Florida (Tampa) hospitals won't mandate vaccine for workers

RestoreTheJoy said:

That isn't true. We had millions of asymptomatic cases before the vaccine existed. We knew this when we began testing people who were perfectly well who tested positive. No one is talking about immunity, which obviously exists.

It's merely a bald assertion that the vaccine is protecting anyone. Ridiculously, a headline a couple weeks ago said someone died in ICU but doctors said it "would have been much worse if he had not been vaccinated". How much worse can one get than dying in a hospital? That's ludicrous.

Look at all the breakthrough cases; the hospitalizations are rising daily.

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But I'm not talking about asymptomatic cases, I'm talking about the likelihood of vaccinated and unvaccinated from being infected in the first place.

When an infection occurs, then both groups are susceptible to spreading it, but one group is less likely to contract it in the first place.

With regards to breakthrough cases, the hospitalizations and deaths are not equal by any stretch among the two groups.

I've been tracking data for my own state for some time now.

My state is a good example, because we have almost exactly half of our population fully vaccinated and the vaccination rates have been pretty flat for nearly 2 months, so it makes it easier to compare the two groups.










From 8/4 through 9/8
Hospitalizations among unvaccinated have increased by 4,116
Hospitalizations among vaccinated have only increased by 357

Deaths among unvaccinated have increased by 449
Deaths among vaccinated have only increased by 23


In a state where half the population is vaccinated, and half isn't...
Hospitalizations have been increasing 12x faster, and deaths have been increasing 20x faster among the unvaccinated half over the past month.

Clearly the vaccine is offering protective benefits.

No matter which way you want to interpret the data, there's no avoiding the fact.

If the assertion is "The vaccine doesn't help you at all if you catch it", then the fact that those metrics are so much lower among the vaccinated half would have to mean that fewer vaccinated people are catching it. If the assertion is "The vaccine isn't stopping anyone from catching it", then that would have to mean that it's greatly reducing the severity if someone is vaccinated when they catch it.

Given the numbers, there's only 3 potential possibilities
1) It's reducing the number of people who catch it
2) It's reducing the severity for people when they catch
3) It's a blend of both, and it's offering some reduction in contraction and some reduction in severity

"The vaccine does nothing to help" is not a mathematical possibility given the data.

With regards to the natural immunity, while that's certainly a factor that should be discussed, clearly the level of natural immunity among the unvaccinated isn't high enough yet to shift the trajectories when compared to the vaccinated group.

ThatRobGuy said:

But I'm not talking about asymptomatic cases, I'm talking about the likelihood of vaccinated and unvaccinated from being infected in the first place.

When an infection occurs, then both groups are susceptible to spreading it, but one group is less likely to contract it in the first place.

With regards to breakthrough cases, the hospitalizations and deaths are not equal by any stretch among the two groups.

I've been tracking data for my own state for some time now.

My state is a good example, because we have almost exactly half of our population fully vaccinated and the vaccination rates have been pretty flat for nearly 2 months, so it makes it easier to compare the two groups.

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From 8/4 through 9/8
Hospitalizations among unvaccinated have increased by 4,116
Hospitalizations among vaccinated have only increased by 357

Deaths among unvaccinated have increased by 449
Deaths among vaccinated have only increased by 23


In a state where half the population is vaccinated, and half isn't...
Hospitalizations have been increasing 12x faster, and deaths have been increasing 20x faster among the unvaccinated half over the past month.

Clearly the vaccine is offering protective benefits.

No matter which way you want to interpret the data, there's no avoiding the fact.

If the assertion is "The vaccine doesn't help you at all if you catch it", then the fact that those metrics are so much lower among the vaccinated half would have to mean that fewer vaccinated people are catching it. If the assertion is "The vaccine isn't stopping anyone from catching it", then that would have to mean that it's greatly reducing the severity if someone is vaccinated when they catch it.

Given the numbers, there's only 3 potential possibilities
1) It's reducing the number of people who catch it
2) It's reducing the severity for people when they catch
3) It's a blend of both, and it's offering some reduction in contraction and some reduction in severity

"The vaccine does nothing to help" is not a mathematical possibility given the data.

With regards to the natural immunity, while that's certainly a factor that should be discussed, clearly the level of natural immunity among the unvaccinated isn't high enough yet to shift the trajectories when compared to the vaccinated group.

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Or we are vaccinating the completely immune, and calling it a win for the vaccine when they don't get sick, which they were never going to do anyway.

We all know that millions of people simply didn't get sick, even having been exposed. I believe what you say you are seeing in Ohio, but overall someone is definitely playing with the numbers somewhere. And the continuation of completely ignoring natural immunity is mind-boggling.

ThisIsMe123 said:

They aren't completely ignoring natural immunity, they do acknowledge that the combination of natural immunity, coupled with the vaccine makes for a robust immune response with the Delta variant. Otherwise, with only natural immunity, it'll wane rather quickly.

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No, they are completely ignoring natural immunity, or else the dictator in charge would have altered the decree he announced on Thursday, to include the recovered.

That is complete nonsense that natural immunity will wane. You have T cells and memory cells that muster the troops again if the infection ever comes around, with natural immunity, which is robust and long lasting. They are obfuscating on this, to push the shot, pretending that somehow your immune system that already worked needs Pfizer to keep it working. That's false. They are confusing antibody levels with immunity. Antibodies only show for a time after fighting the disease. That's how the body works.

“Last fall, there were reports that antibodies wane quickly after infection with the virus that causes COVID-19, and mainstream media interpreted that to mean that immunity was not long-lived,” said senior author Ali Ellebedy, PhD, an associate professor of pathology & immunology, of medicine and of molecular microbiology. “But that’s a misinterpretation of the data. It’s normal for antibody levels to go down after acute infection, but they don’t go down to zero; they plateau. Here, we found antibody-producing cells in people 11 months after first symptoms. These cells will live and produce antibodies for the rest of people’s lives. That’s strong evidence for long-lasting immunity.”

Good news: Mild COVID-19 induces lasting antibody protection | Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis

ThisIsMe123 said:

Oh, "dictator" you're calling him now. LOL. Vaccine requirements are nothing new.

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A national leader imposing a mandate on ALL private businesses (with over 100 employees) and millions of Americans with zero Constitutional authority is the definition of a dictator.

ThisIsMe123 said:

Now you're just making crap up. Now that everything you post cannot be considered.

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Perhaps you didn't hear the speech.
And perhaps you are not conversant with the limitations on the Executive Branch.

RestoreTheJoy said:

Perhaps you didn't hear the speech.
And perhaps you are not conversant with the limitations on the Executive Branch.

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Biden’s going to have OSHA make additional regulations to force employees to protect workers from injuries, disease, and death. This is something Congress authorized OSHA to do.

RestoreTheJoy said:

No, they are completely ignoring natural immunity, or else the dictator in charge would have altered the decree he announced on Thursday, to include the recovered.

That is complete nonsense that natural immunity will wane. You have T cells and memory cells that muster the troops again if the infection ever comes around, with natural immunity, which is robust and long lasting. They are obfuscating on this, to push the shot, pretending that somehow your immune system that already worked needs Pfizer to keep it working. That's false. They are confusing antibody levels with immunity. Antibodies only show for a time after fighting the disease. That's how the body works.

“Last fall, there were reports that antibodies wane quickly after infection with the virus that causes COVID-19, and mainstream media interpreted that to mean that immunity was not long-lived,” said senior author Ali Ellebedy, PhD, an associate professor of pathology & immunology, of medicine and of molecular microbiology. “But that’s a misinterpretation of the data. It’s normal for antibody levels to go down after acute infection, but they don’t go down to zero; they plateau. Here, we found antibody-producing cells in people 11 months after first symptoms. These cells will live and produce antibodies for the rest of people’s lives. That’s strong evidence for long-lasting immunity.”

Good news: Mild COVID-19 induces lasting antibody protection | Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis

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The flu occurs, in one or more strains, every single year. Some people become ill every single year with the flu. Many people receive the flu vaccine every single year. TDaP has been the same vaccine for decades. A tetanus shot is required every 5 years if you injure yourself (needle stick, cut while outdoors, etc) or every 10 years with no injury (last I checked). Why is it not one and done for those if immunity does not wane? Why are people not screaming about these "completely unnecessary boosters"?

Where is the outcry for annual, mandatory flu shots for employees in the healthcare system? Apparently, hospital personnel should have been boycotting the flu shot long ago as, according to this theory, it is completely unnecessary after you receive one vaccine or are ill from for every strain. TDaP boosters? Totally necessary.

"Boycott TDaP and flu vaccine!!! The hospital management is trying to control and poison you!!! Sue when you are fired!!!!!"

But, this is not happening......hmmmmmm. Gee, I wonder if this has anything with someone turning Covid into a political issue rather a medical issue, whereas flu, tetanus, Diptheria and pertussis are still considered medical issues by the masses.

ETA: interestingly enough, the flu vaccine contains usually three of the same four strains every single year, but people still get one every year without screaming conspiracy.

Historical annual reformulations of the influenza vaccine - Wikipedia

chevyontheriver said:

If we are no longer a free country then we can have mandates.

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Vaccine mandates have existed in the U.S. for over a hundred years. It's not a new thing.

For example, Florida has vaccine requirements for daycares, school attendance, etc: School Immunization Requirements | Florida Department of Health

If this is somehow an affront to freedom, then the U.S. hasn't been a free country for over a century.

RestoreTheJoy said:

A national leader imposing a mandate on ALL private businesses (with over 100 employees) and millions of Americans with zero Constitutional authority is the definition of a dictator.

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No, it's not.

pitabread said:

Vaccine mandates have existed in the U.S. for over a hundred years. It's not a new thing.

For example, Florida has vaccine requirements for daycares, school attendance, etc: School Immunization Requirements | Florida Department of Health

If this is somehow an affront to freedom, then the U.S. hasn't been a free country for over a century.

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Indeed the Supreme Court said in the early 1900's that vaccine mandates were fine when it came to public health

ThisIsMe123 said:

Because the difference between your examples and Covid is that, well, we are in a GLOBAL PANDEMIC with a HIGHLY contagious virus.

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The fact of the pandemic should make people less likely to complain about the mandatory Covid vaccine, but it does not. People do not complain about the flu vaccine or scream they have a natural immunity to the flu, yet they cry conspiracy over the covid vaccine and tout they must have natural immunity to it.

IMO, the difference between the response to mandatory flu vaccines every year and mandatory covid vaccines every year is Covid was turned into a political issue early on but flu is still considered a medical issue.

GreatLakes4Ever said:

Biden’s going to have OSHA make additional regulations to force employees to protect workers from injuries, disease, and death. This is something Congress authorized OSHA to do.

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OSHA can do Biden's bidding all day long. When the rubber hits the road, things are going to change, as NO employer is going to voluntarily take the liability, once they understand it.

"If an employer requires its employees to be vaccinated, adverse reactions to the vaccines are considered “work-related” by OSHA. Employers who require COVID-19 vaccines must notify OSHA within 24 hours of an employee’s inpatient hospitalization (or within eight hours of an employee’s death) resulting from an adverse reaction.

For employers subject to OSHA’s recordkeeping requirements, if the adverse reaction meets other general recording criteria (e.g., days away from work, restricted work or transfer to another job, or medical treatment beyond first aid), the reaction must be recorded on the employer’s OSHA 300 log, even if it does not lead to hospitalization. For example, if an employee uses a sick day because of fever and chills following administration of the vaccine, the reaction must be recorded. On the other hand, if an employee merely requires over-the-counter medication to ease soreness at the injection site, the action need not be recorded.

Employers who merely recommend vaccination do not need to record adverse reactions or report hospitalizations due to those adverse reactions, even if the employer facilitates employees’ access to the vaccine."

...

"Note that for this discretion to apply, the vaccine must be truly voluntary. For example, an employee’s choice to accept or reject the vaccine cannot affect their performance rating or professional advancement. An employee who chooses not to receive the vaccine cannot suffer any repercussions from this choice. If employees are not free to choose whether or not to receive the vaccine without fearing adverse action, then the vaccine is not merely “recommended” and employers should consult the above FAQ regarding COVID-19 vaccines that are a condition of employment."

Mayzoo said:

Where is the outcry for annual, mandatory flu shots for employees in the healthcare system? Apparently, hospital personnel should have been boycotting the flu shot long ago as, according to this theory, it is completely unnecessary after you receive one vaccine or are ill from for every strain. TDaP boosters? Totally necessary.

"Boycott TDaP and flu vaccine!!! The hospital management is trying to control and poison you!!! Sue when you are fired!!!!!"

But, this is not happening......hmmmmmm. Gee, I wonder if this has anything with someone turning Covid into a political issue rather a medical issue, whereas flu, tetanus, Diptheria and pertussis are still considered medical issues by the masses.

ETA: interestingly enough, the flu vaccine contains usually three of the same four strains every single year, but people still get one every year without screaming conspiracy.

Historical annual reformulations of the influenza vaccine - Wikipedia

Click to expand...

Actually less than half of Americans (anyway) ever get a flu shot at all. The percentage of adults each year has fluctuated, reaching a high of 43.6% in 2014 and a low of 37.1% in 2017, the most recent year with available data.

So since a third to a half are getting it, and no one is threatening people with loss of livelihood or any other insane thing, yeah, you are not going to hear about it. People who voluntarily take it either feel it does or it does not help, and decide each year whether to do it again. Some health care places require it; others do not.

Some people do indeed do the same thing over and over. Others have never had a flu shot and never have the flu. At least we have recognized personal agency over one's medical decisions in this area, for the most part.