locusts in the pit vs. satan in the pit--assuming Amil

DavidPT · Sep 13, 2021

Why is it, assuming Amil, when the locusts are in the pit(Revelation 9), it is as if they don't even exist at the time, and that they are 100% prevented from having any interaction with the outside world altogether? But when satan is in this same pit, still assuming Amil, the same is not true about satan. There is something wrong with that picture. The pit can prevent all interactions with the outside world altogether, in the locust's case, but not in satan's case. Let's look at Revelation 9. BTW, it doesn't matter what these locusts are or are not, that's not the point. The point has to do with comparing their imprisonment in the pit with that of satan's imprisonment in the pit, and how Amil has satan's imprisonment in the pit as pointless and non effective even though the imprisonment in this same pit seems rather effective in the locust's case.

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Are any Amils going to argue that before the pit is opened, these locusts seen coming out have been interacting with the outside world while locked up in the pit? If any Amils do argue that, they then have to show in what way these particular locusts have been interacting with the outside world while imprisoned in the pit. Do amils think these locusts are also like a dog on a chain like they do about satan while he is in the pit? Do Amils treat these locusts imprisonment in the pit the same way they treat satan's imprisonment in the pit? Or are they cherry picking here instead? IOW, they have satan still being able to fully interact with the outside world while imprisoned in the pit, while having the locusts having zero ability to interact with the outside world altogether when they are imprisoned in this same pit.

Do these locusts prove that this pit is a real place, a real place that can imprison spirit beings? I would think so, otherwise how does one explain, that while the locusts are in the pit, it is as if they don't even exist at the time? The same should be true when satan is in the pit as well. Per Premil the same would be true. Why isn't the same also true per Amil?

spiritfilledjm · Sep 13, 2021

They were locked in the pit until they were set free to torment the men who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. While they couldn't eat the grass or trees or anything that grows, as they normally do, they were released and would only torment man. That's what I get from that passage.

sovereigngrace · Sep 13, 2021

DavidPT said:
Why is it, assuming Amil, when the locusts are in the pit(Revelation 9), it is as if they don't even exist at the time, and that they are 100% prevented from having any interaction with the outside world altogether? But when satan is in this same pit, still assuming Amil, the same is not true about satan. There is something wrong with that picture. The pit can prevent all interactions with the outside world altogether, in the locust's case, but not in satan's case. Let's look at Revelation 9 first. BTW, it doesn't matter what these locusts are or are not, that's not the point. The point has to do with comparing their imprisonment in the pit with that of satan's imprisonment in the pit, and how Amil has satan's imprisonment in the pit as pointless and non effective even though the imprisonment in this same pit seems rather effective in the locust's case.

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Are any Amils going to argue that before the pit is opened, these locusts seen coming out, have been interacting with the outside world while locked up in the pit? If any Amils do argue that, they then have to show in what way these particular locusts have been interacting with the outside world while imprisoned in the pit. Do amils think these locusts are also like a dog on a chain like they do about satan while he is in the pit? Do Amils treat these locusts imprisonment in the pit the same way they treat satan's imprisonment in the pit? Or are they cherry picking here instead? IOW, they have satan still being able to fully interact with the outside world while imprisoned in the pit, while having the locusts having zero ability to interact with the outside world altogether when they are imprisoned in this same pit.

Do these locusts prove that this pit is a real place, a real place that can imprison spirit beings? I would think so, otherwise how does one explain, that while the locusts are in the pit, it is as if they don't even exist at the time? The same should be true when satan is in the pit as well. Per Premil the same would be true. Why isn't the same also true per Amil?

Thanks for highlighting this. This powerfully supports the Amil position.

1. You need to grasp the symbolism. The abyss is a spiritual prison for spiritual beings. This is not a physical geographical place. It is a spiritual state.
2. These scorpion-like locusts are demons.
3. This is before the coming of Christ.
4. This proves that demons are in the abyss now.
5, They have a king over them - "whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon." These names mean destroyer. We know who owns that name. The kingdom of darkness has only one king - Satan.
6. The demonic realm is released from its spiritual prison before the coming of Jesus. This corresponds with Satan's little season (Revelation 20) and the removal of the restraint on the mystery of iniquity (2 Thessalonians 2), thus corroborating Amillennialism.
7. It is their mission to torment and destroy before Jesus returns. This is the mission of demons in this day.

sovereigngrace · Sep 13, 2021

DavidPT said:
Why is it, assuming Amil, when the locusts are in the pit(Revelation 9), it is as if they don't even exist at the time, and that they are 100% prevented from having any interaction with the outside world altogether? But when satan is in this same pit, still assuming Amil, the same is not true about satan. There is something wrong with that picture. The pit can prevent all interactions with the outside world altogether, in the locust's case, but not in satan's case. Let's look at Revelation 9. BTW, it doesn't matter what these locusts are or are not, that's not the point. The point has to do with comparing their imprisonment in the pit with that of satan's imprisonment in the pit, and how Amil has satan's imprisonment in the pit as pointless and non effective even though the imprisonment in this same pit seems rather effective in the locust's case.

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Are any Amils going to argue that before the pit is opened, these locusts seen coming out have been interacting with the outside world while locked up in the pit? If any Amils do argue that, they then have to show in what way these particular locusts have been interacting with the outside world while imprisoned in the pit. Do amils think these locusts are also like a dog on a chain like they do about satan while he is in the pit? Do Amils treat these locusts imprisonment in the pit the same way they treat satan's imprisonment in the pit? Or are they cherry picking here instead? IOW, they have satan still being able to fully interact with the outside world while imprisoned in the pit, while having the locusts having zero ability to interact with the outside world altogether when they are imprisoned in this same pit.

Do these locusts prove that this pit is a real place, a real place that can imprison spirit beings? I would think so, otherwise how does one explain, that while the locusts are in the pit, it is as if they don't even exist at the time? The same should be true when satan is in the pit as well. Per Premil the same would be true. Why isn't the same also true per Amil?

Amils strongly believe in corroboration. There is much to support every aspect of that viewpoint. On the other hand analyze Premil and it has no corroboration to support all its fundamental belief on Revelation 20. Many of its core beliefs are not even in Revelation 20. They are forced upon the sacred text.

For example: there is no corroboration for its binding of Satan in the future, 2 future resurrection days, 2 future judgment days, the release of Satan 1000 years after the second coming to overrun their supposed millennium as the sand of the sea.

There is nothing whatsoever in Revelation 20 re Jesus on earth during this period, mortal sinners interacting with glorified saints. Premils also skips around the fact that after Satan's little season the 1st earth is removed, thus needing another rapture to avoid the fire of God.

Whatever way you look at it, Premil does not add up.

DavidPT · Sep 13, 2021

spiritfilledjm said:
They were locked in the pit until they were set free to torment the men who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. While they couldn't eat the grass or trees or anything that grows, as they normally do, they were released and would only torment man. That's what I get from that passage.

This makes a good point, that while the locusts are imprisoned in the pit this prevents them from doing what comes natural to them, eating the grass or trees or anything that grows. The same should be true when satan is in the pit, that it too should prevent what comes natural to him, and that is that it should prevent the act of deceiving. Since the text in Revelation 20 indicates that satan is bound so that he can deceive the nations no more, and not instead deceive the nations less like Amils take it to mean, this should have all the bases covered because if he can't deceive the nations anymore he can't deceive anyone anymore. Nations obviously consist of ppl, which means that if nations can't be deceived at the time, it is meaning no one living in these nations can be deceived.

DavidPT · Sep 13, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Thanks for highligting this. This powerfully supports the Amil position.

1. You need to grasp the symbolism. The abyss is a spiritual prison for spiritual beings. This is not a physical geographical place. It is a spiritual state.
2. These scorpion-like locusts are demons. 3. This is before the coming of Christ.
4. This proves that demons are in the abyss now.
5, They have a king over them -
"whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon." These names mean destroyer. We know who owns that name. The kingdom of darkness has only one king - Satan.
6. The demonic realm is released from its spiritual prison before the coming of Jesus. This corresponds with Satan's little season (Revelation 20) and the removal of the restraint on the mystery of iniquity (2 Thessalonians 2), thus corroborating Amillennialism.
7. It is their mission to torment and destroy before Jesus returns. This is the mission of demons in this day.

Who is even arguing that no one is presently in the pit? It is clear that these locusts are in the pit, and it is clear that the beast is in the pit at the time of John receiving the visions he did at the time. What is not clear is that satan is also already in the pit. These locusts tend to prove otherwise. While they are in the pit it doesn't seem like they are able to do what satan can do while in the pit though, this assuming Amil. Why is it that the pit is able to 100% prevent the locusts from doing anything whatsoever when they are imprisoned there, but the same is not true when satan is imprisoned there, this again assuming Amil?

sovereigngrace · Sep 13, 2021

DavidPT said:
This makes a good point, that while the locusts are imprisoned in the pit this prevents them from doing what comes natural to them, eating the grass or trees or anything that grows. The same should be true when satan is in the pit, that it too should prevent what comes natural to him, and that is that it should prevent the act of deceiving. Since the text in Revelation 20 indicates that satan is bound so that he can deceive the nations no more, and not instead deceive the nations less like Amils take it to mean, this should have all the bases covered because if he can't deceive the nations anymore he can't deceive anyone anymore. Nations obviously consist of ppl, which means that if nations can't be deceived at the time, it is meaning no one living in these nations can be deceived.

The word for nations (ethnos) is normally interpreted Gentiles in the NT. If you cannot see the change in regard to the Gentiles since the first resurrection of Christ then I cannot help you. Bias can conceal a lot of truth in God's Word.

Satan had the Gentiles largely blinded, deceived, enveloped in darkness, in ignorance, but now the light has shone. They are no longer ignorant. They are without excuse.

God is no longer just God of Israel. He is God of the Gentiles.

This is what Jesus is showing us in Revelation 20.

sovereigngrace · Sep 13, 2021

DavidPT said:
Who is even arguing that no one is presently in the pit? It is clear that these locusts are in the pit, and it is clear that the beast is in the pit at the time of John receiving the visions he did at the time. What is not clear is that satan is also already in the pit. These locusts tend to prove otherwise. While they are in the pit it doesn't seem like they are able to do what satan can do while in the pit though, this assuming Amil. Why is it that the pit is able to 100% prevent the locusts from doing anything whatsoever when they are imprisoned there, but the same is not true when satan is imprisoned there, this again assuming Amil?

If you simply read my posts above you would get your answer.

sovereigngrace · Sep 13, 2021

DavidPT said:
Who is even arguing that no one is presently in the pit? It is clear that these locusts are in the pit, and it is clear that the beast is in the pit at the time of John receiving the visions he did at the time. What is not clear is that satan is also already in the pit. These locusts tend to prove otherwise. While they are in the pit it doesn't seem like they are able to do what satan can do while in the pit though, this assuming Amil. Why is it that the pit is able to 100% prevent the locusts from doing anything whatsoever when they are imprisoned there, but the same is not true when satan is imprisoned there, this again assuming Amil?

Until you see the spiritual symbolism, i doubt you are going to grasp the meaning of Revelation 9 and 20.

DavidPT · Sep 13, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
If you simply read my posts above you would get your answer.

I read the entire post , it was not that lengthy.

I simply disagree that satan is meant by the king of the pit. But let's assume he is. The text never indicates one way or the other that the king of the pit is in pit when the locusts are. Maybe he is maybe he isn't. And another reason satan being the king of the pit makes no sense to me is because the locusts are let out of the pit, not to torment saints, which is something satan would likely prefer, but are let out in order to torment the lost. Sounds like the locusts are doing God's will not satan's will instead.

sovereigngrace · Sep 13, 2021

DavidPT said:
I read the entire post , it was not that lengthy. I simply disagree that satan is meant by the king of the pit. But let's assume he is. The text never indicates one way or the other that the king of the pit is in pit when the locusts are. Maybe he is maybe he isn't. And another reason satan being the king of the pit makes no sense to me is because the locusts are let out of the pit, not to torment saints, which is something satan would likely prefer, but are let out in order to torment the lost. Sounds like the locusts are doing God's will not satan's will instead.

The NT shows: Satan has no power over the elect. They have power over him.
Revelation 9:11 states: “they had a king over them, which is the angel of the abyss [Gr. abussos], whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.” You cannot have it both ways. This king is shown here to have direct and absolute control over this demonic army to direct them and oversee them. In one breath you are arguing that the pit means absolute separation from those outside, and yet, in the next breath, you divorce Satan from hands on influence over his own realm. Again, that is ridiculous and nonsensical.
Revelation 9:1-3 shows the abyss occupied now by Satan and his minions prior to the last trumpet. Remember Abaddon/Apollyon is a king. This king is obviously head over a kingdom (that is what king's rule over) so what kingdom or domain and subjects and territory does he rule over? This is no natural king but a spiritual king. If it is a spiritual king it must either be Christ or Satan - the only two rulers over the two conflicting spiritual kingdoms. We know that Christ is not on earth since His ascent and definitely not in the abyss. There can surely be no doubt that this is Satan.
I totally object to your idea that it is God directing these locust to torment people. Jesus did not come to condemn men, He came to save. It is Satan that torments in these days. It is demons that torment on an unprecedented scale before the coming of Jesus. I believe you are butchering the text.

DavidPT · Sep 13, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
If you simply read my posts above you would get your answer.

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall(pipto) from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

I assume you agree an angel is meant here. Notice how he arrives, not like other angels recorded in Revelation typically do, this one seems to fall as if it has been cast out of heaven rather than simply coming down from heaven. If we compare to the following verse in Luke 10 and then look at the Greek in both accounts we then see these 2 passages having the following in common.

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall(pipto) from heaven.

pipto
pip'-to,
peto pet'-o; (which occurs only as an alternate in certain tenses); probably akin to petomai - petomai 4072 through the idea of alighting; to fall (literally or figuratively):--fail, fall (down), light on.

satan is clearly an angel of some sort, and that in Revelation stars sometimes symbolize angels, and that in both accounts we are told someone falls from heaven. Luke 10:18 informs that satan falls from heaven. Revelation 9:1 informs that a star falls from heaven, meaning an angel. Therefore, could the falling star in Revelation 9:1 be meaning satan? Maybe, yet I encounter the same problem I indicated you did if the king of the pit is meaning satan, and that being why would satan be opening the pit in order to let out demons to torment the lost? But if the falling star is meaning satan, this undeniably proves that satan isn't in the pit when the locusts are.

sovereigngrace · Sep 13, 2021

DavidPT said:
Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall(pipto) from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

I assume you agree an angel is meant here. Notice how he arrives, not like other angels recorded in Revelation typically do, this one seems to fall as if it has been cast out of heaven rather than simply coming down from heaven. If we compare to the following verse in Luke 10 and then look at the Greek in both accounts we then see these 2 passages having the following in common.

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall(pipto) from heaven.

pipto
pip'-to,
peto pet'-o; (which occurs only as an alternate in certain tenses); probably akin to petomai - petomai 4072 through the idea of alighting; to fall (literally or figuratively):--fail, fall (down), light on.

satan is clearly an angel of some sort, and that in Revelation stars sometimes symbolize angels, and that in both accounts we are told someone falls from heaven. Luke 10:18 informs that satan falls from heaven. Revelation 9:1 informs that a star falls from heaven, meaning an angel. Therefore, could the falling star in Revelation 9:1 be meaning satan? Maybe, yet I encounter the same problem I indicated you did if the king of the pit is meaning satan, and that being why would satan be opening the pit in order to let out demons to torment the lost? But if the falling star is meaning satan, this undeniably proves that satan isn't in the pit when the locusts are.

The question is: is it a fallen angel or is it an elect angel? This word pipto (Strong’s 4098) interpreted “fall” carries the idea of alighting or descending. It is derived from the Greek word petomai (Strong’s 4072) meaning ‘to fly’. This would certainly support the idea that we are looking at an angel. The Greek word pipto itself carries several meanings; the first of which we encounter is ‘to descend from a higher place to a lower’. All these interpretations are consistent with the picture of an angel descending from heaven to earth.

Revelation 9 proves that the abyss is the invisible spiritual restrained domain where demons operate now upon "earth."

Let us first establish that John is actually looking at "a star" in Revelation 9:1. That is what he identifies. He is seeing a symbolic vision. Whilst it is likely the star represents an angel the vision relates to an actual star. Because a star is inanimate, it is described as falling. Basically stars “fall” (Revelation 8.10; 9.1). Good angels on the other hand are said to “come down” (Revelation 10.1; 20.1). Whilst the same picture is been painted in both, one relates to a symbol (representing an angel) the other to a literal angel.

It is worth noting, Revelation 8:10-11 uses similar language to Revelation 9:1, saying, “there pipto (or) fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.”

This star/angel that descended from heaven seemed to be on a heavenly assignment to open-up the bottomless pit before the second coming. It would clearly be wrong to view this as a demonic being.

DavidPT · Sep 13, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
The question is: is it a fallen angel or is it an elect angel? This word pipto (Strong’s 4098) interpreted “fall” carries the idea of alighting or descending. It is derived from the Greek word petomai (Strong’s 4072) meaning ‘to fly’. This would certainly support the idea that we are looking at an angel. The Greek word pipto itself carries several meanings; the first of which we encounter is ‘to descend from a higher place to a lower’. All these interpretations are consistent with the picture of an angel descending from heaven to earth.

Revelation 9 proves that the abyss is the invisible spiritual restrained domain where demons operate now upon "earth."

Let us first establish that John is actually looking at "a star" in Revelation 9:1. That is what he identifies. He is seeing a symbolic vision. Whilst it is likely the star represents an angel the vision relates to an actual star. Because a star is inanimate, it is described as falling. Basically stars “fall” (Revelation 8.10; 9.1). Good angels on the other hand are said to “come down” (Revelation 10.1; 20.1). Whilst the same picture is been painted in both, one relates to a symbol (representing an angel) the other to a literal angel.

It is worth noting, Revelation 8:10-11 uses similar language to Revelation 9:1, saying, “there pipto (or) fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.”

This star/angel that descended from heaven seemed to be on a heavenly assignment to open-up the bottomless pit before the second coming. It would clearly be wrong to view this as a demonic being.

The more I think about it the more I tend to think the falling star in Revelation 9:1 might be the same one that is the king of the pit in verse 11. One doesn't have to be in the pit also in order to be the king of it. To me it seems somewhat reasonable that the king of something would be the one having the key to something. If you want to insist the king of the pit is satan, I may even end up agreeing with you, because if it is correct that the falling angel and the king of the pit are one and the same, this tends to debunk Amil not prove it, since it would be ludicrous that satan can be locked up inside of the pit, and at the same time, be on the outside opening it up. Looks like things may have backfired on you a bit because earlier in this thread you were elated that I was highlighting these things, thus proving Amil in the process, when it doesn't seem to be the case at all if the angel with the key is the king of the pit, and that this is meaning satan.

On a side note, picture a literal falling star, then compare with what Jesus said about satan falling as lightning, exactly what a falling star resembles when falling from the sky.

sovereigngrace · Sep 13, 2021

DavidPT said:
The more I think about it the more I tend to think the falling star in Revelation 9:1 might be the same one that is the king of the pit in verse 11. One doesn't have to be in the pit also in order to be the king of it. To me it seems somewhat reasonable that the king of something would be the one having the key to something. If you want to insist the king of the pit is satan, I may even end up agreeing with you, because if it is correct that the falling angel and the king of the pit are one and the same, this tends to debunk Amil not prove it, since it would be ludicrous that satan can be locked up inside of the pit, and at the same time, be on the outside opening it up. Looks like things may have backfired on you a bit because earlier in this thread you were elated that I was highlighting these things, thus proving Amil in the process, when it doesn't seem to be the case at all if the angel with the key is the king of the pit, and that this is meaning satan.

On a side note, picture a literal falling star, then compare with what Jesus said about satan falling as lightning, exactly what a falling star resembles when falling from the sky.

I have to disagree. Please read my last post.

Timtofly · Sep 14, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Thanks for highlighting this. This powerfully supports the Amil position.

1. You need to grasp the symbolism. The abyss is a spiritual prison for spiritual beings. This is not a physical geographical place. It is a spiritual state.
2. These scorpion-like locusts are demons.
3. This is before the coming of Christ.
4. This proves that demons are in the abyss now.
5, They have a king over them - "whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon." These names mean destroyer. We know who owns that name. The kingdom of darkness has only one king - Satan.
6. The demonic realm is released from its spiritual prison before the coming of Jesus. This corresponds with Satan's little season (Revelation 20) and the removal of the restraint on the mystery of iniquity (2 Thessalonians 2), thus corroborating Amillennialism.
7. It is their mission to torment and destroy before Jesus returns. This is the mission of demons in this day.

Two things here: is the camp of the saints in heaven?

Why are these released to hurt all but the camp of the saints? How is that decieving the nations?

DavidPT · Sep 14, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
I have to disagree. Please read my last post.

Even if the angel given the key and the king of the pit that they are not one and the same, and maybe they are not, all I'm doing right now is entertaining the possibility, but if the angel being given the key is meaning satan though, that would hardly support Amil. Regardless who the angel given the key might be meaning, it seems clear to me that the opening of the pit in Revelation 9 has zero to do with the opening of the pit in Revelation 20 after the thousand years are finished, though.

DavidPT · Sep 14, 2021

Timtofly said:
Two things here: is the camp of the saints in heaven?

Why are these released to hurt all but the camp of the saints? How is that decieving the nations?

This is why Amil makes no sense here. The attack on the camp of saints takes place on the earth, but in Revelation 20:4 Amil per their position has all those martyred saints residing in heaven as departed souls without bodies yet, thus zero connection to the assault on the camp of saints after the thousand years. Per Premil, at least Premil is not causing a total disconnect ofthe martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 with that of satan's little season. The camp of saints being attacked include the martyrs recorded in verse 4.

Timtofly · Sep 14, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
This star/angel that descended from heaven seemed to be on a heavenly assignment to open-up the bottomless pit before the second coming. It would clearly be wrong to view this as a demonic being.

No such thing as a demonic being. Satan is the star that fell so he could unlock his angels that chose to rebel with him. Satan has not been locked up. Satan is not a demonic being, but a created angel. If you keep with the symbolism of how Satan always leaves the heavenlies, you would see this. Satan is the leader of all who choose to destroy the world. All beings who listen to him.

A demon is a human spirit, of a human that is reprobate, and the spirit is now demonized. The Greeks originated the word devil as diabolos meaning accuser. Satan is the chief accuser of all believers. So are all those demons of reprobate humanity.

A spirit is not a being. A spirit is 1/3rd of the make up of a human. Using the term "spiritual being" is as vague as using the word "cloud". Humans are spiritual beings, but have no contact whatsoever with their spirit. All other usages just refer to "air" or "pneuma". Clouds are just different forms of air. Unless one is specific, one is just vaguely describing the firmament, in which God placed the stars, the angels in their natural state. The firmament is their habitation. Genesis 1.

Timtofly · Sep 14, 2021

DavidPT said:
This is why Amil makes no sense here. The attack on the camp of saints takes place on the earth, but in Revelation 20:4 Amil per their position has all those martyred saints residing in heaven as departed souls without bodies yet, thus zero connection to the assault on the camp of saints after the thousand years. Per Premil, at least Premil is not causing a total disconnect ofthe martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 with that of satan's little season. The camp of saints being attacked include the martyrs recorded in verse 4.

I think the 144k who are the ones sealed is that camp of the saints. Yes those resurrected in Revelation 20 are nearby, as they are the ones resurrected to populate the earth. But the 144k are always with Jesus Christ wherever He goes. So these 144k make up the camp of the saints. Since the angels/locust loosed from the pit cannot attack the camp of the saints, ever, even after a thousand years, then Satan can only decieve humans to do his dirty work.

Since by the 7th Trumpet these angels are in heaven attacking God's throne, how can the camp of the saints be in heaven. Being in heaven does not protect them. Being sealed protects them, even on earth. In Revelation 13, they are not literally attacked, but they do retreat from "that camp" on earth for 42 months, until Armageddon, when they come back to then rule for the thousand years.

locusts in the pit vs. satan in the pit--assuming Amil

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