Why does the Millennial doctrine matter to the church?

Gary K said:

I fully agree that God is just. But how many Christians still live with doubts about God? God must clear up all doubts about Himself if sin is to never reappear in the universe.

If someone whom you think should be in heaven isn't there with you what would be your natural response?

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Gary K said:

I fully agree that God is just. But how many Christians still live with doubts about God? God must clear up all doubts about Himself if sin is to never reappear in the universe.

If someone whom you think should be in heaven isn't there with you what would be your natural response?

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I think you're looking for the answer, "God is just" for why someone wouldn't be in heaven. But "God is loving" is an alternate option.

I can see the point you're making, that the justice of God must be evident before people will stop sinning, but I'm just not convinced that is the issue.

[Heb 2:15 KJV] 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Bondage to what? I think it's talking about the bondage to sin. If we are in bondage to sin because of the fear of death, then perfect love is what would cast out that fear, most notably by overcoming death. (A simple example of this is that if we fear death from starvation, we might over-indulge, resulting in gluttony.)

So, going back to the premise that God must display His justice in order for people not to sin, He has already displayed His justice to every man in the curse of death that befalls every man. But that wasn't enough to cast out fear, especially the fear of death. Christ's resurrection shows that we need not fear death, and God's application of Christ's life to us shows His love for us, in that we are "pre-resurrected", if you will, in Him.

Another way to look at it is Paul's insistence that the Law, though good, brings death, because it highlights the fact that we deserve death. That's justice. The death of Christ highlights God's mercy. The resurrection of Christ highlights our future, which is the hope of our own resurrection.

Derf said:

I think you're looking for the answer, "God is just" for why someone wouldn't be in heaven. But "God is loving" is an alternate option.

I can see the point you're making, that the justice of God must be evident before people will stop sinning, but I'm just not convinced that is the issue.

[Heb 2:15 KJV] 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Bondage to what? I think it's talking about the bondage to sin. If we are in bondage to sin because of the fear of death, then perfect love is what would cast out that fear, most notably by overcoming death. (A simple example of this is that if we fear death from starvation, we might over-indulge, resulting in gluttony.)

So, going back to the premise that God must display His justice in order for people not to sin, He has already displayed His justice to every man in the curse of death that befalls every man. But that wasn't enough to cast out fear, especially the fear of death. Christ's resurrection shows that we need not fear death, and God's application of Christ's life to us shows His love for us, in that we are "pre-resurrected", if you will, in Him.

Another way to look at it is Paul's insistence that the Law, though good, brings death, because it highlights the fact that we deserve death. That's justice. The death of Christ highlights God's mercy. The resurrection of Christ highlights our future, which is the hope of our own resurrection.

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No, I'm not looking for any specific answer. I'm asking you to contemplate what you would think over an eternity if someone very close to you doesn't end up in heaven and you truly believe should be there, or in the obverse, that someone you believe shouldn't be there is there.

I ask the same things of myself. If I saw Idi Amin or some other mass murderer walking around in heaven what would I think? It's always a possibility that it might shake my trust in God at some point in eternity if He hadn't provided evidence that the mass murderer had truly repented and accepted the sacrifice of Jesus. The same with someone who I truly believed should be in heaven.

To me, that is why God must prove His justice to the entire universe.

Gary K said:

No, I'm not looking for any specific answer. I'm asking you to contemplate what you would think over an eternity if someone very close to you doesn't end up in heaven and you truly believe should be there, or in the obverse, that someone you believe shouldn't be there is there.

I ask the same things of myself. If I saw Idi Amin or some other mass murderer walking around in heaven what would I think? It's always a possibility that it might shake my trust in God at some point in eternity if He hadn't provided evidence that the mass murderer had truly repented and accepted the sacrifice of Jesus. The same with someone who I truly believed should be in heaven.

To me, that is why God must prove His justice to the entire universe.

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What is the requirement for our entry into heaven? Isn’t it trusting in God, in its most basic form? But now you’re saying God has to prove Himself to us? That’s the opposite of faith.

Abraham didn’t require that God prove he could raise Isaac from the dead before he raised the knife—he trusted God could do so.

Adam and Eve did not trust what God said, so they ate the fruit He told them not to. They required that God prove His justice.

You tell me which is the more heavenly attitude.

Derf said:

What is the requirement for our entry into heaven? Isn’t it trusting in God, in its most basic form? But now you’re saying God has to prove Himself to us? That’s the opposite of faith.

Abraham didn’t require that God prove he could raise Isaac from the dead before he raised the knife—he trusted God could do so.

Adam and Eve did not trust what God said, so they ate the fruit He told them not to. They required that God prove His justice.

You tell me which is the more heavenly attitude.

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How many times did Abraham's faith fail before he passed the test of faith? We also don't know if Abraham's faith ever failed afterwards. Did he ever sin afterwards? Whatever is not of faith is sin. That's a Biblical definition of sin. Do you never sin? I can't say that's true of me so I must admit that my faith is not perfect.

According to the Biblical narrative Adam and Eve's failure was not a test of God's justice. From everything I've read in the Bible theirs was a failure of trust in God. It was a failure of their faith. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. And their faith failed while they were sinless. Does that not open the door to sinning because of lack of faith even while not sinful? The devil's story is the same. He turned sinful while perfect. It's the mystery of iniquity.

Yes, we must trust God to get to heaven. But does that say our faith is always perfect, that we never fail of trusting God? Look at Elijah's lapse into fear after his Mount Carmel experience. How could any human being's faith fail immediately after that? I'm not knocking Elijah. I've had failures of faith after big time spiritual experiences too.

We must live an eternity without sin so the way I see things is that God must remove all possibility of doubt or someone, somewhere, sometime, under some circumstance will make the same choice Adam and Eve, the devil, and one third of the angels made.

Gary K said:

How many times did Abraham's faith fail before he passed the test of faith? We also don't know if Abraham's faith ever failed afterwards. Did he ever sin afterwards? Whatever is not of faith is sin. That's a Biblical definition of sin. Do you never sin? I can't say that's true of me so I must admit that my faith is not perfect.

According to the Biblical narrative Adam and Eve's failure was not a test of God's justice. From everything I've read in the Bible theirs was a failure of trust in God. It was a failure of their faith. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. And their faith failed while they were sinless. Does that not open the door to sinning because of lack of faith even while not sinful? The devil's story is the same. He turned sinful while perfect. It's the mystery of iniquity.

Yes, we must trust God to get to heaven. But does that say our faith is always perfect, that we never fail of trusting God? Look at Elijah's lapse into fear after his Mount Carmel experience. How could any human being's faith fail immediately after that? I'm not knocking Elijah. I've had failures of faith after big time spiritual experiences too.

We must live an eternity without sin so the way I see things is that God must remove all possibility of doubt or someone, somewhere, sometime, under some circumstance will make the same choice Adam and Eve, the devil, and one third of the angels made.

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I appreciate that you are saying God will show us His justice to teach us to trust Him—too many people think God will *poof* away our bad traits.

And I agree that Adam and Eve’s experience was not intended to be a test of God’s justice, but of their faith. In exactly the same way, God tests our faith, not by showing us justice, but sometimes by allowing us to experience injustice—like all Christian martyrs—for a time. They trusted God even unto death, with only a hope of future justice. Will their faith be rewarded? Yes, but not by God making everything turn out like we think it should—only as He thinks it should. Thus, unless we already trust God to be just, His display of justice is likely not going to be understood as just.

Derf said:

I appreciate that you are saying God will show us His justice to teach us to trust Him—too many people think God will *poof* away our bad traits.

And I agree that Adam and Eve’s experience was not intended to be a test of God’s justice, but of their faith. In exactly the same way, God tests our faith, not by showing us justice, but sometimes by allowing us to experience injustice—like all Christian martyrs—for a time. They trusted God even unto death, with only a hope of future justice. Will their faith be rewarded? Yes, but Toby God making everything turn out like we think it should—only as He thinks it should. Thus, unless we already trust God to be just, His display of justice is likely not going to be understood as just.

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Excellent.

The entire plan of salvation is about God proving Himself innocent of the odious charges the greatest con man in the universe, the devil, has made against God. They are so convincing that one third of the angels living in a sinless universe bought into them. The devil accused God of being like himself, cruel, selfish, a liar, etc... and cast himself as the one who really loved them.

God could have just wiped him out but then it would have appeared that the devil had been correct in his lies about God. Killing the devil then would have just exacerbated God's problem as being seen as the way the devil described Him. So He set out on a twofold plan. 1. To prove Himself innocent of the charges. 2. To give the devil enough rope to hang himself by demonstrating just who he really is.

Both reasons are why Jesus came here to live a life that perfectly demonstrated His Father's character. Remember Jesus telling Thomas "If you have seen me you have seen the Father"? He also came here to expose the character of the devil. That's why He allowed Himself to be murdered at the instigation of the devil. In doing so He exposed the base character of the devil.

The last part of the devil's charges against God is that no one can keep His law because it is unjust and arbitrary. That's why you and I and everyone else are still here. God will have a people who will fully keep His law through His grace and power before He puts an end to sin, and he will allow the devil to display his coercive power over his followers. We are seeing the beginnings of this in our world today. We can see this in the unprecedented levels of evil being displayed around us.

I hope this will show you a picture of the love of God for us. The extents to which God has gone to save us.

My spell check did me a disservice in my last post. That should have been "Will their faith be rewarded? Yes, but not by God making everything turn out like we think it should—only as He thinks it should." I edited the post.

Gary K said:

The entire plan of salvation is about God proving Himself innocent of the odious charges the greatest con man in the universe, the devil, has made against God. They are so convincing that one third of the angels living in a sinless universe bought into them. The devil accused God of being like himself, cruel, selfish, a liar, etc... and cast himself as the one who really loved them.

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Ok. I see that your judge and jury are the angels, while Satan is the adversary, as we know, accusing God. I'm not sure if the angels had that kind of choice. They might have, but we don't know that. Some think Satan was one of three archangels, and by extrapolation, he had 1/3rd of the angels under his command.

Gary K said:

God could have just wiped him out but then it would have appeared that the devil had been correct in his lies about God. Killing the devil then would have just exacerbated God's problem as being seen as the way the devil described Him. So He set out on a twofold plan. 1. To prove Himself innocent of the charges. 2. To give the devil enough rope to hang himself by demonstrating just who he really is.

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I doubt that God is really all that concerned about proving Satan's character. Eventually He still throws him into the lake of fire. Do you really think God was unable to think up a plan to righteously judge Satan prior to the havoc he's caused from the beginning of the human race?

Gary K said:

The last part of the devil's charges against God is that no one can keep His law because it is unjust and arbitrary. That's why you and I and everyone else are still here. God will have a people who will fully keep His law through His grace and power before He puts an end to sin, and he will allow the devil to display his coercive power over his followers. We are seeing the beginnings of this in our world today. We can see this in the unprecedented levels of evil being displayed around us.

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I don't see God's law as unkeepable because it is unjust and arbitrary, but because it is hard to keep when sinful flesh is still around.

I have read, from an Adventist perspective, the thousand years will be in heaven, which will be a time when all the saved will get to see who was saved and who wasn't, and no one will ultimately object at the end of that thousand years to God's decision of who was saved and who wasn't. There is to ensure that there will never again be another rebellion against God.

SavedSinner777 said:

I have read, from an Adventist perspective, the thousand years will be in heaven, which will be a time when all the saved will get to see who was saved and who wasn't, and no one will ultimately object at the end of that thousand years to God's decision of who was saved and who wasn't. There is to ensure that there will never again be another rebellion against God.

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I think that's another way of say "God's will be done", but Jesus added "on earth as it is in heaven", which seems to be a purpose of God on earth--that no one ever rebels against God anywhere, eventually.

Derf said:

I think that's another way of say "God's will be done", but Jesus added "on earth as it is in heaven", which seems to be a purpose of God on earth--that no one ever rebels against God anywhere, eventually.

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After the thousand years in heaven, there will be a paradise earth for eternity.

SavedSinner777 said:

After the thousand years in heaven, there will be a paradise earth for eternity.

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Do you think Rev 20:4 is talking about thrones in heaven, then? If so, who are they judging in heaven, if God's will is already being done in heaven?

Derf said:

Do you think Rev 20:4 is talking about thrones in heaven, then? If so, who are they judging in heaven, if God's will is already being done in heaven?

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All evil has not yet been formally judged. That will only happen after the millennium. All the saved will use that time to clear up in their own minds the history of what took place on earth and verify that God has truly been just in all things. Its the verification of the goodness, honesty, and righteousness of God.

Sorry I never got back to you on your last post. I have to say I'm really glad to see you studying the way you obviously are. Good on ya mate.

Gary K said:

All evil has not yet been formally judged. That will only happen after the millennium. All the saved will use that time to clear up in their own minds the history of what took place on earth and verify that God has truly been just in all things. Its the verification of the goodness, honesty, and righteousness of God.

Sorry I never got back to you on your last post. I have to say I'm really glad to see you studying the way you obviously are. Good on ya mate.

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If some of the saved are not yet clear in their minds, surely they wouldn't be judging/reigning with Christ, would they?

Derf said:

If some of the saved are not yet clear in their minds, surely they wouldn't be judging/reigning with Christ, would they?

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I really hadn't understood your objection until right now. It's the timing of the Millennium for you. You believe there is a second chance for the lost to be saved. The problem with that is that there is zero evidence for that. The one previous time in human history in which a time of probation was allotted for sinners to repent and join the righteous was at the flood. God allowed a probation time of 120 years and after that no on could change their minds so only the eight were saved who willingly went into yhe ark when God told them to.

That is where we draw our position from. For God to be just He can't play favorites and give those at the end of time more chances than He gave the antedeluvians. All things must be equal or God is not just.

BobRyan said:

Only two groups will exist at the end -- 1. the save and 2. the lost. How much detail info the saved have will not be a problem for them unless they happen to be living right at the end time and are snookered by the devil pulling off a counterfeit second coming.

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Do you think there will be some of the saved on earth at the end of the millennium?

Derf said:

Do you think there will be some of the saved on earth at the end of the millennium?

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Let's look at that idea. The devil is held incommunicado for a thousand years so that he has no one to tempt and you're asking if there are still any humans alive on earth at the end of one thousand years?

Gary K said:

Let's look at that idea. The devil is held incommunicado for a thousand years so that he has no one to tempt and you're asking if there are still any humans alive on earth at the end of one thousand years?

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My question was whether any of the saved were on the earth at "the end", since @BobRyan said there were only going to be two types at the end, saved and unsaved, and he was agreeing with @reddogs that the saved would be in heaven for the 1000 years before the end.