Are there further chances after death?

Saint Steven · Sep 11, 2021

Hmm said:
I guess you could say it would be "enjoying" your neighbour

Yes. Nothing more friendly than having the neighbors for dinner. - lol

Hmm · Sep 11, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Yes. Nothing more friendly than having the neighbors for dinner. - lol

I've identified an extremely tenuous excuse for a Douglas Adams quote so although it's off-topic please bear with me... It's about a cow that has been bred to want to be eaten. In the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe trilogy of four books, the gang has settled down for dinner at the Restaurant at the End of the Universe:

”[Ford] sat down.

The waiter approached.

"Would you like to see the menu?" he said, "or would you like to meet the Dish of the Day?"

"Huh?" said Ford.

"Huh?" said Arthur.

"Huh?" said Trillian.

"That's cool," said Zaphod, "we'll meet the meat."

...

A large dairy animal approached Zaphod Beeblebrox's table, a large fat meaty quadruped of the bovine type with large watery eyes, small horns and what might almost have been an ingratiating smile on its lips.

"Good evening," it lowed and sat back heavily on its haunches, "I am the main Dish of the Day. May I interest you in the parts of my body?"

It harrumphed and gurgled a bit, wriggled its hind quarters into a more comfortable position and gazed peacefully at them.

Its gaze was met by looks of startled bewilderment from Arthur and Trillian, a resigned shrug from Ford Prefect and naked hunger from Zaphod Beeblebrox.

"Something off the shoulder perhaps?" suggested the animal, "braised in a white wine sauce?"

"Er, your shoulder?" said Arthur in a horrified whisper.

"But naturally my shoulder, sir," mooed the animal contentedly, "nobody else's is mine to offer."

Zaphod leapt to his feet and started prodding and feeling the animal's shoulder appreciatively.

"Or the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is very good," murmured the animal. "I've been exercising it and eating plenty of grain, so there's a lot of good meat there."

It gave a mellow grunt, gurgled again and started to chew the cud. It swallowed the cud again.

"Or a casserole of me perhaps?" it added.

"You mean this animal actually wants us to eat it?" whispered Trillian to Ford.

"Me?" said Ford, with a glazed look in his eyes, "I don't mean anything."

"That's absolutely horrible," exclaimed Arthur, "the most revolting thing I've ever heard."

"What's the problem Earthman?" said Zaphod, now transferring his attention to the animal's enormous [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].

"I just don't want to eat an animal that's standing there inviting me to," said Arthur, "It's heartless."

"Better than eating an animal that doesn't want to be eaten," said Zaphod.

"That's not the point," Arthur protested. Then he thought about it for a moment. "Alright," he said, "maybe it is the point. I don't care, I'm not going to think about it now. I'll just... er [...] I think I'll just have a green salad," he muttered.

"May I urge you to consider my liver?" asked the animal, "it must be very rich and tender by now, I've been force-feeding myself for months."

"A green salad," said Arthur emphatically.

"A green salad?" said the animal, rolling his eyes disapprovingly at Arthur.

"Are you going to tell me," said Arthur, "that I shouldn't have green salad?"

"Well," said the animal, "I know many vegetables that are very clear on that point. Which is why it was eventually decided to cut through the whole tangled problem and breed an animal that actually wanted to be eaten and was capable of saying so clearly and distinctly. And here I am."

It managed a very slight bow.

"Glass of water please," said Arthur.

"Look," said Zaphod, "we want to eat, we don't want to make a meal of the issues. Four rare stakes please, and hurry. We haven't eaten in five hundred and seventy-six thousand million years."

The animal staggered to its feet. It gave a mellow gurgle. "A very wise choice, sir, if I may say so. Very good," it said, "I'll just nip off and shoot myself."

He turned and gave a friendly wink to Arthur. "Don't worry, sir," he said, "I'll be very humane."

It waddled unhurriedly off to the kitchen.

@Der Alte insists that I quote my sources so this is from The Restaurant at the End of the Universe, Chapter 17.

Faith Unites · Sep 11, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Try this on for size. (BTW: "the many" = all)

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Pauls talking to Jews here. All is 2 groups. 1 group is the group born under the law (Jews) and the other group was not (gentiles). Both groups are sinners but now even the gentiles can find salvation. He is not saying every single person will be saved

Faith Unites · Sep 11, 2021

Hmm said:
Other scripture is universalist though, or at least I can't think of an alternative explanation, such as these verses from the OP:

this goes both ways, and as for the rest Hebrews 9:27 disagrees

Hmm · Sep 11, 2021

Faith Unites said:
this goes both ways, and as for the rest Hebrews 9:27 disagrees

I did ask for a non-universalist explanation, not a bald assertion of what's true or not...

Hmm · Sep 11, 2021

Der Alte said:
Your one verse should harmonize with, not ignore, the 25 verses I quoted.

It's not a numbers game otherwise I could just post 26 universalist verses. It's the meaning that's important and that can only be gleaned by reading them through the lens of Christ. If you see eternal conscious torment when looking through that lens then all I can say is good luck with that

Saint Steven · Sep 11, 2021

Faith Unites said:
Pauls talking to Jews here. All is 2 groups. 1 group is the group born under the law (Jews) and the other group was not (gentiles). Both groups are sinners but now even the gentiles can find salvation. He is not saying every single person will be saved

Nope.
Why split to two groups with Adam?
There is a "just as" and "so also" for each verse.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Try this on for size. (BTW: "the many" = all)

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Der Alte · Sep 11, 2021

Saint Steven said:
* * *

Nope.

Saint Steven said:
Why split to two groups with Adam?
There is a "just as" and "so also" for each verse.
Saint Steven said: ↑
Try this on for size. (BTW: "the many" = all)

Saint Steven said:
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Paul used the word " πολλοι/polloi"/"many," 71 times.
Paul used the word "πας/pas"/"all," 375 times
When Paul wanted to say “all” he used "pas," not "polloi"/”many.”
Paul used “oi polloi”/”the many” 12 times where it clearly does not mean "all."
Romans 12:5,
Romans 15:22-23,
Romans 16:2,
1 Corinthians 10:17,
1 Corinthians 10:33,
2 Corinthians 2:17,
2 Corinthians 8:15,
Ephesians 2:4,
Colossians 4:13,
1 Timothy 3:13
In one verse 1 Cor 10:33 Paul used “the many,” once, and “all,” twice, in the same verse.

1 Corinthians 10:33
33 Even as I please all [παντα] men in all [πασιν] things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many [των πολλων], that they may be saved.

Paul certainly did not please every person alive during his lifetime.
Paul certainly did not please all men in literally all things.

Faith Unites · Sep 11, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Nope.
Why split to two groups with Adam?
There is a "just as" and "so also" for each verse.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Try this on for size. (BTW: "the many" = all)

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

If you toss out the context you can make the Bible say anything you want

Der Alte · Sep 11, 2021

Hmm said:
It's not a numbers game otherwise I could just post 26 universalist verses. It's the meaning that's important and that can only be gleaned by reading them through the lens of Christ. If you see eternal conscious torment when looking through that lens then all I can say is good luck with that

Here is what I see when I "read through the lens of Christ."
Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” certainly does not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, Acts of the apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..RRe: Matthew 25:46 one early church father wrote, concerning “punishment”,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity,Judith xvi. 17" which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs in “hell”?
When I look through the lens of Jesus Christ I do not read where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, said that "All mankind will be saved, the righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death" or words to that affect.

Derf · Sep 12, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Interesting about the Jewish Feast. Thanks.

Of course, there could be other usages of the term, which you’ve found in your search, but the primary fulfillment of the feast was Christ’s rising from the dead.

Saint Steven said:
Interesting about the Jewish Feast. Thanks.

It's not one, or the other, but both. Yes, Christ is the firstfruits of those raised from the realm of the dead. But in the "each in turn" verse, the firstfruits come next. Which is what it clearly says. A Bible search on the term firstfruits shows it is used to refer to many things.

Romans 8:23
Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

Romans 11:16
If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

1 Corinthians 15:20
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:23
But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
Stand Firm
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

Revelation 14:4
These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

Those verses each have there own context. The context of 1Cor 15:20 AND 23 is that Jesus Christ is the firstfruits from the dead. The next, both here and 1Th 4 is those that belong to Christ, which will rise at His coming. Lastly, all the rest of the dead, because He will raise them up, too.

Hmm · Sep 12, 2021

Der Alte said:
When I look through the lens of Jesus Christ I do not read where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, said that "All mankind will be saved, the righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death" or words to that affect.

Let's take this verse from the OP:

Hmm said:
for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:22

In what way does this not mean that "All mankind will be saved, the righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death"? I would genuinely like to know.

By reading a verse through the lens of Christ I mean asking yourself if the meaning you're ascribing to it, however informed that may be by scholars and theologians, is consistent with the image of God as perfectly revealed in Jesus. If you don't see anything wrong in the picture of Jesus alongside eternal torment then, as I say, good luck with that, but if you do think there's something wrong then you can always change it by perhaps looking at alternative scholarship.

Saint Steven · Sep 12, 2021

Faith Unites said:
If you toss out the context you can make the Bible say anything you want

That saw cuts both ways.

If you broaden the context far enough, you can make a verse mean what you want it to mean despite what it clearly says, and then claim what it clearly says is out of context.

Ultimately, it is a matter of presuppositions. We see what we are looking for. And argue against differing presuppositions.

In the world, those with differing views are considered colleagues. In the church, those with differing views are considered enemies.

Saint Steven · Sep 12, 2021

Derf said:
Those verses each have there own context. The context of 1Cor 15:20 AND 23 is that Jesus Christ is the firstfruits from the dead. The next, both here and 1Th 4 is those that belong to Christ, which will rise at His coming. Lastly, all the rest of the dead, because He will raise them up, too.

Wait... you are using "context" to deny what the verse clearly says. Christ CANNOT be the firstfruits in a verse that lists the firstfruits separately. Otherwise firstfruits is listed TWICE in a sequence. That makes no sense, right?

1 Corinthians 15:23
But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Hmm · Sep 12, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Ultimately, it is a matter of presuppositions. We see what we are looking for. And argue against differing presuppositions.

I think that's true and I think often people find themselves in a church where they struggle to accept certain doctrines like ECT because they know in their heart that it isn't right. Their way out, if they do manage to find a way out, is either to find a denomination that suits them better or simply to leave the church altogether. I've been to a few Quaker meetings and they are full of people who couldn't swallow certain teachings that they were subject to, ECT probably being the chief culprit. It's hard to know exactly why we believe what we do but I think intellectual argument is probably responsible for only a very small part of it. Your intellectual understanding still has to be right though because if you're being asked to believe something that is impossible for you to do so it can really screw you up. And on the contrary, when it's right it can be very liberating. I've read a number of testimonies where people found liberation in Christian Universalism,, and I did myself, but they first had to see through the common misperceptions and fake information that surrounds it, that Christian Universalists don't believe in Christ and are heretics etc.

Saint Steven · Sep 12, 2021

Hmm said:
I think that's true and I think often people find themselves in a church where they struggle to accept certain doctrines like ECT because they know in their heart that it isn't right. Their way out, if they do manage to find a way out, is either to find a denomination that suits them better or simply to leave the church altogether. I've been to a few Quaker meetings and they are full of people who couldn't swallow certain teachings that they were subject to, ECT probably being the chief culprit. It's hard to know exactly why we believe what we do but I think intellectual argument is probably responsible for only a very small part of it. Your intellectual understanding still has to be right though because if you're being asked to believe something that is impossible for you to do so it can really screw you up. And on the contrary, when it's right it can be very liberating. I've read a number of testimonies where people found liberation in Christian Universalism,, and I did myself, but they first had to see through the common misperceptions and fake information that surrounds it, that Christian Universalists don't believe in Christ and are heretics etc.

Exactly.
I still attend church, but understand that I was just like these folks not too many years back. And I don't argue with them. I am feeling some distance. Not from God, but from a church that holds a few beliefs that I don't. I clap louder when they say something that fits my beliefs better. - lol

Derf · Sep 12, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Wait... you are using "context" to deny what the verse clearly says. Christ CANNOT be the firstfruits in a verse that lists the firstfruits separately. Otherwise firstfruits is listed TWICE in a sequence. That makes no sense, right?

1 Corinthians 15:23
But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

That’s what the context says, while your way of reading it says that there are some people, who do NOT belong to Jesus, who are resurrected from the dead between the time Jesus was and those that belong to Him are. That verse doesn’t make sense as three groups, just two.

Der Alte · Sep 12, 2021

Hmm said:
Let's take this verse from the OP:

for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:22

Click to expand...

In what way does this not mean that "All mankind will be saved, the righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death"? I would genuinely like to know.

You are NOT reading this through the lens of Jesus because Jesus never says that all mankind will be made alive in Him and neither does this verse.
All die in Adam because all men are direct physical descendants of Adam. But all men are not in Christ.

By reading a verse through the lens of Christ I mean asking yourself if the meaning you're ascribing to it, however informed that may be by scholars and theologians, is consistent with the image of God as perfectly revealed in Jesus. If you don't see anything wrong in the picture of Jesus alongside eternal torment then, as I say, good luck with that, but if you do think there's something wrong then you can always change it by perhaps looking at alternative scholarship.

You have made the fatal mistake of all heterodox religious groups you have a handful of verses which you think support your UR assumptions/presuppositions and you don't look beyond them.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

NOT “in Christ””in Him” NOT gathered together in one.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

NOT “in Christ” NO redemption.

Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

“Walk after the flesh” NOT “in Christ” there IS condemnation.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

NOT “in Christ” NOT free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

NOT “in Christ” NOT a member of the body.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

NOT “in Christ” NO sanctification, NO redemption.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Not “in Christ” old things NOT passed away NOT made new.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

NOT “in Christ” NOT children of God.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

NOT “in Christ” NOT ”made nigh” still far off.

2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

NOT “in Christ” NO promise of life.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

NOT “in Christ” NO salvation.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

NOT “in Christ” NO salvation.

Derf · Sep 12, 2021

Der Alte said:
You are NOT reading this through the lens of Jesus because Jesus never says that all mankind will be made alive in Him and neither does this verse.

But Jesus does say all will be made alive, right? John 5:27-29 (KJV) 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

If the unrighteous are not made alive by His power, whose power resurrects them?

AdamjEdgar · Sep 12, 2021

I would suggest anyone who believes there is salvation for those who have died and during their lifetime did not live their lives according to the examples set by Jesus...read all of Matthew chapter 25. This very clearly illustrates that there is a choice that we must make.
Genesis chapters 6-8 there is a time limit on making that cboice...once the door of the ark was closed, the floodwaters killed everything outside of the ark...there is no life after the judgement of the flood for anyone who did not enter the ark.

We then move onto the story of Sodom and Gomorah...!!!

As the story of the 10 Virgins clearly illustrates, it is only those foolish amongst us who believe that salvation exists for those who do not carry spare oil for their lamps!

Are there further chances after death?

You can call me Steve

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