New Evangelical Lutheran Bishop Breaks Ground.

ximmix

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That's not how it works.
Yes, Jesus says this about forgiving repeat offenses and yes I agree
Luke 17:3-4


We all fail, probably all of us daily, and yes, God can forgive, every single time there's a failure, do you mean it, do you repent, do you try to avoid it in the future?

Say we have 2 homosexuals, that want to come to Christ.
Okay..

Both of them are in a homosexual relationship and engage in sodomy regularly. They hear about Jesus and the Gospel and want to know Jesus and be forgiven of their sins.. great!

One of them breaks off their relationship with their boyfriend and stops engaging in the homosexual lifestyle, he regrets ever having been involved with it, knowing it's sin and doesn't want to go back to it.
However he still fails, sometimes catching himself thinking about sex with a man again, or even finding himself on a gay inappropriate content website before stopping himself thinking what am I doing here? closing the site, and praying for forgiveness. This man is in repentance, he fails sometimes but he is trying to sanctify himself and stop this sin, maybe he takes extra steps, avoiding his past friends who would guide him back into that sin, putting blockers on his web browser to keep him away from inappropriate content, seeking Godly council with his pastor and his brothers at church, maybe they can help him with accountability, etc.

The other one never breaks off his relationship, continues having sodomy, basically, he hasn't changed at all. How can you say he's repenting when he's staying in a sinful relationship, that shows willingness to continue in sin, and plans for future sins. That's not repentance.

and it's not just Homosexuality, it can be a man who is an alcoholic, seeks Jesus to get out of alcoholism, but doesn't dump all his alcohol down the drain, he keeps it in the liquor cabinet, ready to use. Is that repentance? When he keeps it available? No, that's a plan to sin again in the future.

True repentance is always going to result in lifestyle changes.

I undestand that you view homosexuality as a sin, and that they should deny a huge part of who they are to be saved. But your last sentence seems to be the answer to my question, you have never repented the same sin more than once. If you had, that wouldn't be true repentance according to you.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Do you mean that unrepentant sin is ok but celebrated sin is not?

No, celebrated sin is unrepentant sin. When one repents of sin they are acknowledging that it is wrong and they have decided to strive to turn away from it.
 
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ximmix

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No, celebrated sin is unrepentant sin. When one repents of sin they are acknowledging that it is wrong and they have decided to strive to turn away from it.

Ok, so your destinction between unrepented sin and celebrated sin is unnecessary.
 
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Jamdoc

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Do you mean that unrepentant sin is ok but celebrated sin is not?

Nope, unrepentant sin usually requires church discipline and may result in them being unwelcome back at Church.
1 Corinthians 5 addresses a situation like that, where the Apostle Paul writes the Church at Corinth about a member of the church who is having sex with his mother.
Paul not only tells them to stop fellowshipping with this man, but kick him out of the church and "deliver him unto Satan" so that he might die, if that's the only way to stop his sinning, hoping that his soul will still be saved, in the event that he was saved but just severely backslid.
 
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Jamdoc

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Ok, so your destinction between unrepented sin and celebrated sin is unnecessary.

There is a distinction.
You might have an unrepentant sinner coming to visit your church, that's okay, you're trying to reach that person and convince them that their sin is wrong and that they need Jesus and to repent.
It might not happen the first time.

CELEBRATING Sin on the other hand, you aren't even trying to reach them to convince them to repent, you've just decided to embrace their sin, put up a pride flag and let them go on in unrepentant sin while proclaiming how brave and beautiful they are.

it is in other words, celebrating unrepentant sin.
 
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ximmix

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Ceallaigh

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Ok, so your destinction between unrepented sin and celebrated sin is unnecessary.

Celebrating sin is condoning and encouraging it. By condoning and celebrating sin, those who do so basically become accomplices to that sin. In this case it's also being rewarded.

There was a well known preacher who married a woman who used to be a inappropriate content star before becoming a Christian. When the preacher died, she took over his ministry. What she was in the past didn't matter, because she had repented of it. If she had continued to work in the inappropriate content industry while operating a Christian ministry, that would be a serious problem. If the congregation of that ministry supported her being a inappropriate content star, that also would be a serious problem. If they proudly announced that she was the first inappropriate content star Christian minister, that would be a serious problem.
 
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Jamdoc

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This seems very contradictory to me.

How so?
Say you want to lose weight. So you start an exercise routine. You go for a few days but then slip up and fail to go one day because you're too sore, you regret it, then go back to it the next day, another few days, you miss a day again.

There's effort being made with failures along the way.
There's still positive change, even with those failures. Eventually you'll fail less and less and you'll get in better shape as long as you keep trying and really wanting to lose that weight.

That's different than you say you want to lose weight.. but don't change your diet at all, and don't change your exercise habits at all.
 
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ximmix

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How so?
Say you want to lose weight. So you start an exercise routine. You go for a few days but then slip up and fail to go one day because you're too sore, you regret it, then go back to it the next day, another few days, you miss a day again.

There's effort being made with failures along the way.
There's still positive change, even with those failures. Eventually you'll fail less and less and you'll get in better shape as long as you keep trying and really wanting to lose that weight.

That's different than you say you want to lose weight.. but don't change your diet at all, and don't change your exercise habits at all.

Ok.
 
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Belk

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Except the bible outright calls Homosexuality sin.
the bible never says it's sin to do inter"racial" marriage.

Can you try dealing with the underlying issue or is repeating your claim over and over going to be it?
 
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Halbhh

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It is a good thing Christians tell us how much they love LGBT people. Otherwise the outpouring of negativity every time they are mentioned would sure look a lot like hate.


Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.
1 John 4:20 If anyone says, "I love God," but hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

It's for real, see.
 
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Halbhh

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The difference here is there's pride and celebration of sin.
No doubt that can happen, and not only for those unlike us.... We have endless examples of pastors doing wrongs partly because there are so many pastors, and some will do wrongs sometimes. Peter did a famous wrong (Galatians chapter 2), even after he was repeatedly led in the spirit, had miracles worked through him, and brought many to the gospel. When someone does a serious wrong after being a believer (all of us at some point, after being a believer, including pastors) then we need to follow the instructions in 1rst John chapter 1.
 
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ViaCrucis

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This the Episcopal church in my neighborhood. It used to be a Christian flag.

KyOYU0s.png

My church doesn't have a flagpole outside to hoist any flags.

But it does have an altar where the Holy Eucharist is celebrated, and a pulpit from which the Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ is preached.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Jamdoc

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Can you try dealing with the underlying issue or is repeating your claim over and over going to be it?

The underlying issue that I believe in the bible?
No I'm not going to "deal with it"
I'd much rather deal with the fact that you don't, because believe in it or not you're going to have to make an account for everything you've done with God someday.
 
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Belk

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The underlying issue that I believe in the bible?
No I'm not going to "deal with it"
I'd much rather deal with the fact that you don't, because believe in it or not you're going to have to make an account for everything you've done with God someday.

No, the underlying issue that every Christian believes the bible yet they still manage to get things wrong. Therefore it is possible that you might be wrong in your understanding of the bible. That underlying issue.
 
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Hazelelponi

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I see no reason to make it a sin

Public Service Announcement:
You'll have to follow the above link to see your exact statement to which I'm replying...

But here's the issue - "we" don't "make" anything a sin. God does... we simply follow His guidance/rules for how to conduct ourselves as His Church.

Most sins aren't particularly horrible to the world's way of thinking. Likely haven't ever been. That doesn't change what God declares to be sin, however.

When it comes to the LGBTQ+ crowd, they aren't bad people, however, they are immersed in lifestyles that prove they are yet to have found Christ yet, if they are unrepentant...

Any one of them can be saved, every one of them should be treated with kindness regardless of whether they want to be saved or not...

But there are listed, in Scripture which we hold to be inerrant, basic guidelines of who can hold various offices in our churches, and anyone living in open unrepentant sin is disqualified.. anyone.

Churches who call themselves Christian are putting Christians who hold Scripture to be inerrant in a crisis the entire church will one day have to figure out - namely, what are we supposed to do with these people when or if they come to Christ in Truth?

What do we do when they realize after they are married in a church under false assumptions of what sin actually is, now the parents of 3 adoptive children, when they realize the truth of Christ?

I can't even begin to demonstrate how destructive this will end up being.... if/when these people finally come to Christ...

All because no one had the guts to speak to them about the truth of God's word, and pretended their sin is a thing condoned by God.

What the world does isn't our problem - but what the church does in God's name? That is ..

It's all well and good until you realize there really is a God who does have a tendency to make Himself known to the periodic sinner... and He doesn't say things like "sin is nothing, go right ahead"...
 
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Paulos23

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Public Service Announcement:
You'll have to follow the above link to see your exact statement to which I'm replying...

But here's the issue - "we" don't "make" anything a sin. God does... we simply follow His guidance/rules for how to conduct ourselves as His Church.

Most sins aren't particularly horrible to the world's way of thinking. Likely haven't ever been. That doesn't change what God declares to be sin, however.

When it comes to the LGBTQ+ crowd, they aren't bad people, however, they are immersed in lifestyles that prove they are yet to have found Christ yet, if they are unrepentant...

Any one of them can be saved, every one of them should be treated with kindness regardless of whether they want to be saved or not...

But there are listed, in Scripture which we hold to be inerrant, basic guidelines of who can hold various offices in our churches, and anyone living in open unrepentant sin is disqualified.. anyone.

Churches who call themselves Christian are putting Christians who hold Scripture to be inerrant in a crisis the entire church will one day have to figure out - namely, what are we supposed to do with these people when or if they come to Christ in Truth?

What do we do when they realize after they are married in a church under false assumptions of what sin actually is, now the parents of 3 adoptive children, when they realize the truth of Christ?

I can't even begin to demonstrate how destructive this will end up being.... if/when these people finally come to Christ...

All because no one had the guts to speak to them about the truth of God's word, and pretended their sin is a thing condoned by God.

What the world does isn't our problem - but what the church does in God's name? That is ..

It's all well and good until you realize there really is a God who does have a tendency to make Himself known to the periodic sinner... and He doesn't say things like "sin is nothing, go right ahead"...

The problem is that Christians going around declaring what people are as sin is not winning any converts, and it making Christians look like jerks. The fact it took you a long post to say, "We don't hate the people, we hate the sin, and you are all going to hell anyway." shows to me you don't get it either. I don't care what happens in the church, I see what is going on outside it.

The act of going up to people and declaring them sinners is a horrible conversion tactic, and one I will keep saying no to.

They are people, they are human, and they deserve some kindness and love instead of condemnation. Some Christians get this, I wish the rest did as well.
 
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