The Trend Toward Atheism

Fervent · Sep 12, 2021

Hmm said:
Didn't somebody once say something about not judging others or something? Not sure if you know the verse I mean?

You mean the one that tells us to remove the speck after the plank has been removed from our own eye? That doesn't mean "don't judge," it means "don't judge hypocritically." Once you have been judged, there is no further fear of judgment.

Saint Steven said:
That's nasty. Just nasty.

Holiness is intolerant. Jesus told the Pharisee's they were vipers and sons of the devil, Elijah mocked the prophets of ba'al. There is no room for tolerating idols nor those who build them, they must be denounced in the harshest terms possible.

Fervent · Sep 12, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Faith in the Word of God doesn't mean that the bible is 100% complete all the knowledge of God.
There's still things that God does not reveal to us.
that is my takeaway from Proverbs 25:2

Yep..even being inerrant doesn't mean we can't recognize the human element in authorship, or even believe that parts of it are not actual history. It just means we cannot accept the proposition that a single part of it is in addition to what God intended, or anything less than He intended. Every mark of punctuation, every preposition. When there is ambiguity, that is intentional. But it remains God's word.

Hmm · Sep 13, 2021

Fervent said:
Yep..even being inerrant doesn't mean we can't recognize the human element in authorship, or even believe that parts of it are not actual history. It just means we cannot accept the proposition that a single part of it is in addition to what God intended, or anything less than He intended. Every mark of punctuation, every preposition. When there is ambiguity, that is intentional. But it remains God's word.

Do you believe that translation errors exist and are possible or is every translation and every future translation similarly guaranteed to be exactly what God wants?

Fervent · Sep 13, 2021

Hmm said:
Do you believe that translation errors exist and are possible or is every translation and every future translation similarly guaranteed to be exactly what God wants?

Let me ask you a question, why are you trying to undermine the reliability of the Bible?

Hmm · Sep 13, 2021

Fervent said:
Let me ask you a question, why are you trying to undermine the reliability of the Bible?

I'm questioning you, not the Bible or God. There is a difference. You do see that, no?

Fervent · Sep 13, 2021

Hmm said:
I'm questioning you, not the Bible or God. There is a difference. You do see that, no?

No, you're not questioning me. You're introducing uncertainty as to whether we can trust the Bible. What is your end in asking about errors in translation?

Hmm · Sep 13, 2021

Fervent said:
No, you're not questioning me. You're introducing uncertainty as to whether we can trust the Bible. What is your end in asking about errors in translation?

I have no "end". I was merely asking you whether you thought English Bible translations have, or can have, errors. It seems that question is too much for you to emotionally handle so let it go.

parousia70 · Sep 13, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Now that's even more bonkers and delusional, Peter said Satan was prowling around like a lion, Paul called him the "god of this world"
Neither of those descriptions describe a being that's under restraint and prevented from deceiving the nations.

Well, as the Loosing of Satan at the end of the Millennium fits just fine with Satan Roaming around in the apostolic generation, which would be the end of the Millennuim in this view, your objection would be circular, and therefore moot.

Regardless, the point I've proven here is that believing the Millennium is past, is in no way, shape or form a belief EXCLUSIVE to Full preterism, which was the false assertion I was addressing, and have concretely refuted.

Fervent · Sep 13, 2021

Hmm said:
I have no "end". I was merely asking you whether you thought English Bible translations have, or can have, errors. It seems that question is too much for you to emotionally handle so let it go.

Don't be coy now. It's not that the question is too much to handle, it's that it is irrelevant. You had a reason for asking me, was it not to try to undermine my contention that the Bible is the word of God?

Hmm · Sep 13, 2021

Fervent said:
Don't be coy now. It's not that the question is too much to handle, it's that it is irrelevant. You had a reason for asking me, was it not to try to undermine my contention that the Bible is the word of God?

I disliked you saying that I was trying to undermine the Bible and I found it offensive tbh. I really have no interest in undermining any contention you may have about the Bible. It's not all about you. I asked you a simple question about Bible translations, that's all. Let it go.

Fervent · Sep 13, 2021

Hmm said:
I disliked you saying that I was trying to undermine the Bible and I found it offensive tbh. I really have no interest in undermining any contention you may have about the Bible. It's not all about you. I asked you a simple question about translations, that's all.

Don't really care what you disliked or found offensive. You had a reason for asking the question you asked, in the manner you asked it. What would it have accomplished, had your argument succeeded? Proving that there are errors in the Bible, that it is untrustworthy because God is not superintending it and men are simply introducing their own biases, misunderstandings, and outright fabrications? It's not about me, not about me at all. So be offended, because it is your question that is in error, and place that offense where it needs to be.

Hmm · Sep 13, 2021

Fervent said:
Don't really care what you disliked or found offensive. You had a reason for asking the question you asked, in the manner you asked it. What would it have accomplished, had your argument succeeded? Proving that there are errors in the Bible, that it is untrustworthy because God is not superintending it and men are simply introducing their own biases, misunderstandings, and outright fabrications? It's not about me, not about me at all. So be offended, because it is your question that is in error, and place that offense where it needs to be.

Dear me

Clare73 · Sep 13, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I guess I am more concerned about some larger items. Like the Exodus (400 years of slavery), wilderness wanderings and the conquest of Canaan (the Promised Land). Archeology says, "Sorry, never happened."

The Apostle Paul actually quotes a Jewish myth about the wanderings in the NT. Here it is. What is this "rock that accompanied them"? (from which they drank)
1 Corinthians 10:3-4 NIV
They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Oh, for cryin' out loud. . .

That is not a "Jewish myth." That is spiritualizing matters material, as in
1) spiritual circumcision through the Holy Spirit (Romans 2:26-29), or

2) God's spiritual full-time Sabbath rest through faith in Jesus Christ where we rest full-time from the work to save ourselves (Hebrews 3:7-4:11), or

3) God's spiritual seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:16) being the Gentile NT church in Christ (Galatians 3:29), or

4) Sarah as the spiritual mother of the Gentile NT church (Galatians 4:27) and

5) spiritual sustenance Christ continually provides for his people, as material sustenance was provided to Israel in the dessert.

Good grief!

Fervent · Sep 13, 2021

2PhiloVoid said:
In other words, I think that as it was 2,000 year ago, so it is today. We just know that we have to be careful so we don't prevent others from coming to Christ due to our negligences, our apathies or our bullying.

I'm not sure we can prevent others from coming to Christ, though we may lend them excuses for their unbelief. Ultimately, conversion is the work of God. It is the call of the Shepherd that causes submission to the gospel, and how that happens is God's prerogative. So long as we are living and heeding the Holy Spirit, our witness will be true. But as we are human, we will inevitably be "bad Christians" to people who are looking for an excuse. Our unkindness, rather than being chalked up to our human frailty, will be assigned to our faith. Anyone who bases their faith on the actions of other people does not have true faith, all we can do is live as best we can, preach when the opportunity arises, and trust God to overcome the objections.

Abide with me. · Sep 13, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I just saw this headline in the New York Times and wondered...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The New Chief Chaplain at Harvard? An Atheist.
The elevation of Greg Epstein, author of “Good Without God,” reflects a broader trend of young people who increasingly identify as spiritual but religiously nonaffiliated.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What is wrong with us?
We are seen as less and less attractive to the world.
I suppose we would blame them. But are they really to blame?

Good without God = self worship, a profound belief in self and society, this is why the liberals and young are so full of hysteria and despair, they put all their faith in things which do not and can not deliver, instead of trusting in God, and can not distinguish the difference between religion and God the creator.
It is a modern contagion brought about by an increasing comfort zone of false security.

2PhiloVoid · Sep 13, 2021

Fervent said:
I'm not sure we can prevent others from coming to Christ, though we may lend them excuses for their unbelief. Ultimately, conversion is the work of God. It is the call of the Shepherd that causes submission to the gospel, and how that happens is God's prerogative. So long as we are living and heeding the Holy Spirit, our witness will be true. But as we are human, we will inevitably be "bad Christians" to people who are looking for an excuse. Our unkindness, rather than being chalked up to our human frailty, will be assigned to our faith. Anyone who bases their faith on the actions of other people does not have true faith, all we can do is live as best we can, preach when the opportunity arises, and trust God to overcome the objections.

True enough, and I won't dispute much if any of what you've said. Still, I think we need to realize that it's folks among us who can bring the Way into disrepute do to their lack of love or social stability. And here I'm thinking of persons like those at Westboro Baptist with their specific brand of picket signage or those other persons involved in various church scandals, like that at the PTL network or even lately with Ravi Zacharias, etc. ... Those kinds of things.

We just need to make sure that when we think we're being 'Bold' in Christ that we're not actually being hateful and/or demeaning at the same time. That's all I'm saying.

Fervent · Sep 13, 2021

2PhiloVoid said:
True enough, and I won't dispute much if any of what you've said. Still, I think we need to realize that it's folks among us who can bring the Way into disrepute do to their lack of love or social stability. And here I'm thinking of persons like those at Westboro Baptist with their specific brand of picket signage or those other persons involved in various church scandals, like that at the PTL network or even lately with Ravi Zacharias, etc. ... Those kinds of things.

We just need to make sure that when we think we're being 'Bold' in Christ that we're not actually being hateful and/or demeaning at the same time. That's all I'm saying.

Yes, I understand what you mean. But you judge those at Westboro and others that in your view present a hatefulness, yet have you ever had a conversation with a member of Westboro baptist? Is their strong denunciation because they see the sin as that serious and desire for repentance, perhaps a misplaced zeal for the lost such that truth is valued over tact? Were the Israelites hateful when they put the Amelikites to the sword, or was Saul's extending mercy to Agag the error?

2PhiloVoid · Sep 13, 2021

Fervent said:
Yes, I understand what you mean. But you judge those at Westboro and others that in your view present a hatefulness, yet have you ever had a conversation with a member of Westboro baptist? Is their strong denunciation because they see the sin as that serious and desire for repentance, perhaps a misplaced zeal for the lost such that truth is valued over tact? Were the Israelites hateful when they put the Amelikites to the sword, or was Saul's extending mercy to Agag the error?

Honestly, I won't say that I have had a conversation with any of the folks at Westboro. BUT, I have seen their picket signs and their church signs and it seems to me that those don't read like something Jesus or the Apostles would have said in quite the same way.

Then too we might take into consideration Luke 9:54-55 and think about what that might mean for us. Maybe? Just a little perhaps? Not that I haven't gone on some tirades against sin myself here on CF---and there's plenty of them---but I don't think I've said too much that would be in the way of extremely deprecating and directly damning to other people? But I could be wrong?

Fervent · Sep 13, 2021

2PhiloVoid said:
Honestly, I won't say that I have had a conversation with any of the folks at Westboro. BUT, I have seen their picket signs and their church signs and it seems to me that those don't read like something Jesus or the Apostles would have said in quite the same way.

Then too we might take into consideration Luke 9:54-55 and think about what that might mean for us. Maybe? Just a little perhaps? Not that I haven't gone on some tirades against sin myself here on CF---and there's plenty of them---but I don't think I've said too much that would be in the way of extremely deprecating and directly damning to other people? But I could be wrong?

I agree that their messaging is harsh and uncalled for, my question is whether it is out of a genuine zeal for the lost or simple bigotry. No matter how earnestly we seek God, at the end of the day we still are prisoners of a flesh that opposes God and we will inevitably do and say the wrong thing at points. Offer rebukes, but recognize that ulimately we are in the process of redemption and everyone starts at different points and progresses at their own rate. Our only concern is that we preach the gospel, accountability is for ourselves not others.

Hmm · Sep 13, 2021

Fervent said:
Our only concern is that we preach the gospel,

It's interesting that you assume the role of a preacher rather than of a learner. Didn't Jesus say something about "the least of these"? Just saying.

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