How To Prove God's Existence To An Atheist

I remember studying Christian apologetics; ie. Proofs of the existence of G-d from reason. If I had not been a Christian already none of them would have convinced me. It is relationships combined with G-d's grace that converts.
In LOve
Jay Sea

Davy said:

I agree that we as God's servants can only plant seeds, and that only God can make them grow. The example of Hebrews 11:3 will lead to doing exactly that. Furthermore, rightly understanding how that law of thermodynamics exists that scientifically proves this material universe didn't create itself, leads to knowing that God exists.

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The Big Bang theory and Cosmic Inflation do not postulate that the universe created itself, FYI, and I don’t see what your point in mentioning the Thermodynamics was (what law, by the way?). Rather, a zero-dimensional point of infinite mass and energy expanded, eventually producing matter, and the rate of expansion has varied over time, due to inflation events in which the rate of the expansion of the universe temporarily accelerated greatly; at present, Dark Energy is causing the universe to continue to expand at an accelerating rate, and in roughly a few octillion years, give or take some orders of magnitude, after the end of the stelliferous era in 100 trillion years, and the evaporation of black holes into Hawking radition, this universe, if God has not destroyed it or radically altered it, will, according to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, reach a point of maximum entropy, known as the Heat Death of the universe, and there will be only protons.

There is still room for God in all this - as the creator of spacetime and of these physics. However, we need to be careful to avoid bad science.

Jipsah said:

I'd be equally keen to see you prove that the earth is flat from the Bible. I can't locate that Scripture anywhere.

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I found in my career that the Bible is of little help when you're working with complex electronics, and I'm compleely sold on the non-flat and far from stationary model or the cosmos that allows us such novelties as celestial navigation.

But you're right, it's very difficult to persuade atheists, or almost anyone else, to embrace the Christian Faith when your sales pitch requires them to accept ideas about God's creation that even the ancient Church didn't believe.[/QUOTE]

My grandfather was an avionics engineer, and I have worked in IT to support my seminary education, during the gap in my career after I left my former denomination because I believe, contrary to their advertisements, that we should never insert a comma where God intended a period, I worked in it exclusively at a high level, and still do, mainly systems programming and embedded development with open source operating systems, particularly the BSDs, as a way of supporting my liturgical ministries.

Jay Sea said:

I remember studying Christian apologetics; ie. Proofs of the existence of G-d from reason. If I had not been a Christian already none of them would have convinced me. It is relationships combined with G-d's grace that converts.
In LOve
Jay Sea

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The thing is though that it’s relative to each person as to which things they consider to be convincing evidence or not. Funny, I’ll sometimes believe the same exact thing as someone else, yet I’ll still roll my eyes at what convinced that person to believe such a thing lol. And I’m sure they would think the same exact thing about my reasoning (as I have even seen it in some people’s eyes when I have told them my reasons).

Davy said:

Man does not need to know the 'methods' of God's Power to 'know' that material matter did not create itself, and thus something of a different dimension did. It is up to each person to choose whether to believe that something is our Heavenly Father, or not. So questioning His methods simply is not a valid argument against the scientific proof just by the fact that matter did not, and cannot create itself.

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No, he does not. But many do not accept what God is saying through the creation. People deliberately reject the evidence and that's why it is impossible to "prove" the reality of God to an atheist. It's nearly as frustrating as trying to convince a flat earther that the world is a sphere.

Davy said:

God has setup this present world this way for a reason. If He simply revealed Himself to everyone like Lord Jesus did with Apostle Paul on the road to Damascus in Acts 9, then there would be no requirement of Faith.

He gave us His written Word of His existence through His servants that are witnesses. And remember Lord Jesus said this to Apostle Thomas that saw Him at His 1st coming and after His resurrection...

John 20:28-29
28 And Thomas answered and said unto Him, "My Lord and my God."

29 Jesus saith unto him, "Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
KJV


The amazing thing is, and I definitely understand why God does it, is that until one has Faith on Him and His Son, He won't reveal the really good answers to our many questions of why we are here, and what this present world is all about.

Truly, why should He reveal the answers for one who seeks their own way, and doubts His existence, and refuses the witnesses He sent?

For those who do believe on Him and His Son though, it's like Lord Jesus told His disciples in Matthew 13 when they asked why Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables. Jesus told them they had spiritual eyes to see, and ears to hear, and were blessed, because it was given to them to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. But, those in the Faith are still to study God's Word like Apostle Paul said in 2 Timothy 2:15 to be part of that. Otherwise they default to the 'milk' of God's Word, and never find out about those mysteries of His Kingdom that Lord Jesus mentioned.

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Even if we could convince an atheist that there is a G-d how do we prove that G-d is a relatable person orientated G-d and that he spoke only to Jews and Christians and that he is not also a G-d of all religions from primitive man onwards up until now. I don't see How.
In LOve
Jay Sea

Deep down atheists know there is a God, but that they suppress the truth is what Romans chapter 1 tells us, not that they don't know. It is traumatic to know there is a God when one is in living in rebellion, this is repressed, but in the end none of us is going to be able to say to God, "Well I just didn't know you existed."

"Because that which may be known of God is manifested in them; for God hath shewed it unto them..." (Romans 1:19 and following verses)

I am not great at apologetics or evangelism, but I believe its true what Francis Schaeffer said, atheists do not live consistently with their atheism, and this is because they are still made in the image of God.


How one begins with any atheist will depend on the atheist and were he / she is at - they might be struggling or they might be arrogant and give the impression of being sure of themselves. Some however are probably unsure of their atheism at times, just as christians can at times have doubts about christianity. Maybe they believed in God earlier in their life, one has to be sensitive and hear something of their story.

There are some charts I have seen of stages from total atheism to christian conversion and what the Holy Spirit is doing, and how christians can help, whether to pray, be there with the person etc, answer questions or objections about Christianity, testify, invite them to church, share the Gospel etc.

engel scale - Bing images

engel scale - Bing images (Modified)

I thought that second chart / description of stages interesting, but "healthcare worker" seems like odd terminology to me, however christians are spiritual "midwifes" of a sort. However I'd like to read more about those stages and the christians role. I think the most important thing is the Holy Spirit's action. But I also think Evangelism is best done through a local church.

If you want proofs of God, try Islam.

God doesn't save skeptics, who in their claims of wisdom have made themselves fools.

It is through the foolishness of preaching that God has chosen to save those who believe. Not fancy philosophy, nor argumentation. Simply a declaration of naked truth.

Because God's existence needs no justification. It is creation that is contingent, not God.

So boldly declare the gospel, and let God defend it.

Davy said:

As long as the atheist then keeps defaulting to this material world as being how this world came into existence, by that they are trying to disprove that basic fixed natural law of physics that matter can neither be created nor destroyed.

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Good point "everything came from nothing" is not science at all.

1. It cannot be repeated
2. It cannot be observed
3. It conserves nothing
4. Like all fairy tales - it can only be imagined.

"And this is key" as Romans 1 points out that even pagans and atheists have a certain "Conviction" they cannot shake since the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD" and NOT "just Christians".

Rom 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened.

Millions of atheists have converted to Christianity as a result.

Every atheists who sees your laptop computer knows that dust,gas and rocks did not "make that laptop". And many of them know a single cell is far more complex than a laptop.

So there is a "starting point". And while "quoting Romans 1" to them will mean nothing - it is handy to know that the Romans 1 thing is going on "in their head" nonetheless.

Atheist helpline - the atheist "helper" trying to make "more happy atheists" admits that after 50 years of being atheists these people still wake up with nightmares about hell.

atheist help line number one complaint fear of hell - Bing video

dms1972 said:

Deep down atheists know there is a God, but that they suppress the truth is what Romans chapter 1 tells us, not that they don't know. It is traumatic to know there is a God when one is in living in rebellion, this is repressed, but in the end none of us is going to be able to say to God, "Well I just didn't know you existed."

"Because that which may be known of God is manifested in them; for God hath shewed it unto them..." (Romans 1:19 and following verses)

I am not great at apologetics or evangelism, but I believe its true what Francis Schaeffer said, atheists do not live consistently with their atheism, and this is because they are still made in the image of God.


How one begins with any atheist will depend on the atheist and were he / she is at - they might be struggling or they might be arrogant and give the impression of being sure of themselves. Some however are probably unsure of their atheism at times, just as christians can at times have doubts about christianity. Maybe they believed in God earlier in their life, one has to be sensitive and hear something of their story.

There are some charts I have seen of stages from total atheism to christian conversion and what the Holy Spirit is doing, and how christians can help, whether to pray, be there with the person etc, answer questions or objections about Christianity, testify, invite them to church, share the Gospel etc.

engel scale - Bing images

engel scale - Bing images (Modified)

I thought that second chart / description of stages interesting, but "healthcare worker" seems like odd terminology to me, however Christians are spiritual "midwifes" of a sort. However I'd like to read more about those stages and the Christians role. I think the most important thing is the Holy Spirit's action. But I also think Evangelism is best done through a local church.

Click to expand...

I think Paul is wrong in that the knowledge of G-d is not plain to see particularly at the time Paul was writing and even today it is not obvious. I cannot believe that all non-Christians are knowingly rejecting G-d.
In Love
Jay Sea

Jay Sea said:

I think Paul is wrong in that the knowledge of G-d is not plain to see particularly at the time Paul was writing and even today it is not obvious. I cannot believe that all non-Christians are knowingly rejecting G-d.
In Love
Jay Sea

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Dangerous territory, my fellow Aussie. I think that the point Paul is making is that God reveals himself in creation, and as we see and respond to that so we regain our authentic vocation. In 1 Corinthians 13 he makes the point 'now we see in a glass, darkly, then we shall see face to face.

The point of Romans is that even for those who have not heard the gospel, they have been asked to respond to that which has been seen and declared.

As Australians, we know that the glorious liberation of the people of God was first declared here accompanied by men in chains, and the text of the sermon was 'how good Lord to be here'. Yet we know that the Spirit of God was here long before, whistling the the gumtrees and winding through the anthills, and whispering in the stories of the dreamtime.

So I absolutely affirm the sentence, 'I cannot believe that all non-Christians are knowingly rejecting G-d.', and I really think that is the point that Paul was makes, though it may not be immediately apparent in Romans 1 in isolation.

Jay Sea said:

I remember studying Christian apologetics; ie. Proofs of the existence of G-d from reason. If I had not been a Christian already none of them would have convinced me. It is relationships combined with G-d's grace that converts.
In LOve
Jay Sea

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The thing about apologetics is it isn't about proving God, but proving that belief in God is reasonable. Proving God is impossible because God is an ontological ground, the basic brute fact by which all other things are interpreted. Evidence follows ontology, and so the best we can do is prove that God either exists or is impossible which the logical proofs accomplish. If someone assumes God impossible, there is no rectifying that assumption through argument because everything that follows is deemed contradictory evidence.

Atheists are the most misled.

1) I often ask them back. If God is proved then how can you be saved when the covenant between God and men clearly says that humans need faith to be saved?
If God is proved to you, it simultaneously means that "you can no longer be savable". If so why should God let you prove His existence, even if He does exist?

2) In Chinese history, Confucius had 3000 apprentices. How can this piece of info be proved? The answer is, you can't. Such a piece of historical info, even when it is true, can only reach today's humans by means of testimony instead of proof. It is so because humans lack the ability to prove such a kind of historical truth. Similarly, God is all about testimonies from those who encountered Him as eyewitnesses (as a side note: atheists will ask how can those eyewitnesses be saved when they already have the proof of God). So even when God is true, the only way for such a truth to be conveyed to today's humans is by means of testimony, which is the Bible (similar to the Chinese history book recording the 3000 apprentice of Confucius). That's the only legit way for such a kind of truth to convey to today's humans.

3) If God show up publicly for all humans all the times to know Him, it thus violates the basic requirement of the covenant in place for humans to be redeemed. On the other hand, if He doesn't show up at all, no humans even know the existence of such a covenant. The only way for humans to be informed of this covenant with its requirements (such as saved by faith) is again by means of human testimonies (i.e., the Bible).

4) Basically humans lack two basic abilities, 1) they can't tell a future and 2) they can't break the known physics laws governing this universe. God thus confirms His identity, His messages and His authentication on the chosen eyewitnesses (i.e., His chosen prophets) by means of prophecies and miracles.

5) If God doesn't have a crucial message for humans, this God can be ignored as His existence has nothing to do with humans. However if this God has a critical message for humans, His message must be mankind facing. As an analogy, if the US government has a crucial message for the states, it has to broadcast the message to all the states of America, not just one or two states. The explicit command from Jesus is for the "good news" to be preached to all nations. That's the effort of Christianity since day one it is brought to existence. In comparison, Islam is limited within middle east as it demands unbelievers to be killed instead of being preached. Hinduism is limited to India. Buddhism doesn't have any explicit command to preach it, while its "holy book" is written in a form for those who "have special wisdom" to read. They are never mankind facing as Christianity is. Thus their gods can be ignored, either they don't exist or their existence doesn't concern humans.

6) Now if God is true, let's assume so for the sake of argument, how can this truth be conveyed to humans along history till now? The only way is to preach (broadcast) the good news (testimonies) to all mankind by employing a religion (as the media for broadcasting such CNN). You can actually let the atheists to nominate an alternative if this is not the only way.


Atheists are brainwashed to think that everything is conveyed as a science and can be proved but in reality proof only comes scarcely if it's not a science. Science can easily be conveyed as a proof simply because science is about a repeatable phenomenon which is available to be tested on infinitively. In reality science is just a very limited set of truth. They are misled (I can tell that it's by Satan) to think that everything can be proved or evidenced, this is however never true in reality. I often ask them to prove that they ever had eggs before the age of two, as the only way humans can get to this is by means of the testimony of their own mother.

I think the heart of the issue here is this:

1 Cor 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

I do believe that this means that if this Atheist effectively resists the Holy Spirit, then he has no way of believing.

Jay Sea said:

I remember studying Christian apologetics; ie. Proofs of the existence of G-d from reason. If I had not been a Christian already none of them would have convinced me. It is relationships combined with G-d's grace that converts.
In LOve
Jay Sea

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Millions of Atheists have converted to Christianity and it is not because as Atheists they already had a kindly/loving/friendly relationship with God.

andreha said:

I do believe that this means that if this Atheist effectively resists the Holy Spirit, then he has no way of believing.

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Paul in his prior life as Saul was "in effect" resisting the Holy Spirit - until he didn't.