Lake of Fire

The Encyclopaedia Judaica has been a thorn in the side of many a Christian purposely led away by a gentile church.

Butch5 said:

That's because you don't accept any evidence that doesn't agree with what you believe.

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Oooh! That sounds a lot like you.

Butch5 said:

Posting those sources doesn't tell me what Jesus said.

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That's because only the first sentence was addressed to that.

It simply gives me the thought s of men. I said the wicked are destroyed. You said not according to Jesus. Then you posted info from your sources. Here are the words of Jesus,
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (Lk. 13:2-3 KJV)
It seems Jesus believes sinner who don't repent will perish, not burn in hell for eternity.
I'll post the words of John.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Jn. 3:16 KJV)
He sent His Son so that those who believe would not perish. He didn't say so they wouldn't burn in hell forever.
Now, tell me how Jesus and John are wrong and your sources are correct.

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Did the Galileans perish completely out of existence or did they only die when a tower fell on them?
The word translated "perish" in that verse is apollumi.
That word is used for all of these in the NT.
ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 79%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

Der Alte said:

That's because only the first sentence was addressed to that.

Did the Galileans perish completely out of existence or did they only die when a tower fell on them?
The word translated "perish" in that verse is apollumi.
That word is used for all of these in the NT.
ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 79%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

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35 Definitions for one word. Sure looks to me that someone is trying to make it fit their theology.

Yes, they perished. Their only hope is in the resurrection. Other than that they are dead.

mkgal1 said:

If this phrase means "hell" then why didn't Jesus or Paul (or any of the disciples) ever teach that the Lake of Fire is a place of everlasting punishment in the afterlife? You'd expect that to be their main focus if that were the case - and we'd have that teaching recorded for us in the Scripture.....but I don't see it.

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You can't limit their usages to only one metaphor for hell. Jesus uses the metaphor of an outer place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The lake of fire and this other comparison merely point to the suffering of unbelieving people who will be separated from God and all the things and people they depended on for meaning in life. They are figures of speech that your English teachers tried to teach you about.

Butch5 said:

35 Definitions for one word. Sure looks to me that someone is trying to make it fit their theology.
Yes, they perished. Their only hope is in the resurrection. Other than that they are dead.

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Unlike heterodox folks, like yourself, accredited scholars don't make up definitions, they read historical manuscripts and determine what words mean by how they are used. Here is the complete definition of "apollumi" from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich [BDAG] one of, if not the, most highly accredited Greek lexicons currently available. Since you seem to be totally unaware how lexicons are compiled I have highlighted in blue, other than the scriptures, the historical resources the authors consulted.

MMXX said:

It was a canned reply that's already been posted umpteen times.

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I'm pretty sure I saw it on another thread some years ago.

Der Alte said:

Unlike heterodox folks, like yourself, accredited scholars don't make up definitions, they read historical manuscripts and determine what words mean by how they are used. Here is the complete definition of "apollumi" from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich [BDAG] one of, if not the, most highly accredited Greek lexicons currently available. Since you seem to be totally unaware how lexicons are compiled I have highlighted in blue, other than the scriptures, the historical resources the authors consulted.

ἀπόλλυμι [apollumi] for its conjug. s. B-D-F §101 (s.v. ὄλλυμι); W-S. §14, 18; Rob. 317; fut. ἀπολέσω Hs 8, 7, 5; Att. ἀπολῶ 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14; ParJer 1:1, 8); 1 aor. ἀπώλεσα; 1 pf. ἀπολώλεκα. Mid.: fut. ἀπολοῦμαι Lk 13:3; 2 aor. ἀπωλόμην; the 2 pf. ἀπόλωλα functions as a pf. mid.; ptc. ἀπολωλώς (Hom.+).
① to cause or experience destructionⓐ act. ruin, destroy
α. of pers. (Sir 10:3) Mk 1:24; Lk 4:34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μὴ ἐκεῖνον ἀπόλλυε do not bring about his ruin ton 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of Ro 14:15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4; Esth 9:6 v.l.; 1 Macc 2:37; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 122; Mel., P. 84, 635 [Ch.] τὸν ἐχθρόν σου) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίον Mt 2:13; Jesus 12:14; 27:20; Mk 3:6; 11:18; Lk 19:47; B 12:5; the wicked tenants κακοὺς κακῶς ἀ. (s. κακός 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41. τοὺς γεωργούς Mk 12:9; Lk 20:16; τ. φονεῖς Mt 22:7; τ. μὴ πιστεύσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; πάντας Lk 17:27, 29. W. σῶσαι (like Charito 2, 8,1) Js 4:12: H9, 3, 4. eternal death (Herm. Wr. 4, 7; Tat. 11:2 ἀπώλεσεν ἡμᾶς τὸ αὐτέξουσιον) ψυχὴν κ. σῶμα ἀ. ἐν γεέννῃ Mt 10:28; ψυχήν B 20:1; τ. ψυχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cp. Sir 20:22).
β. w. impers. obj. ἀ. τ. σοφίαν τ. σοφῶν destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14). ἀ. τ. διάνοιαν destroy the understanding Hm 11:1 (cp. Just., D. 93, 1 τὰς φυσικὰς ἐννοίας).γ. without obj. J 10:10.
ⓑ mid. perish, be ruined
α. of pers. perish, die (schol. on Nicander, Ther. 188 ἀπόλλυται ὁ ἀνήρ=the man dies υσθαι) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1f. As a cry of anguish ἀπολλύμεθα we are perishing! (Epict. 2, 19, 16 [in a storm-tossed vessel]; PPetr II, 4 [1], 4f νυνὶ δὲ ἀπολλύμεθα) Mt 8:25; Mk 4:38; Lk 8:24 (Arrian, Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ἐν μαχαίρῃ ἀ. die by the sword Mt 26:52. λιμῷ of hunger (Ezk 34:29) Lk 15:17. τῇ ἀντιλογίᾳ τοῦ Κόρε Jd 11c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted ; cp. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). ὑπό τινος (Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13 [7], 12) ὑπὸ τ. ὄφεων killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9; cp. vs. 10. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50. Of individuals (Lev 23:30) Ac 5:37; 2 Pt 3:9; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20).—Esp. of eternal death (cp. Ps 9:6f; 36:20; 67:3; 72:27; 82:18; 91:10; Is 41:11) J 3:16; 17:12. ἀπολέσθαι εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 ἡμεῖς ἀπολλύμενοι τὸν αἰῶνα). ἀνόμως ἀ. Ro 2:12; μωρῶς ἀ. IEph 17:2 (cp. ἀσκόπως Just., D. 8, 4); ἐν καυχήσει because of boasting ITr 4:1; cp. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11; 15:18; 2 Cl 17:1.—οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι (opp. οἱ σῳζόμενοι, as in Plut., Mor. 469d) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18; 2 Cor 2:15; 4:3; 2 Th 2:10; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this τὸ ἀπολωλός Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:10 v.l.—Ezk 34:4, 16). τὰ ἀπολλύμενα 2 Cl 2:7 (cp. SIG 417, 9 τὰ τε ἀπολωλότα ἐκ τ. ἱεροῦ ἀνέσωσαν). S. also 3b end.
β. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined (Jos., Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem; Tat. 17, 2 πάθος … ἀπολλύμενον) of bursting wineskins Mt 9:17; Mk 2:22; Lk 5:37; fading beauty Js 1:11; transitory beauty of gold
1 Pt 1:7. AcPl Ha 2, 24; [χρυσὸς]| γὰρ ἀπόλλυται 9:8f; passing splendor Rv 18:14 (w. ἀπό as Jer 10:11; Da 7:17). Of earthly food J 6:27; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5; σαρκὸς ἀπολλυμένης AcPlCor 2:15. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6). μὴ … τὸ μνημόσυνον [ὑμῶν]| ἀπόλιτε (read ἀπόληται) AcPl Ha 1, 22f.
② to fail to obtain what one expects or anticipates, lose out on, lose (X., Pla.+; PPetr III, 51, 5; POxy 743, 23; PFay 111, 3ff; Sir 6:3; 9:6; 27:16 al.; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14; Tat. 8, τὸν ἐρώμενον; 15, 1) τ. μισθόν lose the reward Mt 10:42; Mk 9:41; Hs 5, 6, 7. δραχμήν (Dio Chrys. 70 [20], 25) Lk 15:8f; ἀ. ἃ ἠργασάμεθα lose what we have worked for 2J 8. διαθήκην B 4:7, 8. τὴν ζωὴν τ. ἀνθρώπων Hm 2:1; cp. Hs 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2f and 5. τὴν ἐλπίδα m 5, 1, 7.
③ to lose someth. that one already has or be separated from a normal connection, lose, be lost
ⓐ act. w. colloq. flavor ἵνα πᾶν ὃ δέδωκέν μοι μή ἀπολέσω ἐξ αὐτοῦ that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 (B-D-F §466, 3 on Semitic assoc.; Rob. 437; 753).—ἀ. τὴν ψυχήν (cp. Sir 20:22) lose one’s life Mt 10:39; 16:25; Mk 8:35; Lk 9:24; 17:33; cp. J 12:25. For this ἀ. ἑαυτόν lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus [VII b.c.], Fgm. 8 Diehl2 lines 11–14: ‘One who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
ⓑ mid. (Antiphon: Diels, Vorsokrat. 87, Fgm. 54 ἀπολόμενον ἀργύριον; X., Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3; Tat. 9, 2) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18; Ac 27:34; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29f; remnants of food J 6:12. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.— Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6; 15:24; Lk 15:4, 6; B 5:12 (cp. Jer 27:6; Ezk 34:4; Ps 118:176). Of a lost son Lk 15:24 (Artem. 4, 33 ἡ γυνὴ … τ. υἱὸν ἀπώλεσε καὶ … εὗρεν αὐτόν); of humanity in general ἀπολλύμενος ἐζητήθη ἵνα ζωοποιηθῇ διὰ τῆς υἱοθεσίας when lost, humanity was sought, so that it might regain life through acceptance into sonship AcPlCor 2:8 (cp. 1bα.—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). ἀ. θεῷ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4 (cod. A for ἀπέθανον).—B. 758. DELG s.v. ὄλλυμι. M-M. TW.[1]
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[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000).
Link to 1952 edition. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Gingrich & Danker (3rd ed., pp. 115–116). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

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Dude, if you need 35 definitions for one word, you're clearly using your theology to define the word. What English word has 35 definitions?

I'm well aware of how lexicons are made. Men with certain presuppositions and axioms read these words to see how they are used to determine what they mean. We can see this with their understanding of aionios which they say means everlasting, but which Jesus said would end. How something that is everlasting ends is beyond me. I guess I have to decide which one I want to go with Jesus or those men.

It's interesting though that the number one definition is to destroy and to kill follows quickly behind it.

Michael Collum said:

I'm pretty sure I saw it on another thread some years ago.

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It gets posted in most any thread about hell.

Bruce Leiter said:

You can't limit their usages to only one metaphor for hell. Jesus uses the metaphor of an outer place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The lake of fire and this other comparison merely point to the suffering of unbelieving people who will be separated from God and all the things and people they depended on for meaning in life. They are figures of speech that your English teachers tried to teach you about.

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Jesus used similar language as the OT prophets and quoted them regarding what they said before Babylon sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the temple, because Rome was going sack Jerusalem and destroy the temple. Part of Jesus' mission was to be Israel's last prophet and pronounce national judgements.

Der Alte said:

Unlike heterodox folks, like yourself

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Actually his view is closer to being Orthodox.

Der Alte said:

accredited scholars don't make up definitions, they read historical manuscripts and determine what words mean by how they are used.

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The same applies to accredited scholars who determine what words mean differently than the ones you prefer.

Butch5 said:

Dude, if you need 35 definitions for one word, you're clearly using your theology to define the word. What English word has 35 definitions?

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It is what it is whether you like or or not! Your biased, unsupported opinions are in this case irrelevant.

I'm well aware of how lexicons are made. Men with certain presuppositions and axioms read these words to see how they are used to determine what they mean. We can see this with their understanding of aionios which they say means everlasting, but which Jesus said would end. How something that is everlasting ends is beyond me. I guess I have to decide which one I want to go with Jesus or those men.

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Evidently you do not know and apparently have no interest in finding out how lexicons are compiled. If your opinion is correct some learned heretical UR "scholar" long ago should have compiled an "accurate" lexicon supported with ample historical references as the BDAG. It hasn't been done because it can't be done.
You seem familiar with the one verse where Jesus said the "the end of the aion" but totally ignore the ten verses where Jesus described/defined aionios as eternal, endless etc. Are you familiar with the figure of speech term "hyperbole?"

It's interesting though that the number one definition is to destroy and to kill follows quickly behind it.

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Pity in typical heterodox fashion you did NOT read down where destroy and kill were explained.
None of the usages equate to the end of the world destruction annihilationists talk about.

Der Alte said:

Are you familiar with the figure of speech term "hyperbole?"

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Sometimes your posts go on forever.

Der Alte said:

It is what it is whether you like or or not! Your biased, unsupported opinions are in this case irrelevant.

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As are yours. Just because you put these sources on a pedestal doesn't mean everyone else does.

Evidently you do not know and apparently have no interest in finding out how lexicons are compiled. If your opinion is correct some learned heretical UR "scholar" long ago should have compiled an "accurate" lexicon supported with ample historical references as the BDAG. It hasn't been done because it can't be done.
You seem familiar with the one verse where Jesus said the "the end of the aion" but totally ignore the ten verses where Jesus described/defined aionios as eternal, endless etc. Are you familiar with the figure of speech term "hyperbole?"

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I've shown you time and time again, that aion doesn't mean eternal. But, as usual you don't accept anything that doesn't agree with you. As we see you don't even accept Jesus' words where He said the aion would end. The apostles spoke of the end of the aion. Paul spoke of the end of the aion. But, this doesn't agree with your theology so you reject their words. There aren't any verses where Jesus defined aion as eternal. That's just you imposing your belief onto the passage.

I've taken you own passages and shown you that aion does not mean eternal.

Pity in typical heterodox fashion you did NOT read down where destroy and kill were explained.

β. w. impers. obj. ἀ. τ. σοφίαν τ. σοφῶν destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14). ἀ. τ. διάνοιαν destroy the understanding Hm 11:1 (cp. Just., D. 93, 1 τὰς φυσικὰς ἐννοίας).γ. without obj. J 10:10.
ⓑ mid. perish, be ruined
α. of pers. perish, die (schol. on Nicander, Ther. 188 ἀπόλλυται ὁ ἀνήρ=the man dies υσθαι) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1f. As a cry of anguish ἀπολλύμεθα we are perishing! (Epict. 2, 19, 16 [in a storm-tossed vessel];​

None of the usages equate to the end of the world destruction annihilationists talk about.

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Where it was explained? Do you need the words destroy and kill explained for you? They are pretty simple words to understand.

However, once again, I 'm going to show you, with your own incontrovertible source, that the dead don't live on after death. They are destroyed.

IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL (late Hebrew, "hasharat ha-nefesh"; "ḥayye 'olam"):
By: Kaufmann Kohler
Table of Contents

• Hellenistic View.
• Immortality of Martyrs.
• In Jewish Philosophy.

The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture. As long as the soul was conceived to be merely a breath ("nefesh"; "neshamah"; comp. "anima"), and inseparably connected, if not identified, with the life-blood (Gen. ix. 4, comp. iv. 11; Lev. xvii. 11; see Soul), no real substance could be ascribed to it. As soon as the spirit or breath of God ("nishmat" or "ruaḥ ḥayyim"), which was believed to keep body and soul together, both in man and in beast (Gen. ii. 7, vi. 17, vii. 22; Job xxvii. 3), is taken away (Ps. cxlvi. 4) or returns to God (Eccl. xii. 7; Job xxxiv. 14), the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness (Job xiv. 21; Ps. vi. 6 [A. V. 5], cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 18; Eccl. ix. 5, 10). The belief in a continuous life of the soul, which underlies primitive Ancestor Worship and the rites of necromancy, practised also in ancient Israel (I Sam. xxviii. 13 et seq.; Isa. viii. 19; see Necromancy), was discouraged and suppressed by prophet and lawgiver as antagonistic to the belief in Yhwh, the God of life, the Ruler of heaven and earth, whose reign was not extended over Sheol until post-exilic times (Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, cxxxix. 8).

IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL - JewishEncyclopedia.com

So, your incontrovertible source says that the belief that the soul continues on after the body is nowhere taught in Scripture. It also says that this idea that the soul lives on after the body was discouraged by prophet and Lawgiver as "Antagonistic to the belief in Yhwh".

The article goes on to talk about your rabbis and the others that believed this false doctrine. So, that presents you with an enormous problem. One of your incontrovertible sources is contradicting your other incontrovertible sources. So much for incontrovertible source, I guess.

Now, please explain to me how your incontrovertible source is wrong.

Butch5 said:

As are yours. Just because you put these sources on a pedestal doesn't mean everyone else does.
I've shown you time and time again, that aion doesn't mean eternal. But, as usual you don't accept anything that doesn't agree with you. As we see you don't even accept Jesus' words where He said the aion would end. The apostles spoke of the end of the aion. Paul spoke of the end of the aion. But, this doesn't agree with your theology so you reject their words. There aren't any verses where Jesus defined aion as eternal. That's just you imposing your belief onto the passage.
I've taken you own passages and shown you that aion does not mean eternal.
Where it was explained? Do you need the words destroy and kill explained for you? They are pretty simple words to understand.
However, once again, I 'm going to show you, with your own incontrovertible source, that the dead don't live on after death. They are destroyed.
IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL (late Hebrew, "hasharat ha-nefesh"; "ḥayye 'olam"):
By: Kaufmann Kohler
Table of Contents

• Hellenistic View.
• Immortality of Martyrs.
• In Jewish Philosophy.

The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture. As long as the soul was conceived to be merely a breath ("nefesh"; "neshamah"; comp. "anima"), and inseparably connected, if not identified, with the life-blood (Gen. ix. 4, comp. iv. 11; Lev. xvii. 11; see Soul), no real substance could be ascribed to it. As soon as the spirit or breath of God ("nishmat" or "ruaḥ ḥayyim"), which was believed to keep body and soul together, both in man and in beast (Gen. ii. 7, vi. 17, vii. 22; Job xxvii. 3), is taken away (Ps. cxlvi. 4) or returns to God (Eccl. xii. 7; Job xxxiv. 14), the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness (Job xiv. 21; Ps. vi. 6 [A. V. 5], cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 18; Eccl. ix. 5, 10). The belief in a continuous life of the soul, which underlies primitive Ancestor Worship and the rites of necromancy, practised also in ancient Israel (I Sam. xxviii. 13 et seq.; Isa. viii. 19; see Necromancy), was discouraged and suppressed by prophet and lawgiver as antagonistic to the belief in Yhwh, the God of life, the Ruler of heaven and earth, whose reign was not extended over Sheol until post-exilic times (Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, cxxxix. 8).
IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL - JewishEncyclopedia.com
So, your incontrovertible source says that the belief that the soul continues on after the body is nowhere taught in Scripture. It also says that this idea that the soul lives on after the body was discouraged by prophet and Lawgiver as "Antagonistic to the belief in Yhwh".
The article goes on to talk about your rabbis and the others that believed this false doctrine. So, that presents you with an enormous problem. One of your incontrovertible sources is contradicting your other incontrovertible sources. So much for incontrovertible source, I guess.
Now, please explain to me how your incontrovertible source is wrong.

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I would be glad to answer your question as soon as you show me where I ever mentioned the soul. And since I never mentioned the word soul I certainly could not have said it was eternal.
I don't know about others but I have found it very helpful to actually read something before trying to respond to it.
What I have discussed is the meaning of the Greek word "aionios" which I have conclusively shown to be "eternal" using scripture only, no scholars, no opinions.
I am not aware of any NT writer who ever used the word "aionios" or "aion" and described or defined it as a period less than eternity as I showed in 26 verses. See e.g.
In these two verses Jesus, Himself, defined/described "aionios" as eternal, twice, by paralleling it with "should not perish."
You said "I've taken your own passages and shown you that aion does not mean eternal." That is impossible. I think you are referring to the one time Jesus said "the end of the aion."

Der Alte said:

I would be glad to answer your question as soon as you show me where I ever mentioned the soul. And since I never mentioned the word soul I certainly could not have said it was eternal.
I don't know about others but I have found it very helpful to actually read something before trying to respond to it.
What I have discussed is the meaning of the Greek word "aionios" which I have conclusively shown to be "eternal" using scripture only, no scholars, no opinions.
I am not aware of any NT writer who ever used the word "aionios" or "aion" and described or defined it as a period less than eternity as I showed in 26 verses. See e.g.

John 3:15-16
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​

In these two verses Jesus, Himself, defined/described "aionios" as eternal, twice, by paralleling it with "should not perish."
You said "I've taken your own passages and shown you that aion does not mean eternal." That is impossible. I think you are referring to the one time Jesus said "the end of the aion."

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Your first post to me in this thread was in reply to my saying the wicked are destroyed. You countered that with sources saying the dead live on. As I've shown using your own incontrovertible source that idea is antagonistic to belief in YHWH.

I notice you didn't post any of those supposed verses. I'm sure that's because aion doesn't mean eternal. Your posting of John 3:15-16 proves my point. You are imposing your belief onto the passage. What in that passage shows that aion means eternal? There is nothing. Your claim is based on your belief that aionios life is eternal, therefore, you claim aion means eternal. All you've done here is impose your belief onto the word. Apart from your belief that the life is eternal what in this passage proves aion means eternal?

Here are a few that show it's not.

39 "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. (Matt. 13:39 NKJ)

49 "So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
50 "and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matt. 13:49-50 NKJ)

"teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matt. 28:20 NKJ)

The Apostles

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" (Matt. 24:3 NKJ)

Paul

25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. (Heb. 9:25-26 KJV)

Here we have Jesus, the Apostles, and Paul all speaking of the end of the aion.

If aion means eternity, how can there be an eternity to come. By definition eternity doesn't end. If it doesn't end how can there be another one.

Jesus
30 "who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time-- houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions-- and in the age to come, eternal life. (Mk. 10:30 NKJ)

"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:32 NKJ)

Paul
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, (Heb. 6:4-5 NKJ)

Butch5 said:

Your first post to me in this thread was in reply to my saying the wicked are destroyed. You countered that with sources saying the dead live on. As I've shown using your own incontrovertible source that idea is antagonistic to belief in YHWH.

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I notice you didn't post any of those supposed verses. I'm sure that's because aion doesn't mean eternal. Your posting of John 3:15-16 proves my point. You are imposing your belief onto the passage. What in that passage shows that aion means eternal? There is nothing. Your claim is based on your belief that aionios life is eternal, therefore, you claim aion means eternal. All you've done here is impose your belief onto the word. Apart from your belief that the life is eternal what in this passage proves aion means eternal?[/QUOTING]
Proving you did not even read my post

Here are a few that show it's not.

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39 "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. (Matt. 13:39 NKJ)
49 "So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
50 "and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matt. 13:49-50 NKJ)
"teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matt. 28:20 NKJ)
The Apostles
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" (Matt. 24:3 NKJ)
Paul
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. (Heb. 9:25-26 KJV)
Here we have Jesus, the Apostles, and Paul all speaking of the end of the aion.
If aion means eternity, how can there be an eternity to come. By definition eternity doesn't end. If it doesn't end how can there be another one.
Jesus
30 "who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time-- houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions-- and in the age to come, eternal life. (Mk. 10:30 NKJ)
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:32 NKJ)
Paul
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, (Heb. 6:4-5 NKJ)

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All this shows is the the writer/speaker used "aion" NOT aionios hyperbolically.
Try actually reading my post this time.
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
= = = = = = = = = =
In twenty four [24] of the following verses aion and aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”
In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.
In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.


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Paul used the word “aionios” eleven [11] times. It is translated “eternal/everlasting” 20 times and world 3 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house" which is destroyed. Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”
In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
= = = = = = =
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165

Der Alte said:

All this shows is the the writer/speaker used "aion" NOT aionios hyperbolically.
Try actually reading my post this time.
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
= = = = = = = = = =
In twenty four [24] of the following verses aion and aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.


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Read it? I should have it memorized as many times as you've posted it. Jesus didn't define aionios as eternal. You're reasoning here is flawed. If you would listen and actually try to figure it out you'd make progress. You said,

"[1] Luke 1:33
In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal."

You're claim is that contrasting, He shall reign over the house of Jacob aion, with, of His kingdom there shall be no end, proves aion means eternal. However, that's not the case. We know from Scripture that Jesus doesn't reign forever.

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15:24-28 KJV)

Paul tells us plainly that Christ must reign "TILL" he has put all enemies under His feet. He turns the Kingdom over to God the Father. Then Christ Himself is subject to the Father.

So, this shows, not only that aion does not mean eternal. It also shows that your reasoning is flawed. You're trying to reason, through comparison, the word aion to mean eternal when I've given you several passages of Scripture from Jesus, the Apostles, and Paul, all of who spoke of the end of the aion. That means it ends. They also spoke of another one to come. eternal by definition doesn't end, there can't be one following behind it. I don't know how much evidence you required. Maybe it would wise to ditch the incontrovertible sources and replace them with the Scriptures.

Butch5 said:

Read it? I should have it memorized as many times as you've posted it. Jesus didn't define aionios as eternal. You're reasoning here is flawed. If you would listen and actually try to figure it out you'd make progress. You said,
"[1] Luke 1:33

(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal."
You're claim is that contrasting, He shall reign over the house of Jacob aion, with, of His kingdom there shall be no end, proves aion means eternal. However, that's not the case. We know from Scripture that Jesus doesn't reign forever.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15:24-28 KJV)
Paul tells us plainly that Christ must reign "TILL" he has put all enemies under His feet. He turns the Kingdom over to God the Father. Then Christ Himself is subject to the Father.
So, this shows, not only that aion does not mean eternal. It also shows that your reasoning is flawed. You're trying to reason, through comparison, the word aion to mean eternal when I've given you several passages of Scripture from Jesus, the Apostles, and Paul, all of who spoke of the end of the aion. That means it ends. They also spoke of another one to come. eternal by definition doesn't end, there can't be one following behind it. I don't know how much evidence you required. Maybe it would wise to ditch the incontrovertible sources and replace them with the Scriptures.

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Typical heterodox nonsense you find 1-2 verses which seem to support your assumptions/presuppositions and ignore all the other verses.
I quoted 26 verses where the NT writer juxtaposes or parallels aionios with other words which show irrefutably shows that aionios means eternal.
Similar to this. There is an animal it is very big, its skin is thick and grey, it is about 10 feet high, it has large floppy ears. a long flexible nose, the legs are big round like trees, it has long sharp teeth sticking out from its mouth.
What animal have I described.
Luke 1:33
In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal."
Nothing you can say will change this
Revelation 22:3-5
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.