Of the following spiritual gifts, which ones are still available and which ones have ceased?

ViaCrucis

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Eastern Orthodox does recognize a class of saints known as "Equal to the Apostles", isapostolos. Generally this is reserved for someone who was instrumental in the conversion of an entire region to Christianity such as St. Patrick, Sts. Constantine and Helen, and St. Vladimir.

Though my understanding is that Equal-to-the-Apostles is an honorific, not a claim that the individual is an apostle proper.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Though my understanding is that Equal-to-the-Apostles is an honorific, not a claim that the individual is an apostle proper.

-CryptoLutheran

Right, however, we limited the named apostles to that office. No idea if the apostles categorized themselves to that office and that no others could be named apostles.
 
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RDKirk

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That aspect of Joel's prophecy was fulfilled in the first century. It doesn't say prophecy would continue throughout the entire 'last days' period.

Joel doesn't say they won't, either.
 
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swordsman1

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It proves they started. You have to prove that they stopped.

I don't have to prove anything because this verse was given as proof for the continuance of prophecy. All I am saying is that it isn't. Especially when you consider there are other aspects of Joels prophecy which DO NOT continue throughout the church age. If you want to prove that prophecy continued you need to look elsewhere.
 
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chad kincham

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Most of those people are disputed as being apostles. The only confirmed ones are Paul, Barnabas & James.



In the New Testament the word 'apostles' always means the foundational eye-witness apostles of Christ (the Twelve, Paul, etc). The Greek word can also mean 'messenger' but it is only used in this sense in Phil 2:25 and 2 Cor 8:23, but here our bible translators wisely use the word 'messengers' to avoid any confusion with 'the apostles'.
Apostles is an office of the church listed by Paul, after the twelve plus himself plus Matthias became apostles, so apostles were being appointed who were mot chosen by Jesus.

And Jesus is an apostle, Hebrews 3:1, so try to fit that fact into your definition of what apostle ALWAYS is defined as being in the NT.

Maranatha
 
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chad kincham

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That aspect of Joel's prophecy was fulfilled in the first century. It doesn't say prophecy would continue throughout the entire 'last days' period. Joel's prophecy also talks about the sun turning to darkness and the moon to blood. That doesn't occur until the END of the 'last days'. So some of the things listed may only occur at the beginning of the last days - such as 'Your sons and daughters will prophesy'.
The prophecy clearly and unequivocally says dreams, visions, and prophecy occur in the last days as God pours out His spirit, and therefore obviously continues as long as it is still the last days - which it is - and in fact will still be ongoing when the Day of the Lord occurs and the sun turns dark.
 
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chad kincham

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In Acts 1:8 Jesus said all those waiting there would receive DUNAMIS power after the Holy Ghost came on them.


Dunamis is Holy Spirit miracle working power.

When the Holy Spirit fell on Pentecost all 120 assembled there received the Dunamis gift of the Holy Spirit outpouring on them - not just the apostles - and Peter didn’t say that it was a temporary gift given only to the 12 apostles,but was the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy that in the last days, God will pour out His spirit on ALL flesh.

Peter then said to repent and be baptized to get that GIFT of the Holy Spirit they had just received, and added that the gift was for them, their children, for ALL AFAR OFF, even to as MANY AS GOD SHALL CALL. Acts 2:38-39.

There’s the expiration date for the gift, and giftings, of the Holy Spirit- when God no longer calls anyone, the gift will end.

Paul imparted the GIFT of CHARISMA to the church at Corinth, to have while they awaited the second coming of Jesus.

There’s the expiration date of spiritual gifts: when Jesus returns and they are no longer needed.


1Co 1:6Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:


1Co 1:7So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:


The word GIFT there is charisma, where the word charismatic comes from, meaning it’s spiritual gifts Paul imparted.

In addition, Paul said tongues, prophecy and knowledge end simultaneously when that which is perfect comes in 1 Corinthians 13:8, a verse used to “prove” the spiritual gifts have ended.

Yet in the last days God pours out His spirit on all flesh, and prophecies and visions result, per Acts chapter 2:


Act 2:16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;


Act 2:17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


Act 2:18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:


Since those three end when that which is perfect comes, yet prophecy increases in the last days instead of ending, then it is blatantly obvious that all three continue in this, the last days.


And knowledge is also one of the three which ends when that which is perfect comes, and the word knowledge there is GNOSIS, referring to mankind’s science, as proven by the warning in scripture to beware of science falsely so called - the word there translated as science, is also gnosis:


1Ti 6:20O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:


So gnosis ends when that which is perfect comes, yet we are in a science explosion today, where mans knowledge- gnosis - doubles now every six months.


Thus both prophecy and knowledge increase in the last days, instead of ending - therefore tongues are also still for today, since tongues, knowledge and prophecy all end at the same time.


That which is perfect to come is Jesus, because then we shall see FACE TO FACE - an obvious quote from Paul about Moses seeing God face to face, as a friend talks to a friend:


Exo 33:11And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.


And Jacob saw God face to face when He wrestled with Jesus in an OT appearance:


Gen 32:30And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.


Therefore the Bible is clear that all gifts of the Holy Spirit are in effect until Jesus returns and they are no longer needed, and God stops calling anyone.
 
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Apostles is an office of the church listed by Paul, after the twelve plus himself plus Matthias became apostles, so apostles were being appointed who were mot chosen by Jesus.

And Jesus is an apostle, Hebrews 3:1, so try to fit that fact into your definition of what apostle ALWAYS is defined as being in the NT.

Maranatha
Jesus never chose Matthias personally 11 case lots. Jesus chose Paul personally and appeared to Him and converted Saul to Paul and he wrote most of our NT. You never hear anything about Mathias afterwords. The entire NT is filled with Paul’s teachings as is 1/2 of the book of Acts. It’s obvious Paul was Jesus personal choice . History speaks for itself on the matter and the evidence is overwhelming Paul was Jesus man for the office of Apostle. Peter confirms that in Acts and in 2 Peter 3 where he says Paul’s letters are scripture just the same as the OT.

hope this helps !!!
 
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swordsman1

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The prophecy clearly and unequivocally says dreams, visions, and prophecy occur in the last days as God pours out His spirit, and therefore obviously continues as long as it is still the last days - which it is - and in fact will still be ongoing when the Day of the Lord occurs and the sun turns dark.

And those activities did indeed occur during the last days (in the 1st century). Just because this part of Joel's prophecy was fulfilled in the first century doesn't mean it has to continually remain in that state.

For example, each of the following prophesies were fulfilled, but these situations never persisted for very long:
  • Jeremiah prophesied that Jerusalem would be destroyed.
  • Ezekiel predicted that Tyre would be attacked.
  • Isaiah prophesied that Jesus would speak in parables.
  • Jeremiah prophesied that that the children of Bethlehem would be massacred.
  • Zechariah prophesied that Jesus's disciples would desert him.

The fact that the sun is yet to be extinguished shows that not all of Joel's prophecy applies throughout the entire church age.
 
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swordsman1

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In Acts 1:8 Jesus said all those waiting there would receive DUNAMIS power after the Holy Ghost came on them.

Dunamis is Holy Spirit miracle working power.

When the Holy Spirit fell on Pentecost all 120 assembled there received the Dunamis gift of the Holy Spirit outpouring on them - not just the apostles -

It was only the disciples who Jesus said would receive dunamis power in Acts 1:8. And it is debatable whether it was 12 or 120 who spoke in tongues at Pentecost. It depends whether the "they" in Acts 2:1 is referring to the 12 disciples mentioned in the preceding verse (Acts 1:26) or the 120 mentioned in Acts 1:15.

and Peter didn’t say that it was a temporary gift given only to the 12 apostles,but was the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy that in the last days, God will pour out His spirit on ALL flesh.

Peter didn't say it was the dunamis gift of miracles that would be poured out on all flesh. It was the Holy Spirit who will be poured out.

Peter then said to repent and be baptized to get that GIFT of the Holy Spirit they had just received, and added that the gift was for them, their children, for ALL AFAR OFF, even to as MANY AS GOD SHALL CALL. Acts 2:38-39.

There’s the expiration date for the gift, and giftings, of the Holy Spirit- when God no longer calls anyone, the gift will end.

It wasn't the gift of miracles or the gift of tongues or the gift of prophecy that was promised for all those who repent in Acts 2:38. It was the gift of the Holy Spirit himself.

Paul imparted the GIFT of CHARISMA to the church at Corinth, to have while they awaited the second coming of Jesus.

There’s the expiration date of spiritual gifts: when Jesus returns and they are no longer needed.


1Co 1:6Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:


1Co 1:7So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:


The word GIFT there is charisma, where the word charismatic comes from, meaning it’s spiritual gifts Paul imparted.

It doesn't say the Corinthians had all the charismata UNTIL Jesus returns. It says they had charismata, and it also says that they were waiting for Christ's return. There is no "until" linking the 2 statements.

1Co 1:7So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:


And knowledge is also one of the three which ends when that which is perfect comes, and the word knowledge there is GNOSIS, referring to mankind’s science, as proven by the warning in scripture to beware of science falsely so called - the word there translated as science, is also gnosis:


1Ti 6:20O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:


So gnosis ends when that which is perfect comes, yet we are in a science explosion today, where mans knowledge- gnosis - doubles now every six months.


Thus both prophecy and knowledge increase in the last days, instead of ending - therefore tongues are also still for today, since tongues, knowledge and prophecy all end at the same time.

Out of all the expositions of 1 Cor 13:8-12 I've read that's the first time I've ever heard of "knowledge" being 'science'.

Is the spiritual gift of knowledge the gift of science?

That which is perfect to come is Jesus,

In the Greek, the word for "the perfect" or "completion" is in the neuter gender. It is not referring to a person.

because then we shall see FACE TO FACE - an obvious quote from Paul about Moses seeing God face to face, as a friend talks to a friend:

Exo 33:11And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Moses did not see God face to face. It says they spoke face to face. If Moses saw God face to face he would have died.

Exodus 33:20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.
 
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Ligurian

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From the Gospel of the Kingdom:

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto Him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him:

John 14:15 If ye love Me, keep My Commandments and I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever: the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him; but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26-27 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with Me from the beginning.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you. 8 And when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on Me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to My Father, and ye see Me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, [that] shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify Me: for He shall receive of Mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are Mine: therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.

John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [My] Father hath sent Me, even so send I you. 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.

Revelation 11:11-12 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
 
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chad kincham

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And those activities did indeed occur during the last days (in the 1st century). Just because this part of Joel's prophecy was fulfilled in the first century doesn't mean it has to continually remain in that state.

For example, each of the following prophesies were fulfilled, but these situations never persisted for very long:
  • Jeremiah prophesied that Jerusalem would be destroyed.
  • Ezekiel predicted that Tyre would be attacked.
  • Isaiah prophesied that Jesus would speak in parables.
  • Jeremiah prophesied that that the children of Bethlehem would be massacred.
  • Zechariah prophesied that Jesus's disciples would desert him.

The fact that the sun is yet to be extinguished shows that not all of Joel's prophecy applies throughout the entire church age.
Gods Spirit pours out in the last days - not for a third, not for half, but during all the last days - and spiritual gifts end with the return of Jesus when there is no longer a need for them.

Peter said they last as long as God is calling anyone Acts 2:38-39

Paul imparted spiritual gifts to the church at Corinth to have until Jesus returns.

Jesus says signs of tongues and healing follows those who believe, Mark 16.

Paul wrote that tongues, prophecy and science - gnosis - end simultaneously, yet gnosis is currently doubling every six months, and dreams visions and prophesy are poured out in the last days, plus Jesus says tongues will follow those who believe.

Ironically while cessationists are warning believers to shun the gifts of the spirit and Dunamis power, scripture warns believers to stay away from last days churches who have a form of Godliness, but deny the POWER - Dunamis - thereof.
 
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chad kincham

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Jesus never chose Matthias personally 11 case lots. Jesus chose Paul personally and appeared to Him and converted Saul to Paul and he wrote most of our NT. You never hear anything about Mathias afterwords. The entire NT is filled with Paul’s teachings as is 1/2 of the book of Acts. It’s obvious Paul was Jesus personal choice . History speaks for itself on the matter and the evidence is overwhelming Paul was Jesus man for the office of Apostle. Peter confirms that in Acts and in 2 Peter 3 where he says Paul’s letters are scripture just the same as the OT.

hope this helps !!!

Yet Paul lists the church office of apostles as being for the church - so why did Paul not know he’s the last apostle?

And Hebrews calls Jesus an apostle.

Did Jesus appoint and send himself!

And how is it Barnabas is an apostle?

Act 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

You might want to rethink your position on that one.

Maranatha
 
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RDKirk

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In the Greek, the word for "the perfect" or "completion" is in the neuter gender. It is not referring to a person.

I would presume that Paul's audience knew what he was referring to by "the perfect."

If they knew Paul meant the scriptural canon, they certainly showed no urgency in getting it compiled. It would be another 75 years before the concept of compiling the canon would even be contemplated, and nobody in Paul's time considered that his letters would be part of such a thing.
 
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swordsman1

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Gods Spirit pours out in the last days - not for a third, not for half, but during all the last days - and spiritual gifts end with the return of Jesus when there is no longer a need for them.

Peter said they last as long as God is calling anyone Acts 2:38-39

There is no mention of spiritual gifts in Acts 2:38-39

Jesus says signs of tongues and healing follows those who believe, Mark 16.

It also says believers would pick up deadly snakes and drink poison without any harm coming to them. Does that happen today? No, that prophecy was fulfilled in the 1st century.

scripture warns believers to stay away from last days churches who have a form of Godliness, but deny the POWER - Dunamis - thereof.

It is not churches who have a form of godliness but deny its power. It is UNBELEIVERS. Read 2 Tim 3:1-9
 
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swordsman1

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I would presume that Paul's audience knew what he was referring to by "the perfect."

If they knew Paul meant the scriptural canon, they certainly showed no urgency in getting it compiled. It would be another 75 years before the concept of compiling the canon would even be contemplated,

I expect they were just as baffled as to exactly what Paul was referring to, as much as commentators today are. It is an adjective (meaning complete or perfect) without a noun.

and nobody in Paul's time considered that his letters would be part of such a thing.

Peter knew that Paul's letters were part of scripture....

2 Peter 3:15-16 "..our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

and Paul knew that Luke's gospel was part of scripture....

1 Timothy 5:18 For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages.”

(“The worker deserves his wages” only appears in Luke 10:7)

And when the last of the apostles died they knew there would be no one else authorized to write scripture. The canon would be complete.
 
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RDKirk

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And when the last of the apostles died they knew there would be no one else authorized to write scripture. The canon would be complete.

Nothing in the writings of the early Church fathers indicates any such thinking. The letters were called "the memoirs of the Apostles," not "holy scripture."

Nobody was considering the concept of "canon" until the Marcionite heresy in 140AD, and then it was another 200 years before they actually "completed" it.
 
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