth us uncertain whether we know all that is to be believed in order unto salvation, or our whole duty, or when we may do so; for it would be our duty to live all our days in expectation of new revelations, wherewith neither peace, assurance, nor consolation is consistent.
...
But as this gift has now ceased under the New Testament, after the finishing of the canon of Scripture; nor was it by any pretended to, so was it limited of old to a very few inspired people, and plays no part in our present inquiry.
...
And this direction manifests that the gift was extraordinary, and is now ceased; though there be a continuance of ordinary gifts of the same kind, and to the same end in the church, as we shall see afterwards, ver. 30.​

He then backs the eschaton view because it has "historical preponderance", which truly is an example of the same fallacy that you kept wrongly accusing me of - Argumentum ad populum.

The reason so many early commentaries support the eschaton view is because they are based on the only predominant English translation of the bible for centuries, the KJV, which translates teleios as "the perfect" (wrongly in my view). As most of these commentaries are whole book or even whole bible commentaries, they rarely devote more than a few sentences to this passage. And, like many today, seeing the words "perfect" and "face to face" they quickly (and wrongly) jump to the conclusion it is referring to the return of Christ. This passage deserve a far more in-depth study such as those by the professors I quoted earlier who come to the conclusion the canon view is correct. (I have many more such expositions btw).

One saving grace of his essay is the fact that he correctly cautions that recent controversial issues can stimulates study which often results in greater theological precision, which I think is the case with the theological response to the charismatic movement.

So if I was his professor I would be awarding him 2 out of 10 for this effort.


By the way, I'm still waiting for your answers to these questions (which I already asked twice in previous posts):
  • How do you know that 2 Timothy 3:16 was supernaturally inspired by God?
  • How do you know that Acts chapter 2 is part of the canon of Scripture?
  • If the author of 2 Timothy was Paul, it's very well possible that 2 Timothy was written before the book of Acts was written. How can you know then that 2 Timothy 3:16 applies to the book of Acts as well?

I've already told you I am no longer playing your game demanding proof that the bible is inspired by God. It has nothing to do with this topic. If you think it has, then please explain how it relates. If you want to know why Christians believe the bible is inspired I suggest you start a new topic on the atheists board here.
 
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Mr. M

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This must be one of the most widely misapplied verse in scripture. Jesus's attributes is the same at all times, that is all this verse is saying.
Misapplied? You speak of attributes as if they are a minor detail. As in the unchanging Word of God?
Jesus, the Son of God, who cannot lie, whose logos is truth, who spoke often enough of
all those who believed in His name, and that all the promises of God are yes, and amen.
Such that I would not have anyone take away any promise, especially the promise of the
Holy Spirit, and every aspect of His ministry, described in detail in John 14-17, 1 Corinthians 12-14,
so many descriptions by Luke in both his gospel and account of the apostles, who did nothing without
the anointing, to a degree I prefer to call the book "The Acts of the Holy Spirit".
Since we are just sharing opinions, such as your humble interpretation of Hebrews 13:8,
I will throw out the possibility that any who diminish the role of the Holy Spirit in the activities
of the body of Christ are experimenting with their un-spiritual gift of blasphemy.
No need to wait for long that the time of the Gentiles will be fulfilled. Luke 21:24
That judgment will begin with the house of God. 1 Peter 4:17
That there will be a falling away. 2 Thessalonians 2:3
That the love of most will grow cold. Matthew 24:12
That this was an inevitability in a church so divided over who they serve as Lord. 2 Corinthians 3:17
That inevitable heresies would arise to bring desolation on those who indulge in them. 1 Corinthians 11:19, 2 Peter 2:1
As prophesied by the Lord
Matthew 12:25-37 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: Every kingdom divided
against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.
If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?
And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they
shall be your judges. But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God
has come upon you. Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless
he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. He who is not with Me is against
Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad. Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance
of the heart the mouth speaks. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Right, however, we limited the named apostles to that office. No idea if the apostles categorized themselves to that office and that no others could be named apostles.

I think the use of the language of vocation makes more sense. The Twelve, Paul, and the other apostles had the vocation of apostle. The apostolic vocation has never been lost, but rather has been vested in the pastoral ministry of the Church; so while none are called to be apostles by specific vocation since that time, it that vocation is still retained in all who are ordained to pastor, thus the bishops and presbyters of the ancient Church retained that apostolic vocation as the successors of the apostles. And so the Church still operates by apostolic authority, but that authority is in the ministry of the Church (i.e. the Keys)--exercised by those called and ordained for that purpose--rather than being a special appointment to an "office" of apostle.

I'd argue that both a Successionist (that is, Apostolic Succession as being necessary and essential) as well as non-Successionist positions can both follow from the premise: The Church operates by apostolic authority, granted by Christ, through the sacred ministry of the Keys exercised by those called to be ministers for the common good of the whole Church: That the Word is rightly preached and the Sacraments faithfully administered.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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TruthSeek3r

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Ok, let me know when get some convincing answers from the continuists on your StackExchange thread.

Unless we agree upon some epistemological standard (see Epistemology - Wikipedia), what is considered to be "convincing" will remain subjective and a matter of opinion. For example, cessationists (including yourself) and atheists are pretty much indistinguishable from each other, epistemologically speaking, when confronted with the overwhelming testimonial evidence for the continuation of spiritual gifts. Both would consider the testimonial evidence to be "unconvincing". However, atheists would consistently apply the same standard to the first century and conclude that there is no substantial evidence for miracles in the first century either, whereas cessationists like yourself make the positive claim (for which they have the burden of proof) that miracles did actually happen in the first century. So it's very obvious that whatever is convincing cessationists is not convincing atheists. And whatever is convincing continuationists is not convincing neither atheists nor cessationists. In other words, it becomes quite clear that we have different epistemologies.

I am really curious to know how your cessationist epistemology works, because at times your skepticism looks indistinguishable from an atheist's, but somehow you still believe in miracles during the first century whereas an atheist obviously doesn't.

Firstly this is not a peer-reviewed published paper. It is an essay by a seminary student studying for his PhD.

Sure, but you still have to judge the arguments on their own merits. Not everything has to be published in a peer-reviewed journal in order to be factually accurate. A sound argument will still remain sound even if all peer-reviewed journals somehow disappear from the face of the Earth.

Just looking at the conclusion I see there are a number of errors.

Firstly he claims that the canon view of cessation is a recent invention in response the charismatic movement. That is not true at all. The canon view dates back to the 1600's, long before the recent movement started, by such theological greats such as John Owen and Jonathan Edwards.....

Jonathan Edwards - Charity and its Fruits (1738)
And so there is a twofold failing of these miraculous gifts of the Spirit here mentioned. One was at the end of the first or infant age of the church, when the canon of Scripture was completed, and so there was to be no need of such gifts for the church in its latter ages, when it should have put away childish things, and come to a state of manhood before the end of the world, and when the Spirit of God should most gloriously be poured out and manifested in that love or charity, which is its greatest and everlasting fruit. And the other will be, when all the common fruits of the Spirit cease with respect to particular persons at death, and with respect to the whole church at the end of the world, while charity shall still remain in heaven, and there the Spirit of God shall be poured forth and manifested in perfect love in every heart to all eternity.

John Owen - A Discourse concerning the Holy Spirit (1676)
Since the finishing of the canon of the Scripture, the church is not under that conduct as to stand in need of such new extraordinary revelations. It doth, indeed, live upon the internal gracious operations of the Spirit, enabling us to understand, believe, and obey the perfect, complete revelation of the will of God already made; but new revelations it hath neither need nor use of; — and to suppose them, or a necessity of them, not only overthrows the perfection of the Scripture, but also leaveth us uncertain whether we know all that is to be believed in order unto salvation, or our whole duty, or when we may do so; for it would be our duty to live all our days in expectation of new revelations, wherewith neither peace, assurance, nor consolation is consistent.
...
But as this gift has now ceased under the New Testament, after the finishing of the canon of Scripture; nor was it by any pretended to, so was it limited of old to a very few inspired people, and plays no part in our present inquiry.
...
And this direction manifests that the gift was extraordinary, and is now ceased; though there be a continuance of ordinary gifts of the same kind, and to the same end in the church, as we shall see afterwards, ver. 30.​

Sure, fair enough. But that still leaves you with about 1.6 thousand years of eschaton view. In fact, the cessationist argument appealing to a closed canon/apostolic age was formulated for the first time by John Calvin during the Reformation (16th century). According to Wikipedia (Cessationism versus continuationism - Wikipedia):

During the Reformation the Catholic church used accounts of miracles in the Catholic church as a polemic against the Reformed churches. John Calvin wrote in a preface to his Institutes of the Christian Religion that the primary purpose of miracles was to confirm divine revelation and affirm the Church's doctrine. It was a proof that the Apostolic preaching was true. Because the Reformation reaffirmed the original Apostolic preaching, no additional miracles should be expected - and that was likewise true of all Apostolic churches, which led Calvin to argue that the miracles of the Catholic church were necessarily false.[21] This was the first formulation of a cessationist argument: that the miracles and healings of the church should not be expected, because divine revelation had already been confirmed and the foundation laid.

He then backs the eschaton view because it has "historical preponderance", which truly is an example of the same fallacy that you kept wrongly accusing me of - Argumentum ad populum.

Fair enough as well. But then this backs up my point: your constant appeal to the "the consensus of scholars" does not constitute by itself proof of anything, because otherwise you would have to reject John Calvin's argument for cessationism based on the fact that for almost 1600 years this argument was never the consensus and nobody believed it.

Carl Sagan wrote of arguments from authority:

One of the great commandments of science is, "Mistrust arguments from authority." ... Too many such arguments have proved too painfully wrong. Authorities must prove their contentions like everybody else.[21]
(source: Argument from authority - Wikipedia, which overlaps with the argumentum ad populum when you appeal to the consensus of your authorities of choice.)

The reason so many early commentaries support the eschaton view is because they are based on the only predominant English translation of the bible for centuries, the KJV, which translates teleios as "the perfect" (wrongly in my view). As most of these commentaries are whole book or even whole bible commentaries, they rarely devote more than a few sentences to this passage. And, like many today, seeing the words "perfect" and "face to face" they quickly (and wrongly) jump to the conclusion it is referring to the return of Christ. This passage deserve a far more in-depth study such as those by the professors I quoted earlier who come to the conclusion the canon view is correct. (I have many more such expositions btw).

The KJV version was written after 1600, so I'm not sure how you expect this argument to work for the first 16 centuries of church history, including patristic and medieval writers (see Patristic and Medieval writers cited in the article).

One saving grace of his essay is the fact that he correctly cautions that recent controversial issues can stimulates study which often results in greater theological precision, which I think is the case with the theological response to the charismatic movement.

We can agree on that.

So if I was his professor I would be awarding him 2 out of 10 for this effort.

Until you share a formal grading sheet with your evaluation rules and how you applied them to the article at hand, I'm not sure how you can expect me to take your "awards" objectively and seriously.

I've already told you I am no longer playing your game demanding proof that the bible is inspired by God. It has nothing to do with this topic. If you think it has, then please explain how it relates. If you want to know why Christians believe the bible is inspired I suggest you start a new topic on the atheists board here.

Two things:

1) I never asked you for proof that the the whole Bible is inspired. I only asked you to explain how you know that 2 Timothy 3:16 is inspired, and how you know that its statement applies to Acts 2 (remember that you cited 2 Timothy 3:16 in support of Acts 2).

2) It has everything to do with this topic, because those questions are aimed to gain deeper insight into your epistemology as a cessationist.

Again, let's take as an example the gift of tongues. If you were to ask me how do you know the gift of tongues has continued? I would answer you that there is plenty of testimonial evidence for its continuation. See for example:

Testimonies of Xenoglossy (verified by foreign native speakers)
Testimonies of speaking in tongues (we don't know if it was actual xenoglossy, but it can't be ruled out)
This is the true story of Carlos Annacondia, whose faithfulness, devotion, and faith in signs and miracles brought about an awakening in Argentina that has spread throughout the world and continues to this day. Annacondia's ministry is marked by the same signs and wonders of the early church—sick bodies are healed, bondages are broken, the demonized are set free, oppression is lifted—and he knows these subjects as very few people do.

Listen to Me, Satan! is full of amazing testimonies that will renew, inspire, and charge your faith. It's the story of how one man confronted the devil, in the authority of the name of Jesus, and experienced extraordinary results. Join him on his journey from the poor villages of Buenos Aires to a global ministry, and find victory and freedom in your own life as well.
  • And many many many MANY more ... (these are just a few examples).
Of course, you are going to dismiss all of this by saying that it is all made up, they are all lying, you won't believe unless irrefutable evidence published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal is presented to you, etc., which is exactly the same response I would expect from an atheist. You don't sound much different from an atheist when it comes to the continuation of spiritual gifts. If you want to endorse atheistic levels of skepticism, then sure, go for it, but then be consistent and do not explode in rants when you are asked to apply the same standards to your own claims about first century tongues.

You want me to show you irrefutable evidence of contemporary tongues? Great! Show me first your irrefutable evidence of first century tongues.

You said that your proof is Acts 2, which is supported by 2 Timothy 3:16. Great! Then show me how you know that:
  • 2 Timothy 3:16 is itself inspired and,
  • Acts is part of the canon and that 2 Timothy 3:16 applies to the book of Acts (i.e. how do you know that 2 Timothy 3:16 was written with the book of Acts is mind? How do you know that Acts was written before 2 Timothy 3:16 to begin with?)
 
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swordsman1

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Unless we agree upon some epistemological standard (see Epistemology - Wikipedia), what is considered to be "convincing" will remain subjective and a matter of opinion.

Yes I mean the material on StackExchange which in your opinion is convincing and is worth presenting here. For example the above student essay.

For example, cessationists (including yourself) and atheists are pretty much indistinguishable from each other, epistemologically speaking, when confronted with the overwhelming testimonial evidence for the continuation of spiritual gifts. Both would consider the testimonial evidence to be "unconvincing".

It is not just cessationists and atheists who find charismatic hearsay unconvincing, it is every right thinking person who appraises evidence in a discerning manner, not least every court of law where such evidence is not even admissible due to it's unreliability.

The only people who do find charismatic hearsay convincing are gullible people desperately craving miracles, who will believe any fantastical story they hear in order to satisfy their unhealthy obsession for the supernatural.

However, atheists would consistently apply the same standard to the first century and conclude that there is no substantial evidence for miracles in the first century either, whereas cessationists like yourself make the positive claim (for which they have the burden of proof) that miracles did actually happen in the first century. So it's very obvious that whatever is convincing cessationists is not convincing atheists. And whatever is convincing continuationists is not convincing neither atheists nor cessationists. In other words, it becomes quite clear that we have different epistemologies.

What convinces cessationists, and every other Christian, that miracles occurred in the 1st century is the fact they are recorded in scripture, the highest standard of truth.

Sure, but you still have to judge the arguments on their own merits. Not everything has to be published in a peer-reviewed journal in order to be factually accurate. A sound argument will still remain sound even if all peer-reviewed journals somehow disappear from the face of Earth.

That may be the case, but if the work is by a seminary professor, peer reviewed and published you know straight away that it has some merit. Otherwise you will have to spend hours sifting through all sorts of dross from unqualified armchair amateurs who are mostly untrained in the principles of hermeneutics. And the problems that I quickly identified in this student's essay highlights why it would never have been published by any respected theological journal.

Sure, fair enough. But that still leaves you with about 1.6 thousand years of eschaton view. In fact, the cessationist argument appealing to a closed canon/apostolic age was formulated for the first time by John Calvin during the Reformation (16th century). According to Wikipedia (Cessationism versus continuationism - Wikipedia):

During the Reformation the Catholic church used accounts of miracles in the Catholic church as a polemic against the Reformed churches. John Calvin wrote in a preface to his Institutes of the Christian Religion that the primary purpose of miracles was to confirm divine revelation and affirm the Church's doctrine. It was a proof that the Apostolic preaching was true. Because the Reformation reaffirmed the original Apostolic preaching, no additional miracles should be expected - and that was likewise true of all Apostolic churches, which led Calvin to argue that the miracles of the Catholic church were necessarily false.[21] This was the first formulation of a cessationist argument: that the miracles and healings of the church should not be expected, because divine revelation had already been confirmed and the foundation laid.

Frankly, the quality of theological commentary was appalling in the Dark Ages and earlier compared to the academic standards of the last hundred years. The quality and availability of bible manuscripts were poor and often incomplete. They didn't have the entire 66 books neatly printed in one volume accurately translated by a team of Hebrew and Greek scholars from the earliest, and thus most reliable, manuscripts. Even the good-for-its-day KJV was translated from 13th century Greek manuscripts (which scribes had hand copied over and over again, often adding their own little 'clarifications'). Mistranslation was common, often being a translation of a translation (eg from the Latin Vulgate). Knowledge of Koine Greek with all its foibles was weak. Greek lexicons were unheard of. You basically had to be self taught in every aspect of Koine Greek as well as being theologically astute, and the number of people properly qualified and equipped for such a task was miniscule. Before the Reformation there was also heavy Catholic bias in favour of tongues and other miracles as they were the necessary qualification for the canonization of their saints. As a result early commentaries were usually vague, confused and unreliable.

Fair enough as well. But then this backs up my point: your constant appeal to the "the consensus of scholars" does not constitute by itself proof of anything, because otherwise you would have to reject John Calvin's argument for cessationism based on the fact that for almost 1600 years this argument was never the consensus and nobody believed it.

Eh? Calvin's argument must be rejected because he doesn't use Argumentum ad populum????

Carl Sagan wrote of arguments from authority:

One of the great commandments of science is, "Mistrust arguments from authority." ... Too many such arguments have proved too painfully wrong. Authorities must prove their contentions like everybody else.[21]
(source: Argument from authority - Wikipedia, which overlaps with the argumentum ad populum when you appeal to the consensus of your authorities of choice.)

Sorting out the wheat from the chaff by citing peer-reviewed published commentaries by reputable scholars is not an Argument from authority. The appeal it to the content of the authority, not to the authority himself. Sagan is right, authorities must prove their contentions, and in peer reviewed material they invariably are.

Speaking of Carl Sagan, did you know he also formulated the famous and widely accepted Sagan Standard, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Which basically means if you make a fantastical claim (eg a miracle taking place), you'd better have strong evidence to prove it happened (ie. not hearsay).

Until you share a formal grading sheet with your evaluation rules and how you applied them to the article at hand, I'm not sure how you can expect me to take your "awards" objectively and seriously.

I wasn't expecting you to take it seriously. :rolleyes:

Two things:

1) I never asked you for proof that the the whole Bible is inspired. I only asked you to explain how you know that 2 Timothy 3:16 is inspired, and how you know that its statement applies to Acts 2 (remember that you cited 2 Timothy 3:16 in support of Acts 2).

2) It has everything to do with this topic, because those questions are aimed to gain deeper insight into your epistemology as a cessationist.

Again, let's take as an example the gift of tongues. If you were to ask me how do you know the gift of tongues has continued? I would answer you that there is plenty of testimonial evidence for its continuation. See for example:

Although this question has nothing to do with cessationism, I've already given you the answer that settles the matter for Christians, namely that 2 Tim 3:16 says ALL scripture is inspired (including 2 Tim 3:16 itself as that too is scripture). Accusing Christians of circular reasoning and demanding further scientific proof is arguing as an atheist attacking Christianity. I could give you a deeper reason but a philosophical analysis of MY PERSONAL BELIEF that Scripture is inspired is also NOT related to the subject of cessationism. And so you will be not be getting any further answers from me on that question, at least not on this thread. So you are wasting everyone's time by continuing to thrash this pointless off-topic horse. Start another topic on proof for the inspiration of Scripture and I may well contribute.
 
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TruthSeek3r

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It is not just cessationists and atheists who find charismatic hearsay unconvincing, it is every right thinking person who appraises evidence in a discerning manner, not least every court of law where such evidence is not even admissible due to it's unreliability.

The only people who do find charismatic hearsay convincing are gullible people desperately craving miracles, who will believe any fantastical story they hear in order to satisfy their unhealthy obsession for the supernatural.

Are you including in that list Zac Poonen (Zac Poonen | cfcindia, Bangalore), who has been personally praying in tongues for the last 45+ years since he received the baptism in the Holy Spirit?

See The Truth About Speaking In Tongues | cfcindia, Bangalore.

Quote from the article:

As one who has spoken in tongues for the past 45 years, let me add a few words concerning what I presently understand about the gift, from my own experience.

You can watch his testimony here:

(Clip) Testimony of Being Filled with the Holy Spirit by Zac Poonen

Be Filled with the Holy Spirit - Zac Poonen - April 7, 2019

______________________________________

Are you including in that list Yiye Ávila, one the most influential Protestant preachers of the Spanish language? According to Wikipedia:

José Joaquín Ávila Portalatín (September 11, 1925 – June 28, 2013), better known as Yiye Ávila, was a Puerto Rican Pentecostal Evangelist and writer of Sephardic origins. His preaching and messages were characterized in proclaiming that the coming of Christ is imminent. He is considered one of the most influential Protestant preachers of the Spanish language. He was also the second runner-up for Mr. North America in 1953.

[...]

Sporting life

He began playing baseball in the Double A level and training as a weight lifter. In 1952, he competed and won the Mr. Puerto Rico bodybuilding contest, and would go on to become the second runner-up for the title of Mr. North America in 1953.[6]

While training for the summer Olympic Games of 1956, Ávila experienced terrible pain in parts of his body and, after various tests, was diagnosed with chronic arthritis by his doctors. This prevented him from participating in the Olympics or in any other future sporting event. The pain was so intense that Ávila suffered limited mobility and could not even perform everyday chores. He turned to Christianity and began praying, seeking divine intervention for his situation. According to him, he received a divine revelation through the reading and study of the Protestant Bible, where he received healing from Jesus Christ. From that time on, he dedicated himself to ministry.

Beginning in the 1970s, Yiye became a laborious evangelist, visiting almost all Latin American countries, many North American cities, and parts of Europe. He appeared on a daily morning telecast preaching selected verses from the Bible and receiving prayer petitions from viewers. He also appeared every Saturday night on the network's flagship show, Campaña Por TV (Campaigning Through TV), where he preached selected verses of the New Testament, presented Evangelical Christian music groups, and invited viewers to convert to Evangelical Christianity.​

Additionally, if you are more or less able to understand some Spanish, there are videos of him sharing his testimony at evangelistic crusades where he was the main preacher (e.g. here, here, here, here). In those testimonies he recounts extraordinary, supernatural experiences he had with the Lord Jesus Christ, including a physical visitation to his room to confirm his calling as an evangelist, his baptism in the Holy Spirit, his experiences during a 40-day fast, among others. He also authored a book titled "Mis experiencias con Jesús" (My experiences with Jesus), available as audiobook here and as pdf file here, where he shares many more extraordinary experiences he allegedly had with the Lord.



______________________________________

Are you also including in that list Carlos Annacondia?

This is another revivalist Hispanic preacher, from Argentina. He authored the book "¡Oíme bien, Satanás!" (Listen to me, Satan!), available here. The book's preface is self-explanatory:

This is the true story of Carlos Annacondia, whose faithfulness, devotion, and faith in signs and miracles brought about an awakening in Argentina that has spread throughout the world and continues to this day. Annacondia's ministry is marked by the same signs and wonders of the early church—sick bodies are healed, bondages are broken, the demonized are set free, oppression is lifted—and he knows these subjects as very few people do.

Listen to Me, Satan! is full of amazing testimonies that will renew, inspire, and charge your faith. It's the story of how one man confronted the devil, in the authority of the name of Jesus, and experienced extraordinary results. Join him on his journey from the poor villages of Buenos Aires to a global ministry, and find victory and freedom in your own life as well.​

A Christian magazine published an interview with Carlos Annacondia titled Carlos Annacondia: The evangelist at the forefront of revival. Some highlights below:

The evangelist says that he received a message from God in 1981 saying: “Soon, soon, soon. There will be a great revival in Argentina. Argentina will be mine, says the Lord.” Since then, his large-scale rallies, held in cooperation with local churches in towns and cities across the country, have drawn millions of people and seen thousands of new churches planted.

[...]

So I entered into a hall full of worship and adoration, accompanied by my wife and my children. I started to hear a voice talking to me. “Carlos, you’re so worried about life – for your children’s future, for your businesses – you are unhappy. Give me your heart, I will give you life.” It was the voice of the Lord Jesus. And I started to cry – and it wasn’t easy for me to cry, because I believed if you cry, you are not a man, and that’s what I told my wife as well: men do not cry. But that day I just broke down in tears.

[...]

Ten days after that experience, I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I remember having my hands up to heaven and suddenly I just felt this warmth, this fire that I could not control, and my whole body started to shake and I started to speak in a language that I’d never spoken before.

Things started to happen to me: I’d just be shaking hands with somebody, and the person would say, “Let go, I feel like electricity is in your hands!” I’d just visit somebody I knew, and encounter demonic manifestations with several members of the family that I was visiting. I didn’t yet know what that was, and I had to learn. [...]​



You can watch actual footage of the deliverances performed at his crusades. Check out for example:

carlos annacondia campaña en argentina 2/8

carlos annacondia campaña en argentina 4/8
 
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It is not just cessationists and atheists who find charismatic hearsay unconvincing, it is every right thinking person who appraises evidence in a discerning manner, not least every court of law where such evidence is not even admissible due to it's unreliability.

The only people who do find charismatic hearsay convincing are gullible people desperately craving miracles, who will believe any fantastical story they hear in order to satisfy their unhealthy obsession for the supernatural.

Are you also including in that list David Wilkerson (David Wilkerson - Wikipedia)?

Watch his sermon:

David Wilkerson - You Need The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit

Also check out Walking in the Spirit! by David Wilkerson December 30, 1991

Quote:

Many Christians today are convinced they are walking in the Spirit simply because they pray in tongues. They reason, "How could I pray in tongues and not be walking in the Spirit?" But praying in tongues is not necessarily praying in the Spirit. Many who desire to pray in the Spirit immediately launch out in tongues - and yet their minds are totally elsewhere!

The Bible says if you're speaking in tongues, your understanding is not fruitful. If we speak with tongues, let us also pray with our understanding. Praying in the Spirit can include praying in tongues - but it is so much more then that!
See also Gary Wilkerson, son of David Wilkerson, about the spiritual gifts: Understanding Spiritual Gifts | worldchallenge.org

  • It’s important to distinguish spiritual gifts as different than skills, talents and personality traits.
  • Spiritual gifts are a manifestation of the Spirit of God in and through Christians that enables us to exceed our finite human limitations in order to serve and build up others in the body of Christ.
  • There are things that all Christians are called to do, like intercession and evangelism, but some have an extraordinary capacity and effectiveness in those areas.
  • We can desire and pray for specific spiritual gifts, but the Spirit gives to each individual as God wills.
  • As a follower of Christ, you are not limited to having only one spiritual gift.
  • The particular spiritual gift or gifts that you have does not determine any kind of higher status or value in the Kingdom of God.
 
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TruthSeek3r

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It is not just cessationists and atheists who find charismatic hearsay unconvincing, it is every right thinking person who appraises evidence in a discerning manner, not least every court of law where such evidence is not even admissible due to it's unreliability.

The only people who do find charismatic hearsay convincing are gullible people desperately craving miracles, who will believe any fantastical story they hear in order to satisfy their unhealthy obsession for the supernatural.

Are you also including in that list Jack Deere (Jack Deere - Wikipedia), a former cessationist who later became a continuationist based on first-hand personal experience?

He is the author of the book Why I Am Still Surprised by the Power of the Spirit: Discovering How God Speaks and Heals Today (https://www.amazon.com/Why-Still-Surprised-Power-Spirit/dp/031010811X).

Here is the preface:

When Jack Deere turned seventeen, he did not know God or a single verse of Scripture. At twenty-seven, he became a professor of Old Testament Exegesis and Semitic Languages at Dallas Theological Seminary. He started and pastored an influential church in Ft. Worth, Texas. He taught his church and his students that God no longer gave the "miraculous gifts of the Spirit" or spoke outside the pages of Scripture.

After teaching seminary for ten years, a bestselling author shocked Deere when he told him that he not only believed God was regularly healing people today, but that he had seen undeniable miracles in answer to his prayers. For the next four months, Deere studied every healing story in the New Testament. This time he came to those stories with the open mind of a scholar, completely at home in the original languages of the Bible, not as a gullible student swallowing the prejudices of his teachers. At the end of those four months, Deere was convinced, against his will, that God was still healing and speaking just as he had done in the New Testament.

Deere and his wife Leesa began to pray for people in their church and witnessed dramatic, documented healings.

In Why I Am Still Surprised by the Power of the Spirit, Deere demonstrates that the Scriptures teach that God is healing and speaking today just as he did 2000 years ago. He tells documented stories of modern miracles. He explains the nature of spiritual gifts, defines each spiritual gift, offers sound advice on discovering and using the gifts in church today. He shows how all of this part of God's way of deepening our friendship with him.

A modern classic, Surprised by the Power of the Spirit was published twenty-five years ago, and in that book Deere claimed that he would live long enough to see the majority of conservative evangelicals come to believe in all the gifts of the Spirit. That has come true. The theological landscape has changed dramatically. Nearly completely rewritten, this new edition still offers that proof but has about seventy percent new material on the practical matters of experiencing and using spiritual gifts. For example, anyone who prays regularly for the sick will encounter demonic power. Demons pop up all over the Synoptic Gospels. There are two new chapters on ministering to the demonized. There is much confusion on what it means to be filled with the Spirit today. Deere takes three chapters to examine every use of "filled with the Spirit" and "full of the Spirit" in the New Testament to show why and how God still fills his servants with the Holy Spirit. There are many new stories of God's power, even walking on water and multiplying food. Deere also introduces the newest literature defending and explaining the gifts of the Spirit. All this and more continues the book's legacy for a new time.​
 
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swordsman1

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Are you including in that list Zac Poonen (Zac Poonen | cfcindia, Bangalore), who has been personally praying in tongues for the last 45+ years since he received the baptism in the Holy Spirit?

See The Truth About Speaking In Tongues | cfcindia, Bangalore.

Quote from the article:

As one who has spoken in tongues for the past 45 years, let me add a few words concerning what I presently understand about the gift, from my own experience.


Absolutely. This person is not even speaking in tongues as the bible describes the gift, let alone providing any verified evidence for speaking a foreign language he has never learned.


Are you including in that list Yiye Ávila, one the most influential Protestant preachers of the Spanish language? According to Wikipedia:

José Joaquín Ávila Portalatín (September 11, 1925 – June 28, 2013), better known as Yiye Ávila, was a Puerto Rican Pentecostal Evangelist and writer of Sephardic origins. His preaching and messages were characterized in proclaiming that the coming of Christ is imminent. He is considered one of the most influential Protestant preachers of the Spanish language. He was also the second runner-up for Mr. North America in 1953.

[...]

Sporting life

He began playing baseball in the Double A level and training as a weight lifter. In 1952, he competed and won the Mr. Puerto Rico bodybuilding contest, and would go on to become the second runner-up for the title of Mr. North America in 1953.[6]

While training for the summer Olympic Games of 1956, Ávila experienced terrible pain in parts of his body and, after various tests, was diagnosed with chronic arthritis by his doctors. This prevented him from participating in the Olympics or in any other future sporting event. The pain was so intense that Ávila suffered limited mobility and could not even perform everyday chores. He turned to Christianity and began praying, seeking divine intervention for his situation. According to him, he received a divine revelation through the reading and study of the Protestant Bible, where he received healing from Jesus Christ. From that time on, he dedicated himself to ministry.

Absolutely. This is a third hand oral account. ie unreliable hearsay. Even if it was proved to be a true miracle, this person received healing by praying for it. It is not an example of the gift of healing.

Are you also including in that list Carlos Annacondia?

This is another revivalist Hispanic preacher, from Argentina. He authored the book "¡Oíme bien, Satanás!" (Listen to me, Satan!), available here. The book's preface is self-explanatory:

This is the true story of Carlos Annacondia, whose faithfulness, devotion, and faith in signs and miracles brought about an awakening in Argentina that has spread throughout the world and continues to this day. Annacondia's ministry is marked by the same signs and wonders of the early church—sick bodies are healed, bondages are broken, the demonized are set free, oppression is lifted—and he knows these subjects as very few people do.

Listen to Me, Satan! is full of amazing testimonies that will renew, inspire, and charge your faith. It's the story of how one man confronted the devil, in the authority of the name of Jesus, and experienced extraordinary results. Join him on his journey from the poor villages of Buenos Aires to a global ministry, and find victory and freedom in your own life as well.

Absolutely. I am expected to believe miracles occurred by just a few scant words on book's preface? Hearsay!
 
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swordsman1

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Are you also including in that list David Wilkerson (David Wilkerson - Wikipedia)?

Watch his sermon:

David Wilkerson - You Need The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit

Also check out Walking in the Spirit! by David Wilkerson December 30, 1991

Quote:

Many Christians today are convinced they are walking in the Spirit simply because they pray in tongues. They reason, "How could I pray in tongues and not be walking in the Spirit?" But praying in tongues is not necessarily praying in the Spirit. Many who desire to pray in the Spirit immediately launch out in tongues - and yet their minds are totally elsewhere!

The Bible says if you're speaking in tongues, your understanding is not fruitful. If we speak with tongues, let us also pray with our understanding. Praying in the Spirit can include praying in tongues - but it is so much more then that!
See also Gary Wilkerson, son of David Wilkerson, about the spiritual gifts: Understanding Spiritual Gifts | worldchallenge.org

  • It’s important to distinguish spiritual gifts as different than skills, talents and personality traits.
  • Spiritual gifts are a manifestation of the Spirit of God in and through Christians that enables us to exceed our finite human limitations in order to serve and build up others in the body of Christ.
  • There are things that all Christians are called to do, like intercession and evangelism, but some have an extraordinary capacity and effectiveness in those areas.
  • We can desire and pray for specific spiritual gifts, but the Spirit gives to each individual as God wills.
  • As a follower of Christ, you are not limited to having only one spiritual gift.
  • The particular spiritual gift or gifts that you have does not determine any kind of higher status or value in the Kingdom of God.

Sorry I am not going to watch an hour long sermon. Tell me where in the video he claims a miracle occurred and I will check it out. I expect it will be hearsay.
 
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swordsman1

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Are you also including in that list Jack Deere (Jack Deere - Wikipedia), a former cessationist who later became a continuationist based on first-hand personal experience?

He is the author of the book Why I Am Still Surprised by the Power of the Spirit: Discovering How God Speaks and Heals Today (https://www.amazon.com/Why-Still-Surprised-Power-Spirit/dp/031010811X).

Here is the preface:

When Jack Deere turned seventeen, he did not know God or a single verse of Scripture. At twenty-seven, he became a professor of Old Testament Exegesis and Semitic Languages at Dallas Theological Seminary. He started and pastored an influential church in Ft. Worth, Texas. He taught his church and his students that God no longer gave the "miraculous gifts of the Spirit" or spoke outside the pages of Scripture.

After teaching seminary for ten years, a bestselling author shocked Deere when he told him that he not only believed God was regularly healing people today, but that he had seen undeniable miracles in answer to his prayers. For the next four months, Deere studied every healing story in the New Testament. This time he came to those stories with the open mind of a scholar, completely at home in the original languages of the Bible, not as a gullible student swallowing the prejudices of his teachers. At the end of those four months, Deere was convinced, against his will, that God was still healing and speaking just as he had done in the New Testament.

Deere and his wife Leesa began to pray for people in their church and witnessed dramatic, documented healings.

In Why I Am Still Surprised by the Power of the Spirit, Deere demonstrates that the Scriptures teach that God is healing and speaking today just as he did 2000 years ago. He tells documented stories of modern miracles. He explains the nature of spiritual gifts, defines each spiritual gift, offers sound advice on discovering and using the gifts in church today. He shows how all of this part of God's way of deepening our friendship with him.

A modern classic, Surprised by the Power of the Spirit was published twenty-five years ago, and in that book Deere claimed that he would live long enough to see the majority of conservative evangelicals come to believe in all the gifts of the Spirit. That has come true. The theological landscape has changed dramatically. Nearly completely rewritten, this new edition still offers that proof but has about seventy percent new material on the practical matters of experiencing and using spiritual gifts. For example, anyone who prays regularly for the sick will encounter demonic power. Demons pop up all over the Synoptic Gospels. There are two new chapters on ministering to the demonized. There is much confusion on what it means to be filled with the Spirit today. Deere takes three chapters to examine every use of "filled with the Spirit" and "full of the Spirit" in the New Testament to show why and how God still fills his servants with the Holy Spirit. There are many new stories of God's power, even walking on water and multiplying food. Deere also introduces the newest literature defending and explaining the gifts of the Spirit. All this and more continues the book's legacy for a new time.​

I've got a copy of Deere's earlier book. It is full of hearsay and exegetical fallacies. I expect this to be the same.
 
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Misapplied? You speak of attributes as if they are a minor detail. As in the unchanging Word of God?
Jesus, the Son of God, who cannot lie, whose logos is truth, who spoke often enough of
all those who believed in His name, and that all the promises of God are yes, and amen.
Such that I would not have anyone take away any promise, especially the promise of the
Holy Spirit, and every aspect of His ministry, described in detail in John 14-17, 1 Corinthians 12-14,
so many descriptions by Luke in both his gospel and account of the apostles, who did nothing without
the anointing, to a degree I prefer to call the book "The Acts of the Holy Spirit".
Since we are just sharing opinions, such as your humble interpretation of Hebrews 13:8,
I will throw out the possibility that any who diminish the role of the Holy Spirit in the activities
of the body of Christ are experimenting with their un-spiritual gift of blasphemy.
No need to wait for long that the time of the Gentiles will be fulfilled. Luke 21:24
That judgment will begin with the house of God. 1 Peter 4:17
That there will be a falling away. 2 Thessalonians 2:3
That the love of most will grow cold. Matthew 24:12
That this was an inevitability in a church so divided over who they serve as Lord. 2 Corinthians 3:17
That inevitable heresies would arise to bring desolation on those who indulge in them. 1 Corinthians 11:19, 2 Peter 2:1
As prophesied by the Lord
Matthew 12:25-37 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: Every kingdom divided
against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.
If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?
And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they
shall be your judges. But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God
has come upon you. Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless
he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. He who is not with Me is against
Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad. Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance
of the heart the mouth speaks. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

So my point is, you should not use Hebrews 13:8 to claim that the spiritual gifts continue today.

Just because Jesus is the same at all times, it does not mean the same spiritual gifts must operate at all times. There is no connection between the 2 points.
 
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