Mutual submission in the early church.

Gregorikos

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I love this and everything Marg does. My question is why anybody pays attention to Grudem?

By what skillful maneuver does he avoid the clear teaching of Scripture in Ephesians 5:21?

And not only that, but I believe this teaches it as well:

If then there is any encouragement in Christ, any consolation from love, any sharing in the Spirit, any compassion and sympathy, make my joy complete: be of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility regard others as better than yourselves. Let each of you look not to your own interests, but to the interests of others. Philippians 2:1-4 (NRSV)
 
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hedrick

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I love this and everything Marg does. My question is why anybody pays attention to Grudem?

By what skillful maneuver does he avoid the clear teaching of Scripture in Ephesians 5:21?

And not only that, but I believe this teaches it as well:

If then there is any encouragement in Christ, any consolation from love, any sharing in the Spirit, any compassion and sympathy, make my joy complete: be of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility regard others as better than yourselves. Let each of you look not to your own interests, but to the interests of others. Philippians 2:1-4 (NRSV)
It would be lovely if Eph taught equality, but it doesn’t. Looking at the whole context, the wife submits, the husband loves her. This is sort of mutual submission, but not in the modern sense. After all, the husband is the head of the wife in the same way that Christ is of us. That kind of headship can never be abusive, given the model of Christ, but it’s still hierarchical.

I have to agree with the many commentators that see Eph as a moderately conservative reinterpretation of Paul, with 1 Tim a much more seriously conservative version.
 
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bekkilyn

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Well look what some publishers do when it comes to Ephesians 5.

Here we have the KJV:

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 5 - King James Version

Note that there are no sub-headers anywhere in the passage in order to create a division.

Now let's look at the NKJV:

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 5 - New King James Version

Ah! Now we have a sub-header splitting verses 15-21 from verses 16-33 creating a division as if verse 21 did not apply to verse 22.

The ESV and the NASB does the same.

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 5 - English Standard Version
Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 5 - New American Standard Bible

Now look at the NRSV and the NIV:

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 5 - New Revised Standard Version
Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 5 - New International Version

These have the sub-header between verses 20 and 21 instead of verses 21 and 22 and therefore creating a different division.

Readers can get entirely different perceptions based on the subtle placements of the sub-headers, none of which were included in the KJV.

(If I keep this up, I'll be forced to join the ranks of the KJVO crowd :) )
 
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Gregorikos

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It would be lovely if Eph taught equality, but it doesn’t. Looking at the whole context, the wife submits, the husband loves her. This is sort of mutual submission, but not in the modern sense. After all, the husband is the head of the wife in the same way that Christ is of us. That kind of headship can never be abusive, given the model of Christ, but it’s still hierarchical.

I have to agree with the many commentators that see Eph as a moderately conservative reinterpretation of Paul, with 1 Tim a much more seriously conservative version.

I don't know what you mean by "reinterpretation", but if you mean Paul didn't write them, I'm more conservative than that. I believe he wrote both Ephesians and 1st Timothy, but I disagree with these commentators you cite.

Ephesians 5:21-6:9 isn't about teaching either equality or hierarchy. There was already a hierarchy in that society. Ephesians 5 no more endorses hierarchy in marriage than chapter 6 endorses human slavery. Those features were firmly embedded in the culture of that time, and Paul was making reference to the common "household codes" of Aristotle, which addressed 3 sets of relationships in the Greco-Roman family- husband and wife, parents and children, and masters and slaves, as Paul does here and in Colossians 3. Any Bible commentator who doesn't know that, or doesn't teach them in that light is missing the obvious cultural context behind the passage and isn't likely to give a valid interpretation.
 
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royal priest

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Note: this is in the Egalitarian forum.

Quite a worthwhile read:
Mutual Submission in Early Christian Writings - Marg Mowczko
Jesus was the best example of this and requires a servant-like disposition even from the highest ranking officials in His church. A good husband leads his wife in this manner.
Luke 22:24-27
Now there was also a dispute among them, as to which of them should be considered the greatest. And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those who exercise authority over them are called ‘benefactors.’ But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greatest among you, let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves. For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves.
 
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Gregorikos

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Jesus was the best example of this and requires a servant-like disposition even from the highest ranking officials in His church. A good husband leads his wife in this manner.
Luke 22:24-27
Now there was also a dispute among them, as to which of them should be considered the greatest. And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those who exercise authority over them are called ‘benefactors.’ But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greatest among you, let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves. For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves.

Where is "leader" mentioned in that passage?
 
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royal priest

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Where is "leader" mentioned in that passage?
Jesus, the King of kings and Lord of lords is mentioning kings. He mentions how they lead in contrast to how He leads in order to teach the leaders of the church how they ought to lead.
 
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Gregorikos

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Jesus, the King of kings and Lord of lords is mentioning kings. He mentions how they lead in contrast to how He leads in order to teach the leaders of the church how they ought to lead.

And he specifically said his followers weren't to be that way. "Not so among you." They weren't to be as kings, they were to be as servants.
 
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royal priest

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And he specifically said his followers weren't to be that way. "Not so among you." They weren't to be as kings, they were to be as servants.
Specifically, they were not to rule as Gentile kings as if there were no living God which ruled over them. The Kingdom of Heaven is enigmatic in that the greater ranking subjects are marked by greater humility. Jesus, the best example of humility, is worthy of perfect submission, yet He praises His disciples in spite of their paltry efforts and carries out the humblest task of washing their feet for them.
 
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Gregorikos

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Specifically, they were not to rule as Gentile kings as if there were no living God which ruled over them. The Kingdom of Heaven is enigmatic in that the greater ranking subjects are marked by greater humility. Jesus, the best example of humility, is worthy of perfect submission, yet He praises His disciples in spite of their paltry efforts and carries out the humblest task of washing their feet for them.

The verb "to be" in that passage is telling them to be as the younger, and the one who serves. There is nothing in that passage telling his disciples to be leaders. Servants yes.
 
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royal priest

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The verb "to be" in that passage is telling them to be as the younger, and the one who serves.
That is the enigma of Jesus' kingdom. These men were to carry out their roles as the highest ranking officials in Christ's church with the humility befitting the lowest ranking.
 
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Gregorikos

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That is the enigma of Jesus' kingdom. These men were to carry out their roles as the highest ranking officials in Christ's church with the humility befitting the lowest ranking.

As servants. Not merely with the humility befitting a servant. But as a servant.

And in all this you are assuming the Bible assigns the husband a leadership position over the wife. Which is not the case.

And remember: this is the Egalitarian Forum. That last point I made is not up for debate here.
 
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royal priest

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As servants. Not merely with the humility befitting a servant. But as a servant.

And in all this you are assuming the Bible assigns the husband a leadership position over the wife. Which is not the case.

And remember: this is the Egalitarian Forum. That last point I made is not up for debate here.
Paul leads the church when he tells husbands they are the head over their wife just as Christ is the head over the church.
Peter leads the church when he tells wives to submit to their husbands as godly Sara did when she referred to Abraham as 'lord'
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Paul leads the church when he tells husbands they are the head over their wife just as Christ is the head over the church.
Peter leads the church when he tells wives to submit to their husbands as godly Sara did when she referred to Abraham as 'lord'
Egalitarian forum doesn’t mean wishful thinking forum. The belief is well founded.

Christ planted the seeds of mutuality in marriage and of empowering women and children and the underling.

“Christ left an example, that you should follow in his steps. ‘He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.’ When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly…now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls”, 1 Peter 2:21-25​

“In like manner…”

Paul used the Greek word “hupotasso” for what is rendered “subject or submit” and is a Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader”.

OR

In non-military use,it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden". Hupotasso Meaning in Bible - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

Using the military definition of the word “The wife stands behind her husband in all things when her husband stands behind Christ”.

In the non-military meaning, “a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden.”

In relationship to family “A wife cooperates and assumes responsibility with her husband to carry their burden with Christ.” Ephesians 5:22-24

“Husbands, dwell with your spouse according to the gospel knowledge. This knowledge that you have, I want you to honour the wife, because you will be heirs together in the grace of life.” 1 Peter 3:7​

After singling out slaves and exhorting them to be submissive to their masters and patiently endure unjust punishment Peter then moved on to Christian wives who had unsaved husbands. Wives that were seeking to win husbands to the Lord Jesus.

They were going about it the wrong way and Peter corrected them in that. Those husbands were not people who would listen to reason about the gospel so the best sermon was preached by example.

Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behaviour of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 1 Peter 3:1-2​

The pious living being promoted didn't depend on outer adornment to effect the change like they did before they were saved. They were instructed not to appeal to their husband's depraved nature to try to convert them to Christ. 1 Peter 3:3-4

Kosmos - adornment - is the opposite of chaos. Her adornment was to be in keeping with her Christian status. Knowing oneself in one's new nature, the character that proceeds from the heart. So in keeping with her Christian status the way was to confront the husband not with the world but with the Saviour so as not to feed his sin nature but rather appeal to the unbeliever’s conscience from the inner spiritual being. Romans 12:2

No one can serve 2 masters. The term lord referred to near relatives, father, mother etc while John uses the same Greek word to refer to the 'elect lady' in his epistle. "As long as the believing wives are doing good, they need not be afraid with any sudden terror of the account which their unbelieving husbands may exact from them" 1 Peter 3:6-7

Since my opinion is that Paul placed himself in the role of the Heavenly Father to formulate his revelation of Christ and the church as His bride to Himself as Husband, I believe that to be about spiritual fruitfulness compared to spiritual barrenness. The Father would have that we all bear spiritual children for Him. Not to do so would imply deadness, lack of usefulness to God’s plan. Paul detailed that to include himself by referring to his own spiritual children.

Ye shall no longer call me master but shall call me husband. The mastering of the world was complete in the golden age of Babylon, referred to as the king of kings. Lose of mastery came in stages with finally iron attempting to mix with clay.

The King of kings and the Lord of lords came forth as the redeemer and shepherd of the soul, a solid rock to build on, who's strength crushes the many into dust and makes one of His own.

God used one woman Tamar to bring in the scarlet thread in the line of Judah,
one woman Hannah to inagurate the Nazarite,
one woman Ruth to reconcile kinship,
one woman Mary to produce the promise in human form.
and one woman Priscila to give the high priestly interpretation.

Consider that well.
 
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royal priest

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Egalitarian forum doesn’t mean wishful thinking forum. The belief is well founded.

Christ planted the seeds of mutuality in marriage and of empowering women and children and the underling.

“Christ left an example, that you should follow in his steps. ‘He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.’ When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly…now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls”, 1 Peter 2:21-25​

“In like manner…”

Paul used the Greek word “hupotasso” for what is rendered “subject or submit” and is a Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader”.

OR

In non-military use,it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden". Hupotasso Meaning in Bible - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

Using the military definition of the word “The wife stands behind her husband in all things when her husband stands behind Christ”.

In the non-military meaning, “a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden.”

In relationship to family “A wife cooperates and assumes responsibility with her husband to carry their burden with Christ.” Ephesians 5:22-24

“Husbands, dwell with your spouse according to the gospel knowledge. This knowledge that you have, I want you to honour the wife, because you will be heirs together in the grace of life.” 1 Peter 3:7​

After singling out slaves and exhorting them to be submissive to their masters and patiently endure unjust punishment Peter then moved on to Christian wives who had unsaved husbands. Wives that were seeking to win husbands to the Lord Jesus.

They were going about it the wrong way and Peter corrected them in that. Those husbands were not people who would listen to reason about the gospel so the best sermon was preached by example.

Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behaviour of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 1 Peter 3:1-2​

The pious living being promoted didn't depend on outer adornment to effect the change like they did before they were saved. They were instructed not to appeal to their husband's depraved nature to try to convert them to Christ. 1 Peter 3:3-4

Kosmos - adornment - is the opposite of chaos. Her adornment was to be in keeping with her Christian status. Knowing oneself in one's new nature, the character that proceeds from the heart. So in keeping with her Christian status the way was to confront the husband not with the world but with the Saviour so as not to feed his sin nature but rather appeal to the unbeliever’s conscience from the inner spiritual being. Romans 12:2

No one can serve 2 masters. The term lord referred to near relatives, father, mother etc while John uses the same Greek word to refer to the 'elect lady' in his epistle. "As long as the believing wives are doing good, they need not be afraid with any sudden terror of the account which their unbelieving husbands may exact from them" 1 Peter 3:6-7

Since my opinion is that Paul placed himself in the role of the Heavenly Father to formulate his revelation of Christ and the church as His bride to Himself as Husband, I believe that to be about spiritual fruitfulness compared to spiritual barrenness. The Father would have that we all bear spiritual children for Him. Not to do so would imply deadness, lack of usefulness to God’s plan. Paul detailed that to include himself by referring to his own spiritual children.

Ye shall no longer call me master but shall call me husband. The mastering of the world was complete in the golden age of Babylon, referred to as the king of kings. Lose of mastery came in stages with finally iron attempting to mix with clay.

The King of kings and the Lord of lords came forth as the redeemer and shepherd of the soul, a solid rock to build on, who's strength crushes the many into dust and makes one of His own.

God used one woman Tamar to bring in the scarlet thread in the line of Judah,
one woman Hannah to inagurate the Nazarite,
one woman Ruth to reconcile kinship,
one woman Mary to produce the promise in human form.
and one woman Priscila to give the high priestly interpretation.

Consider that well.
As long as we know our Shepherd's voice and humbly follow wherever He leads.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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As long as we know our Shepherd's voice and humbly follow wherever He leads.
Isaiah 50:8
The One who vindicates Me is near. Who will dare to contend with Me? Let us confront each other! Who has a case against Me? Let him approach Me!
Luke 18:7
Will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry out to Him day and night? Will He continue to defer their help?
Romans 8:32
He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us.…​

I’m really at a loss to determine what justifies some to believe that they have rights that Christ Himself clung not to. His high calling was to set people free, not to enslave them to others using His Good Name to do so. The Jubilee was never just for some and not for others. The time of restoration is only withheld by those who place themselves above Christ’s work in glorifying their own misunderstood beliefs of divinity within themselves that has no correlation to Who Christ is to humanity. Free will being the defining character trait.
 
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Halbhh

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Well look what some publishers do when it comes to Ephesians 5.

Here we have the KJV:

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 5 - King James Version

Note that there are no sub-headers anywhere in the passage in order to create a division.

Now let's look at the NKJV:

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 5 - New King James Version

Ah! Now we have a sub-header splitting verses 15-21 from verses 16-33 creating a division as if verse 21 did not apply to verse 22.

The ESV and the NASB does the same.

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 5 - English Standard Version
Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 5 - New American Standard Bible

Now look at the NRSV and the NIV:

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 5 - New Revised Standard Version
Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 5 - New International Version

These have the sub-header between verses 20 and 21 instead of verses 21 and 22 and therefore creating a different division.

Readers can get entirely different perceptions based on the subtle placements of the sub-headers, none of which were included in the KJV.

(If I keep this up, I'll be forced to join the ranks of the KJVO crowd :) )

Well, a passage grouping chosen by a group, and a given a heading, is just a way to make passages, and can matter if one reads only the passage.

But if we are reading with a more full listening, we will be reading through fully, so we will not miss verse 21.

We will totally encounter verse 21!

And then we will know verse 21 is real/true. Applies all the time. And 22 won't seem as if it somehow escapes the reality of 21.

Therefore, if I had to paraphrase 22 personally for someone like myself, I might paraphrase it in halbhh language as "Women use your (often) superior ability to establish harmony (or cooperation) by putting certain responsibilities onto a man when he is present, so that he can do his fair share of the work according to his abilities, remembering that each person is individual. In other words, share responsibilities, and don't take all responsibilities onto yourself alone."
Or just: "Divide tasks, and don't try to control/argue past he boundary into the other person's domain of tasks." (that each individual pair of people will have some unique configuration actually) Something like that.

Put simply, verse 22 doesn't cancel verse 21. Also, verse 21 is clearly timeless, while 22 could from general context of other epistles be another one of those 1 Corinthians 8, Romans 14 kind of things, the temporary aid to the 'weak' who are prejudiced or not yet in full understand that there is neither greek nor jew, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female, but all are one in Christ.
 
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Well, a passage grouping chosen by a group, and a given a heading, is just a way to make passages, and can matter if one reads only the passage.

But if we are reading with a more full listening, we will be reading through fully, so we will not miss verse 21.

We will totally encounter verse 21!

And then we will know verse 21 is real/true. Applies all the time. And 22 won't seem as if it somehow escapes the reality of 21.

Therefore, if I had to paraphrase 22 personally for someone like myself, I might paraphrase it in halbhh language as "Women use your (often) superior ability to establish harmony (or cooperation) by putting certain responsibilities onto a man when he is present, so that he can do his fair share of the work according to his abilities, remembering that each person is individual. In other words, share responsibilities, and don't take all responsibilities onto yourself alone."
Or just: "Divide tasks, and don't try to control/argue past he boundary into the other person's domain of tasks." (that each individual pair of people will have some unique configuration actually) Something like that.
No kidding, if physician heal thyself refers to one it applies to all. Christ’s ability knows no gender.
 
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