Biden Drops the Hammer on Unvaccinated

pitabread said:

If you consider the living in the U.S. to be tyranny, are there other countries you don't think are tyrannical? What exactly is your benchmark for tyranny?

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this is where it all begins. Our country has been tyrannical for over 150 yrs now, but its been slowly becoming tyrannical, little by little. Problem is, most people think its all or nothing and that it happens all at once. Tyranny is like a haircut, when you see your hairstyle everyday, you arent aware of its growth. But once you get your haircut, its like wow, my hair was longer than i thought.

as for which other countries offer more freedom, none do. Every other country is just as tyrannical, and in most cases, even moreso than us. But just because we have the least amount of tyranny doesnt mean we are good to go, or that we should stop trying to turn it back.

Lifelong_sinner said:

Our country has been tyrannical for over 150 yrs now, but its been slowly becoming tyrannical, little by little.

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How so? What's the actual benchmark here? How does one determine if a country is tyrannical?

But just because we have the least amount of tyranny doesnt mean we are good to go, or that we should stop trying to turn it back.

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How are you measuring tyranny? What qualifies the U.S. as having less tyranny than other countries?

FWIW, there are freedom indices that are used to measure relative freedoms in countries. However, the U.S. does not rank first in said indices.

Hammster said:

I don’t know enough about other countries to make an assessment. However, if you don’t think that the vaccine mandate is tyrannical, then okay.

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You still haven't explained why you think it is tyrannical? What's your benchmark here?

Hammster said:

It’s tyrannical because it’s not the government’s business to be concerned about how people take care of themselves.

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For anything? The government can never pass laws regarding people's well-being, safety, health, etc.?

I'm just curious where you really draw the line, because in another thread you seemed in support of the new Texas abortion law. Yet here you are complaining about government tyranny when it comes to vaccines.

This does not seem a consistent viewpoint.

pitabread said:

How so? What's the actual benchmark here? How does one determine if a country is tyrannical?



How are you measuring tyranny? What qualifies the U.S. as having less tyranny than other countries?

FWIW, there are freedom indices that are used to measure relative freedoms in countries. However, the U.S. does not rank first in said indices.

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best way to determine if we are becoming more tyrannical is to ask yourself what is the govt doing as govt?? The answer is, making new laws. How many laws do we need as a country?? When are there too many laws??
I look at the amount of freedom our Founders had, and compare that to today. Clearly we have become a nation of laws rather than a nation of freedom.

As far as other countries, the more socialist a nation is, the more tyrannical it is. Its hard to imagine a more socialist area than ANY country in europe. I prefer freedom over being told to fo something by big govt, even if disguised as for my own good.

Lifelong_sinner said:

best way to determine if we are becoming more tyrannical is to ask yourself what is the govt doing as govt?? The answer is, making new laws. How many laws do we need as a country?? When are there too many laws??

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So the number of laws is a measure for tyranny?

If that's the case, then how many laws does it take to make a country tyrannical?

As far as other countries, the more socialist a nation is, the more tyrannical it is. Its hard to imagine a more socialist area than ANY country in europe. I prefer freedom over being told to fo something by big govt, even if disguised as for my own good.

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Would it surprise to you learn that on freedom indices that measure relative amount of freedom in different countries, there are many European countries that rank as more free than the U.S.?

Albion said:

Biden, in an address to the nation, said the unvaccinated "can cause a lot of damage, and they are."

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The truth hurts?

Lifelong_sinner said:

Given that we keep hearing that companies cant get enough people to fill enough positions, how does it make sense to make the situation worse by firing or seeking resignations of the unvaccinated??
Houston methodist hospital lost 153 healthcare workers because they mandated the workers had to be vaccinated. Seems to me, that if things were really that bad, last thing you’d wanna do it make it worse by getting rid of the few workers you have left.

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And Houston Methodist likely replaced those workers with workers from out of state who would not be endangering other workers and patients by their presence.

Albion said:

So, perfectly ordinary citizens who haven't been convicted of anything are NOT having their livelihoods threatened, fines have not been announced, and all the rest that I've heard and read about in the news is untrue??????

Biden, in an address to the nation, said the unvaccinated "can cause a lot of damage, and they are."

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You think that hospitals shouldn't discriminate against unvaccinated employees. We shouldn't discriminate against those who refuse to wear seat belts. We shouldn't discriminate against those who violate a hundred other laws and rules. NONSENSE!

But you are 100% right. The federal government does discriminate against those who violate laws and government regulations. And those entities who receive federal monies are usually required to follow the federal rules associated with those monies.

In the end, if states and their hospitals don't want federal support, they are free to hire the unvaccinated.
Of course, they are subject to be sued by any patient that dies from COVID for their irresponsible rules that are in opposition to federal regulations.
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No one is forced to work at businesses where they disagree with the rules. As far as large companies, it is the companies who are required to take certain actions. They must test their unvaccinated workers every week. The feds have decided that this rule protects other employees. Folks are certainly free to disagree with federal rules. Of course, businesses and individuals are not free to violate such laws.

mark46 said:

You think that hospitals shouldn't discriminate against unvaccinated employees. We shouldn't discriminate against those who refuse to wear seat belts. We shouldn't discriminate against those who violate a hundred other laws and rules. NONSENSE!

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But you are 100% right. The federal government does discriminate against those who violate laws and government regulations. And those entities who receive federal monies are usually required to follow the federal rules associated with those monies.

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In the end, if states and their hospitals don't want federal support, they are free to hire the unvaccinated.

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No one is forced to work at businesses where they disagree with the rules.

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Every nibble that takes a bite out of our Constitutional guarantees of liberty comes equipped with some alibi or airy rationalization. I believe I've made the point before.

Why is it that the Nuremberg Laws keep coming to mind? Oh, the Jews think they should have the right to marry Germans, do they? But that would pollute the genes of future German members of society, so this is a policy that's all for the good. So they want to hire females under age 45 to work in their homes? The government has an obligation, don't you now, to protect young German women from sexual predators! And they don't like having to display the yellow Star of David patch on their coats so the public can know who they're dealing with? What nerve! That policy is the minimum that's required, and those who are objecting to it have an obligation to obey the law!

ETC> ETC>

OPTION ONE
The state and local government should mandate that all students be vaccinated against certain diseases or they cannot attend school.

OPTION TWO
The state and local governments shouldn't violate the freedom of their citizens and should not require vaccinations as a requirement for attendance at school.
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Some states have chosen one option, some the other. When the COVID vaccine is fully approved for high schoolers (12+), then I expect many states to make this a requirement. This would apply to younger children when a vaccine has been fully approved for then.

Until then, the schools have to decide how to best protect their teachers and students. Isolation of the unvaccinated and those who refuse to wear masks is a minimum step for many school districts. Isolation COULD mean special classrooms for them, perhaps in the gym or cafeteria, or perhaps different hours. Or it could mean home learning for those who choose not obey the requirements for attendance. This is no different that sending home a child with a fever, or a child with unacceptable clothing. A school has a right to set rules.

pitabread said:

So the number of laws is a measure for tyranny?

If that's the case, then how many laws does it take to make a country tyrannical?



Would it surprise to you learn that on freedom indices that measure relative amount of freedom in different countries, there are many European countries that rank as more free than the U.S.?

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how many laws? Any more than is necessary. According to wikipedia, since 1789, congress alone has enacted 30,000 laws. Who in their right minds thinks we need that many laws?? And thats just congress, thats not including any laws from the executive branch.

as far as other countries being more free, i’ve found that most people think guaranteed safety by govt is equal to freedom. Look at how many people on this forum are demanding vaccine requirements all in the name of safety over freedom. Most people would be scared if everyone had as much freedom as our Founders did.

Albion said:

Every nibble that takes a bite out of our Constitutional guarantees of liberty comes equipped with some alibi or airy rationalization. I believe I've made the point before.

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Yes, you have the point before. And others have also, in response to almost every rule and law passed by the federal government. For at least 200 years, there have been those who have fought almost all federal laws. Of course, at many times this has led to violence against the federal government.

Lifelong_sinner said:

how many laws? Any more than is necessary. According to wikipedia, since 1789, congress alone has enacted 30,000 laws. Who in their right minds thinks we need that many laws?? And thats just congress, thats not including any laws from the executive branch.

as far as other countries being more free, i’ve found that most people think guaranteed safety by govt is equal to freedom. Look at how many people on this forum are demanding vaccine requirements all in the name of safety over freedom. Most people would be scared if everyone had as much freedom as our Founders did.

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ROFL

You know how many laws our elected officials need?

Of course, at many times this has led to violence against the federal government.

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I wondered how long it would take before the January 6 card was played. Always a sign that the good arguments have all been used up.

mark46 said:

Yes, you have the point before. And others have also, in response to almost every rule and law passed by the federal government. For at least 200 years, there have been those who have fought almost all federal laws. Of course, at many times this has led to violence against the federal government.

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not on topic.